Claim: UFO's May Be Stealth Aliens Living in Caves, on the Dark Side of the Moon or Alaska

NorCal Dave

Senior Member.
In another thread we had a discussion about pareidolia and the role it played in explaining anomalous things like The Face on Mars. That discussion was generated by a paper that claimed among other things, pareidolia was bias, or at least the use of it can be. The author's suggested something like, just because the Face on Mars can be explained by pareidolia, maybe it shouldn't be. Using pareidolia as an explanation might hide the fact that there really is a Face on Mars and if there is a Face on Mars someone/thing must have built it. So, using pareidolia as an explanation keeps us from seeing the evidence for UFO/aliens. I think.

Thread found here: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/claim-pareidolia-is-bias.13498/page-2#post-317168

That claim was part of a larger claim from the paper:

The cryptoterrestrial hypothesis: A case for scientific openness to a concealed earthly explanation for Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena

https://www.researchgate.net/public...lanation_for_Unidentified_Anomalous_Phenomena

Note: As is often the case when copying from some PDF sources, it gets kinda wonky when pasted here. All External Content below from the paper linked above unless otherwise noted. And the authors use various terms like NHI (Non Human Intelligence) or cryptoterrestrials and such, I'm just calling them what they are, aliens.

In a nutshell, psychology researchers Tim Lomas and Breandan Case of the Human Flourishing Program, Harvard University along with Michael P. Masters, a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech, argue that we should seriously consider the possibility that aliens are already here and have been. They may be living in the oceans, in caves, in remote areas of the world, on the Moon or Mars or even stealthily in your own town:

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This is the ultraterrestrial hypothesis, which includes as a subset the “cryptoterrestrial”
hypothesis, namely the notion that UAP may reflect activities of intelligent beings concealed in stealth
here on Earth (e.g., underground), and/or its near environs (e.g., the moon), and/or even “walking
among us” (e.g., passing as humans). Although this idea is likely to be regarded sceptically by most
scientists, such are the nature of some UAP that we argue this possibility should not be summarily
dismissed, and instead deserves genuine consideration in a spirit of epistemic humility and openness.
The authors go on to quote the usual suspects, with Hal Puthoff and Jaques Vallee from the old guard and David Grutsch and Karl Nell from recent times. Without getting into all the details, these quotes amount to a "sum is greater than the parts" argument with the added weight of the US government being involved. Basically, UAPs have been seen forever, even today we can't explain them all and the government is looking into them. Therefore, there is something non-prosaic about many UAPs so we need to consider all possible explanations equally, including their hypothesis that "stealth" aliens are and/or were here:

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This denotes a broad category of conjecture centred around the possibility that UAP may involve forms of non-human intelligence (NHI) that are already present in Earth’s environment in some sense, which Puthoff (2022) describes as “sequestered terrestrial cultures… existing alongside us in distinct stealth.”
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For centuries, people worldwide have observed aerial phenomena that seemed “anomalous” in some way, some of which crucially we today – even with our more advanced technologies and scientific understanding – might still regard as extraordinary (Vallée, 2008; Lomas & Case, 2023)
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Moreover, in June 2023 explosive “whistleblowing” claims were made publicly by David Grusch – a veteran of the National Reconnaissance Office and National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency4 – who alleged that the US government and private aerospace companies had for decades maintained a secret “crash retrieval” and “reverse engineering” program (Kean & Blumenthal, 2023). At the time of writing there is no way to know the validity of his claims.
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. For example, Retired Army Colonel Karl Nell – who served alongside Grusch in the UAP Task Force – said “His assertion concerning the existence of a terrestrial arms race occurring subrosa over the past 80 years focused on reverse engineering technologies of unknown origin is fundamentally correct” (von Rennenkampff, 2023)
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A less well known but perhaps even more striking case was divulged by Lue Elizondo (2021a) – a former intelligence officer closely linked to US investigations into UAP
And is becoming more common lately, we again have Puthoff as one of the original instigators for the authors basic premise:

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Consider Puthoff’s claim that there could be an “ancient occult group, isolated pre-Diluvial high-tech society… existing alongside us in distinct stealth.”
As @Giddierone suggested in the afore mentioned thread about pareidolia, this paper may be part of a larger effort by UFOlogist to publish as many papers as possible in various journals in an attempt to legitimize UAP/UFO studies. Something akin to the "Teach the Controversy" ploy used by creationists here in the US back in the '90s. The creationists logic was "If evolution cannot be totally and completely proven, then there is room for other theories like Intelligent Design". Of course, Intelligent Design actually meant the God of the Bible. Here it seems to be, "If each and every UAP cannot be proven to be prosaic, then there's room for other non-prosaic explanations." We're not saying it's aliens, but it's aliens.

The problem these folks run into is they have no actual UAP/UFOs or aliens to study. It's a bit like publishing papers and having discussions about Angels and Deamons. Nobody can produce an actual Angle or Deamon, so they talk about what other people claim to have seen or experienced. Same thing here, as the authors try to make the case that aliens might be living in caves or in secret bases under and in the Earth. They have no actual evidence of this however and that can lead to some issues, like this paragraph that jumped out at me from 1/2 way through the paper. After first suggesting the idea that UAP might come from inside the Earth:

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However, other people speculate that some UAP might not only be drawn to such locales (e.g., as a portal, or for purposes such as hiding or gatheringenergy), but might come from underground (i.e., with the NHI responsible residing in a subterranean way).
They explain how this idea might have originated, including the writings of Richard Shaver:

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Then, building on this possibility, people have speculated these realms could potentially host ancient civilizations – whether human or some other species – which chose to conceal themselves there. Among the earliest modern proponents of this idea is the writer Richard Shaver. According to Ray Palmer (1975), editor of Amazing Stories magazine, Shaver argued in a 10,000-word manifesto that advanced prehistoric races had built cities inside Earth but fled to another planet due to concerns about radiation damage from the Sun, leaving a cohort of offspring who remained underground. Palmer revised the manuscript and published it as “I Remember Lemuria!” in the March 1945 issue of Amazing Stories, a tale which became the foundation for a genre of science fiction on this theme. Although many people condemned Shaver’s narrative as a “hoax” (Dash, 2000), he and Palmer continued to maintain its veracity. Furthermore, over the years, UAP scholars have begun to contemplate similar ideas in relation to the burgeoning UAP observations, most notably John Keel (1983), who – without believing Shaver per se – was persuaded of the notion of cryptoterrestrials living underground.
Most notably is this line from the above paragraph:

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Although many people condemned Shaver’s narrative as a “hoax” (Dash, 2000), he and Palmer continued to maintain its veracity.
I'm reading that as "maybe it wasn't a hoax" or "maybe Shaver was on to something". It certainly doesn't come out and say "It's just a story". Which is what it was. These guys seem to be using what is collectively known as The Shaver Mysteries as possible evidence for their claim?

Briefly, Richard Shaver claimed that his welding set up at work could transmit other people's thoughts:
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Shaver "began to notice that one of the welding guns on his job site, 'by some freak of its coil's field atunements', was allowing him to hear the thoughts of the men working around him. More frighteningly, he then received the telepathic record of a torture session conducted by malevolent entities in caverns deep within the earth."
And a whole host of other things were told/transmitted to him, including the make up of the various people/aliens living inside the Earth:

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Those ancients also abandoned some of their own offspring here, a minority of whom remained noble and human "Teros", while most degenerated over time into a population of mentally impaired sadists known as "Deros"—short for "detrimental robots". Shaver's "robots" were not mechanical constructs, but were robot-like due to their savage behavior.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sharpe_Shaver

One could go on for pages with The Shaver Mysteries, but most people recognize now that Shaver suffered from some mental health issues and that Ray Palmer was both a friend and exploiter of him. His writing was possibly cathartic for Shaver, and Palmer would rework them to sell his magazines, claiming that it was all true (wink, wink). Shaver later went on to publish books about rocks he thought contained all kinds of writings and messages (pareidolia) as noted by @Giddierone in the pareidolia thread.

Why any academic paper would mention Shavers writings as anything but literary background is strange. But the authors go on to cite John Keel, famous for his Mothman Prophecies, as confirming, or at least legitimizing Shaver's claims, even if he didn't quite believe them:

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Furthermore, over the years, UAP scholars have begun to contemplate similar ideas in relation to the burgeoning UAP observations, most notably John Keel (1983), who – without believing Shaver per se – was persuaded of the notion of cryptoterrestrials living underground.

Indeed, in an article titled “Secret UFO bases across the U.S.”, Keel (1968) suggested that the idea of such entities being responsible for UAP was more reasonable than the extraterrestrial hypothesis (ETH) which was gaining some momentum at that time. Given that UAP have “been consistently active in the same areas for many years,” he argues “it is quite reasonable to speculate that these objects originate in some unknown manner from these areas, rather than traversing great spatial distances to make brief random and apparently pointless “visits.” In short, many of the thousands of observed “flying saucers” and “spook lights” are more apt to be a part of the Earth's environment than extraterrestrial craft flying in from some distant point” (p.9)
Further supporting the idea that aliens live underground is information from Nick Redfern:

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in his book The NASA Conspiracies, for example, Redfern (2011) includes an interview with someone seemingly associated with the Gemini program who claimed there was a small band of individuals who represent the last vestiges of an ancient advanced, isolated civilization – responsible for the legends of Atlantis and similar stories – forced by circumstances to retreat into remote sequestered locales for survival.
And the notion that Einstein talked to the Roswell aliens who told him they lived underground:

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Indeed, comparable testimony continues to emerge that lends further support to the CTH. An example is the apparent testimony of Dr Shirley Wright, Albert Einstein’s assistant in 1947. Speaking in 1993 – in recordings which only became public in 2021 – Wright claimed she and Einstein had helped investigate the famous Roswell UAP crash (Verma, 2023c). Incredibly, she said this was not only a genuine UAP, but that biological entities had survived the crash and were subjected to questioning. Most relevantly here, she suggested these were actually “just humans, but an advanced form,” and as Verma summarizes it, that many of their “species” actually “reside underground on our planet.”
Shaver, Keel, Redfern an old recording of Eistien assistant, not exactly compelling evidence. Nevertheless, after piling up these dubious claims, we once again find the UFOlogist making the reverse burden of proof argument (bold by me):

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We are not arguing that UAP do have a cryptoterrestrial explanation, but simply that they could, and the judicious approach is to consider all valid theories until the evidence decisively demonstrates they should be rejected.
So, once again, the UFOlogists have made a claim with little to no evidence, but until that claim can be decisively countered, it's as valid as any other claim. The UFOlogist need not prove their point, only say that the skeptic can disprove it, thereby proving for them. I'll read through some more latter.
 
It's amazing that "psychology researchers" wouldn't prefer the far-less-complicated scenario that it's all just human psychology. Or, as Feynman famously put it:
feynman on UFOs.jpeg
 
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which Puthoff (2022) describes as “sequestered terrestrial cultures… existing alongside us in distinct stealth.”
Like you say in your last sentence, how can you even study/critique something like this? It's a combination of a self-sealing belief and moving goal posts.
 
The source paper is also surprisingly unimaginative, given the subject material. It's saying "Well, everyone else thinks it could be only humans or extraterrestrials aliens behind this (ill-defined but totally material) phenomenon, but what if it's the only possible third option, crypto-humans?)"

Why not demons? Why not it being us living in a simulation? What if there's just one immortal mesmerist going around making people believe they saw something? Communists with a crystal skull? What if it's hoaxes all the way down?

It's a Pascal's Wager argument for shoehorning one and only one additional option in the discussion. Pascal's Wager -- that you're better off believing in God because there's no downside -- only makes sense in the context of Pascal defining "believing in God" as embracing a narrow Catholic view of Christianity and excluding all other forms of Christianity and other beliefs as possibilities.
 
I like to think it's Leprechauns.

Darby O'Gill and the Little People was one of my favorite movies as a kid; right up there with the Thief of Bagdad and Jason and the Argonauts.

For that matter I prefer djinn or greek gods over Shaver's "detrimental robots" who kidnap humans for torture and food.
 
So, once again, the UFOlogists have made a claim with little to no evidence, but until that claim can be decisively countered, it's as valid as any other claim.
Yeah, no. Claims without evidence are not valid at all. (I know you're paraphrasing here.)
Falsifiable hypotheses that expand human knowledge is where it's at.
Imaginative writing is entertainment, not science.
 
Let's talk turkey...

(Full disclosure: I asked GPT-4 to write this text, to save time.)

My Prompt: Someone argues that there is an unknown civilization, native to Earth, that lives underground. They argue that while there is little evidence for this, no one can prove this civilization doesn't exist. What is the fallacy?

GPT-4: The fallacy in this argument is known as the Argument from Ignorance (or Appeal to Ignorance). This fallacy occurs when someone claims that something is true because it has not been proven false, or vice versa. In this case, the argument asserts that the existence of an unknown underground civilization must be considered possible or true simply because it cannot be definitively disproven.

Here’s a breakdown of the fallacy:

Assertion without Evidence: The claim is made that an unknown underground civilization exists without providing substantial evidence to support it.
Shifting the Burden of Proof: The argument shifts the burden of proof to others, suggesting that unless someone can prove this civilization doesn't exist, it should be considered possible or true.
In logical reasoning, the burden of proof lies with the person making a claim. Without evidence to support the existence of an underground civilization, the claim remains unsubstantiated, regardless of whether it can be disproven.

Second prompt: This same person claims that skeptics who point out the flaws in the underground civilization idea are suffering from confirmation bias. The skeptics can't accept the idea because it is not part of main stream belief and they are reflexively conservative. What is the fallacy?

GPT-4: The fallacy in this argument is known as Ad Hominem (specifically a type known as Ad Hominem Circumstantial). This fallacy occurs when someone attacks the character or motives of the person making an argument rather than addressing the argument itself. In this case, the person is attacking the skeptics by claiming they are suffering from confirmation bias and are reflexively conservative, rather than addressing the skeptics' actual criticisms of the underground civilization idea.

Here's a breakdown of the fallacy:

Attack on Character/Motives: Instead of providing evidence to support the claim of an underground civilization, the argument attacks the skeptics' character or motives, suggesting they are biased or unable to accept ideas outside of mainstream beliefs.
Avoidance of Addressing the Argument: By focusing on the alleged bias of the skeptics, the argument avoids addressing the actual points raised by the skeptics regarding the lack of evidence for the underground civilization.
In logical reasoning, it's important to address the content of an argument rather than the character or motivations of the people making the argument. This ensures that discussions remain focused on the evidence and reasoning relevant to the claim.
 
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I asked GPT-4 to write this text, to save time.)
Funny you should mention that. For what it's worth I think these papers are written using something similar to Chat GPT. Especially the Sol Foundation papers. They simply have a spreadsheet of references and prompt it to write a paper supporting a particualr thesis. [opinion].
 
Remind me, which is the Dark Side of the Moon?
Right. One assumes they mean the far side of the Moon, but this kind of thing reveals how poorly the person is thinking things through. It's like, sure it's pedantic to call out 9/11 Truthers for saying "freefall speed" instead of "freefall acceleration," but the term reveals that they aren't thinking seriously and carefully about the things they're talking (very very confidently) about.

BTW this is like a different kind of Low-Information Zone — a physical location that we have little information about, so folks imagine that all sorts of things they fancy might be living there. People are very strange.
 
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While I have not read the full paper yet, from the conclusion it doesn't seem to be claiming too strongly that cryptoterrestrials are a clear answer to the UFO "phenomenon"

This paper has made the case for taking seriously the CTH as a potential explanation for UAP, while noting that it probably ranks lower than other hypotheses, such as the extraterrestrial explanation, although such calculations are hard to quantify. To be precise, the material above actually contains four different CTHs.
All four CTHs are far-fetched on their face; we entertain them here because some aspects of UAP are strange enough that they seem to call for unconventional explanations. Most investigations of UAP todate have focused on the ETH, which does have several lines of evidence in its favor (Lomas, 2024).

The paper itself just feels like the authors got paid/asked to make a paper on why cryptoterrestrials are not bogus and the best they could come up with is a stretch of why they can't be ruled out that boils down to "you can't prove they don't exist so you have to consider they might even if absurd", they clearly don't think much of their answer if they repeatedly state that extraterrestrials are a better answer.


As a side note, where does the dark side of the moon mention come from?

The paper itself does not really mention "the dark side of the moon", outside of the term being part of a link in the references. When they do mention the moon in the paper they just say "the moon", and at one instance they say
A third site of intrigue is the moon, and particularly its “far” side, which remains perennially hidden from view.
 
I think the "dark side" thing is a bit of a distraction. The dark side of the moon is a common term for the far side -- dark not in terms of being deprived of light, but in terms of being hidden from us here on Earth.

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The far side of the Moon is the lunar hemisphere that always faces away from Earth, ... The hemisphere has sometimes been called the "Dark side of the Moon", where "dark" means "unknown" instead of "lacking sunlight" – each location on the Moon experiences two weeks of sunlight while the opposite location experiences night.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far_Side_of_the_Moon

and

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The ‘dark side’ of the Moon refers to the hemisphere of the Moon that is facing away from the Earth. In reality it is no darker than any other part of the Moon’s surface as sunlight does in fact fall equally on all sides of the Moon. It is only ‘dark’ to us, as that hemisphere can never be vieandwed from Earth due to a phenomenon known as ‘Tidal Locking’.
They go on to say:
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A better term for the side we don’t see is the ‘far side’, rather than the ‘dark side’, which leads to all kinds of misconceptions.
Source: https://www.spacecentre.co.uk/news/space-now-blog/the-dark-side-of-the-moon/

with which I'd agree. But "dark side of the moon" is an traditional and established way to name the hemisphere that we don't get to look at.
 
As @NorCal Dave posted, quoting the Lomas, Case, Masters paper
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Consider Puthoff’s claim that there could be an “ancient occult group, isolated pre-Diluvial high-tech society… existing alongside us in distinct stealth.”
(My emphasis).

If by "pre-Diluvial" the authors mean "antediluvian", and it's hard to think it could mean anything else in this context, and they think that's an acceptable term to use as an indicator of age or a period of time in a science paper, I don't have much faith in them as scientists.
Suspicions confirmed on further reading of the paper, with copious woo, a heavy reliance on taking the accounts of known UFO enthusiasts at face value whatever the predictive or real world validity of their claims (or indeed their track record), and a wilful inability to consider vastly more likely hypotheses.

Assuming this isn't some massive in-joke or an exercise in exposing poor journal standards (like the Sokal affair, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair) this is junk science. It isn't real science, or philosophy, and I hope that no public funds were wasted in any way to support the author's work re. this paper.

Someone needs to start a register of journals that publish clearly junk papers like this one (not just fringe theories, which might be testable, or contentious opinions- junk).
 
I suspect there a number of things going on here. As noted in the OP, @Giddierone suggested that there may be a concerted, though not necessarily orchestrated, attempt to make UFO/UAP studies more mains stream by publishing various papers in various journals.

Some are more "stealth", like the aliens in this particular paper, such as the Nolan-Vallee paper Improved instrumental techniques, including isotopic analysis, applicable to the characterization of unusual materials with potential relevance to aerospace forensics. The title only hints at "unusual materials" when in fact the paper is 1/2 a rehash of Vallee's UFO investigation from years ago and 1/2 Nolan testing pieces of the supposed UFO material Vallee collected. It's a full UFO paper. Discussed in this thread: https://www.metabunk.org/threads/is...vallee-jiang-lemke-2022-a-useful-paper.13286/

This paper in question is much more upfront, but I suspect is also serving another purpose. I see it as a bit of a trial balloon for the CHT, as they call it, to show how it answers a lot of the skeptic's questions. The CHT does away with the problem of faster than light travel, or at least pushes it into the far past, as the aliens are here and have been. They also use it to answer other questions, like why would advanced aliens with advanced technology be hanging around nuke missiles in the '60s, because they live here too and are worried. A work around for the traditional ET from Zeta Reticula.

I think another option is the overall repeating of claims until they're taken as true. Here is another paper referancing a number of UFOlosgist and there various claims. Including, Garry Nolan:

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In an interview with Nolan on Spotlight (2022), Coulthart posed a similar question to the one he asked Grusch, and received a comparably ambiguous answer: “You believe, on the evidence, that there is a non-human intelligence, of advanced technology, on this planet?” Nolan replied: “Advanced capabilities. No, I don’t know whether it’s a technology per se, because I’m leaving open the idea that it’s some form of consciousness that is non-material. And I know, say to my colleagues out there, this sounds absolutely crazy. But if you’ve seen the things that I’ve seen, you would only be able to come to a similar conclusion.”
Karl Nell:

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Indeed, at a public talk in May 2024, Nell was even more unequivocal, stating, “So, non-human intelligence exists, non-human intelligence has been interacting with humanity. This interaction is not new, and it's been ongoing, and unelected people in the government are aware of that” (Sharp, 2024)
David Grusch:

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Interviewed by Ross Coulthart on News Nation (2023), when asked if the government had been “concealing the existence on this planet of alien life,” he pointedly clarified, “I would couch it as “non-human intelligence”… [because] I don’t necessarily want to denote origin. I don’t think we have all the data to say, “Oh, they’re coming from a certain location.”” Moreover, in another interview, Grusch (2023) made some intriguing comments about the NHI involved with the alleged crash retrieval program being “actually not that much more advanced than you and I,” saying, “If I was a betting man, some of these NHI, they’re similarly as advanced as us but they just made … asymmetric evolution or whatever. They went a different path. Where we made nuclear weapons and stuff, they ended up making this civil propulsion kind of equivalent discovery where they’re able to do this now.”
Tim Gallaudet:

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Similarly, Retired Admiral Tim Gallaudet (2024b), former head of the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration – the federal agency tasked with monitoring oceanic and atmospheric conditions – said in a recent interview: “I am totally convinced that we're experiencing a non-human, higher intelligence. I am completely convinced because I know the people who were in the government programs, the Legacy programs, that oversaw both the crash retrieval and just the analysis of UAP data. And I'm very confident in these people - former intelligence, former DoD - and we are working as a team, behind the scenes, to advance disclosure.”
None of these people ever offer any evidence for their claims aside from some sort of "trust me bro" type response. But the point here is to just keep pounding away and get these views and claims into the mainstream.

As @jdog and @Z.W. Wolf noted above, like a lot of UFOlogy, the authors set up a false dichotomy that then is used to make fallacious Argument from Ignorance claims:

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Essentially, the discourse around UAP is dominated by two main classes of explanation: a conventional terrestrial origin (e.g., human technology), or an extraterrestrial origin (i.e., advanced civilizations arriving from elsewhere).
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Indeed, the philosopher Bernado Kastrup (2024) recently argued that a version of the CTH was – despite its seemingly outlandish, unlikely, and “far out” nature – the “most reasonable scenario” for UAP and NHI.
Misidentified planets and stars, meteors and a whole host of natural non-technological explanations are not even considered and there is no mention of hoaxes, something that does happen. In addition is the UFOlogical cliche that scientists don't study UFO/UAPs seriously when they should:

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Fundamentally, UAP constitute an extraordinary empirical mystery, which science is surely obligated to investigate, yet has rarely done so (at least in an open, public, visible way), especially when it comes to these more unconventional ultraterrestrial hypotheses.
Something that is a bit hard when there are no actual UFO/UAPs to study.

It's going to take some time to go through the rest of this paper and pull out useful bits, but here are a few more. First for Mr. Wolf:
I like to think it's Leprechauns.

Entirely possible, so you're in luck (bold by me):

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1. CTH1: Human cryptoterrestrials. A technologically advanced ancient human civilization that was largely destroyed long ago (e.g., by flood), but continued to exist in remnant form.

2. CTH2: Hominid or theropod cryptoterrestrials. A technologically advanced non-human civilization consisting of some terrestrial animal which evolved to live in stealth (e.g., underground), perhaps a hominid, or alternatively a species much more distantly related to us (e.g., descendants of unknown, intelligent dinosaurs).

3. CTH3: Former extraterrestrial or extratempestrial cryptoterrestrials. Extraterrestrial aliens or our intertemporal descendants who “arrived” on Earth from elsewhere in the cosmos or from the human future, respectively, and concealed themselves in stealth.

4. CTH4: Magical Cryptoterrestrials. Entities which are less like homegrown aliens and more like earthbound angels, relating to the world inhabited by humans in ways that (at least from our present perspective) are less technological than magical, who are known in European languages by names like fairies, elves, nymphs, etc.

And nearer to myself in Northern California, there is Mt Shasta home of the Lemurians:

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That said, certain locales have attracted considerable interest as potential places to which an advanced civilization may have retreated, and moreover have even accrued reports of engagement with their members. Among the most well-known is Mount Shasta, a currently dormant volcano in the Cascade Range in California.

Long revered as sacred by indigenous tribes of the region (Hall & Hall, 2004), more recently it has also become a magnet for “non-indigenous spiritual pilgrims” (Huntsinger & Fernández‐Giménez, 2000). One contributing factor to the latter are stories emerging in the early 20th century linking it to the myth of Lemuria (see endnote 21), suggesting that before this legendary civilization disappeared beneath the ocean, some survivors trekked over land to the American continent and eventually took refuge inside the mountain29.

Of course, these stories are most likely nothing more than imaginative fictions or embellished rumours. Sceptics would surely point to the appeal of occult philosophies during that era, viewing these narratives perhaps as literary attempts to capitalize on these trends. However, Mt. Shasta continues to be notorious for unusual activity, which helps explain its growing appeal to spiritual pilgrims. Relatedly, the mountain is also infamous for numerous mysterious disappearances, in which people have gone missing without a trace (Srivastava, 2021).
The authors relate that the underground city of the Lemurians is "most likely nothing more than imaginative fiction" without giving the actual title to the book that IS fiction and created the Lemurian-Shasta connection. "Most likely"?! The book is called A Dweller on Two Planets written by Fredrick Spenser Oliver in his late teens at the end of the 19th century. It was published in 1915 and set the stage for Mt. Shasta and woo. But as the authors note, even if it's "most likely" fiction, weird stuff does happen at Mt Shasta.

A side note, a friend's ex-wife and big time woo person goes up the Mt. Shasta to watch the UFOs or beings or whatever. Apparently, one sees much more "high strangeness" near the mountain when consuming 'shrooms (psilocybin).

As a side note, where does the dark side of the moon mention come from?

My bad, in the paper they use "far side of the Moon" as noted above, but the Daily Mail article which covered this paper and where I started, used the term "dark side of the Moon", so when I went from the article to the actual paper, the term stuck (bold by me):

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not to mention unexplored caves and the dark side of the moon, they argue there's plenty of space for a 'stealth' civilization.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/science...d-scientists-reveal-secret-bases-located.html
 
Someone needs to start a register of journals that publish clearly junk papers like this one (not just fringe theories, which might be testable, or contentious opinions- junk).
There's a list in Nature, but it's behind a paywall. Here's the abstract:
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Hundreds of ‘predatory’ journals indexed on leading scholarly database​

Scopus has stopped adding content from most of the flagged titles, but the analysis highlights how poor-quality science is infiltrating literature.​

08 February 2021

The widely used academic database Scopus hosts papers from more than 300 potentially ‘predatory’ journals that have questionable publishing practices, an analysis has found1. Together, these titles contributed more than 160,000 articles over three years — almost 3% of the studies indexed on Scopus during the period. Their presence on Scopus and other popular research databases raises concerns that poor-quality studies could mislead scientists and pollute the scientific literature.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-00239-0

Given the date, I'd imagine this would need to be updated regularly.

I'm reminded of a previous thread on UFOs, wherein someone, in response to the often-repeated mantra that the UFO-meaning-extraterrestrial viewers "can't all be wrong", pointed out that if there ARE no extraterrestrials visiting earth, then yes, they can all be wrong. I hang my head in shame for forgetting who said it. It might have been @FatPhil.
 
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I suspect there a number of things going on here. As noted in the OP, @Giddierone suggested that there may be a concerted, though not necessarily orchestrated, attempt to make UFO/UAP studies more mains stream by publishing various papers in various journals.
This paper in question is much more upfront, but I suspect is also serving another purpose. I see it as a bit of a trial balloon for the CHT, as they call it, to show how it answers a lot of the skeptic's questions.
The paper in OP kind of walks back the CTH(s) in the conclusion, and Lomas cites his own paper on the ETH:

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This paper has made the case for taking seriously the CTH as a potential explanation for UAP, while noting that it probably ranks lower than other hypotheses, such as the extraterrestrial explanation, although such calculations are hard to quantify. To be precise, the material above actually contains four different CTHs. [...]
All four CTHs are far-fetched on their face; we entertain them here because some aspects of UAP are strange enough that they seem to call for unconventional explanations. Most investigations of UAP to-date have focused on the ETH, which does have several lines of evidence in its favor (Lomas, 2024).
Nonetheless, the ETH does not exhaust the possible accounts of UAP. Given how little is known about these strange phenomena, it seems prudent to keep every line of inquiry – including the various CTHs – in play. Indeed, this is a fitting summary of the CTH: it may be exceedingly improbable, but hopefully this paper has shown it should nevertheless be kept on the table as we seek to understand the ongoing empirical mystery of UAP.
Lomas' ETH paper cited above: The Extraterrestrial Hypothesis: A Case for Scientific Openness to an Interstellar Explanation for
Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena

I kind of wonder if the idea with this paper is to just reinforce the idea that there really is some mystery to UAPs that cannot be accounted for by prosaic explanations, and then offer ridiculous CTH hypotheses while offering the ETH as the only other (and more likely) explanation. Which would allow people to feel like they were thinking critically and rationally in rejecting the CTH(s) and push them towards accepting the ETH.

By analogy: "My lawn is wet: acient reptoids from inside the hollow earth may have watered it, or it could be the sprinklers, but let's keep an open mind to both". Then people go "Of course it wasn't reptoids, it was the sprinklers." Meanwhile there was never even a lawn to begin with.

That is of course just speculation and my own subjective impressions.
 
BTW this is like a different kind of Low-Information Zone — a physical location that we have little information about, so folks imagine that all sorts of things they fancy might be living there. People are very strange.

Or as the early cartographers put it, "Here be Dragons". Since the Chinese got some samples from the Far Side of the Moon a week or so ago, this "hypothesis" should soon go the same way the ancient cartographic warning did. Sailors went there and found a lot of other things, but no dragons.
 
None of these people ever offer any evidence for their claims aside from some sort of "trust me bro" type response. But the point here is to just keep pounding away and get these views and claims into the mainstream.
"I believe it, and I'm respectable, so it's ok if you believe it, too."
 
BTW this is like a different kind of Low-Information Zone — a physical location that we have little information about,
That's changing.
China said its lunar spacecrafthttps://apnews.com/article/china-space-moon-lander-446770171c61cdc27b2a307f51940300 unfurled the country’s red and gold flag for the first time on the far side of the moon before part of the vehicle blasted off early Tuesday [June 4th] with rock and soil samples to bring back to Earth.
 
If by "pre-Diluvial" the authors mean "antediluvian", and it's hard to think it could mean anything else in this context, and they think that's an acceptable term to use as an indicator of age or a period of time in a science paper, I don't have much faith in them as scientists.
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The antediluvian kings colonized the world
All the gods who play in the mythological dramas
In all legends from all lands were from fair Atlantis
—Donovan Leitch, Atlantis



Before there was antediluvian, there were the Latin words ante (meaning "before") and diluvium (meaning "flood"). In the 1600s, English speakers were using antediluvian to describe conditions they believed existed before the great flood described in the biblical account of Noah and the ark. By the early 1700s, the word had come to be used as both an adjective and a noun referring to anything or anyone prodigiously old. Naturalist Charles Darwin used it to characterize the mighty "antediluvian trees" some prehistoric mammals might have used as a food source, and in his American Notes, Charles Dickens described an elderly lady who informed him, "It is an extremely proud and pleasant thing … to be an antediluvian."
 
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All four CTHs are far-fetched on their face; we entertain them here because some aspects of UAP are strange enough that they seem to call for unconventional explanations.
I kind of wonder if the idea with this paper is to just reinforce the idea that there really is some mystery to UAPs that cannot be accounted for by prosaic explanations
Manufacturing mystery is certainly a common enough pattern.
My pet peeve is Graves selling pilot sightings of on-station Starlink as UAP well after he should've known what they were. Or people constructing a "J-Hook" from GIMBAL when a straight target path would explain the data. Or anything we've discussed about Skinwalker Ranch.

The big elephant in the room is that neither the extraterrestrials nor the crypto-hominids have any explanatory power: even if these entities exist as claimed, it remains unexplained how they can do things that are supposedly impossible for us. The unconventional "explanation" is really no more than "it's magic".

Let's go for the magical hypothesis:
MH1: there's a secret society of human wizards and witches that is responsible for these unexplained mysteries.
"Evidence" can be found galore in traditional folktales.
 
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If by "pre-Diluvial" the authors mean "antediluvian", and it's hard to think it could mean anything else in this context, and they think that's an acceptable term to use as an indicator of age or a period of time in a science paper, I don't have much faith in them as scientists.

The quote attributed to Hal Puthoff:

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Consider Puthoff’s claim that there could be an “ancient occult group, isolated pre-Diluvial high-tech society… existing alongside us in distinct stealth.”
Yes, one could call them out for using pre-Diluvial as some sort of time reference. One could also call them out for using the term at all, as it denotes a pre-flood world, thereby insinuating a great flood DID happen. But that wouldn't work because they actually do go on to discuss the flood myths and Noah as evidence of something.

However, I would call them out for not recognizing where else the claim comes from, long before Puthoff was talking about it. "Ancient occult groups from the long past combined with high-tech still living among us today" is straight up Lovecraft!

One of H.P. Lovecraft's most famous stories, The Call of Cthulhu (1928), centers around a secret and ancient cult that worships Cthulhu, a God/alien from the stars that hides out and sleeps at the bottom of the ocean. Many of Lovecraft's other stories include ancient alien Gods, ancient occult groups and aliens hiding out among us. These people don't seem to understand there just repeating FICTION from 100 years ago as if it's a reasonable solution to UAPs. I'll have to track down the Puthoff quote, as he's the same guy the SWR crowd claims briefed Kirkpatrick
and other congressional staffers. I wonder if he was telling them about Cthulhu?

Side note: Jason Colavito, who Mick has had on his podcast, wrote a book years ago linking Lovecraft's fiction to the modern non-fiction Ancient Aliens idea. The Cult of Alien Gods: H. P. Lovecraft and Extraterrestrial Pop Culture (2005) makes the argument that Lovecraft popularized and codified the idea of malevolent ancient aliens visiting Earth in the distant past and interacting with humans for ages in various cheap pulp magazines of the '20 and '30s.

Pulps fell out of favor in the late '30s and most people didn't think much of Lovecraft or his stories. During WW2, Lovecraft's stories made their way to Europe as cheap paperbacks for GIs to read. Some copies ended up circulating in places like France where the locals seemed to have missed the "fiction" part the stories or felt that Lovecraft was on to something real.

Colavito claims that among those influenced by Lovecraft's tales were Louis Pauwels and Jaques Bergier who authored the book Le Matin des magiciens (1960) which was translated and sold in English as The Dawn of Magic (1963) and The Morning of The Magicians: Introduction to Fantastic Realism (1964). It covered all kinds of crypto-history, Nazi occultism, UFOlogy and was also heavily inspired by the writings of Charles Fort. The pair went onto found a paranormal/esoterica magazine Planete.

More importantly, it was translated into German as Aufbruch ins dritte Jahrtausend. This is the version that Swiss hotelier and convicted fraudster Erich von Daniken would have read and cribbed a bit to create his book Chariots of the Gods. This would be followed up by other books and the Discovery network long running TV show, Ancient Aliens. Whether Colavito successfully connects all the dots is up to the reader, but I found a certain logic in his arguments.

And here we are today, with an ostensively academic paper that seems to unknowingly suggest Lovecraft's fictional creations may in fact explain real life UAP.
 
This stuff has some shades of Ignatius Donnelly and Graham Hancock. Someone mentioned above that this is another part of attempt to mainstream UFOs and get it into public discourse, however this seems a lot more out there than the other stuff which was framed under national security and often had the "not saying it's aliens, I didn't say it's aliens, why are you saying it's aliens" disclaimer.
 
This stuff has some shades of Ignatius Donnelly and Graham Hancock. Someone mentioned above that this is another part of attempt to mainstream UFOs and get it into public discourse, however this seems a lot more out there than the other stuff which was framed under national security and often had the "not saying it's aliens, I didn't say it's aliens, why are you saying it's aliens" disclaimer.
you mean David Grusch's dimension-traveling NIHs?
 
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If by "pre-Diluvial" the authors mean "antediluvian", and it's hard to think it could mean anything else in this context, and they think that's an acceptable term to use as an indicator of age or a period of time in a science paper, I don't have much faith in them as scientists.
My take is that the term "pre-diluvial" was chosen because they wanted to be clear to a poorly-educated audience who can't distinguish between "ante-" and "anti-".
 
As @NorCal Dave posted, quoting the Lomas, Case, Masters paper
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Consider Puthoff’s claim that there could be an “ancient occult group, isolated pre-Diluvial high-tech society… existing alongside us in distinct stealth.”
(My emphasis).

If by "pre-Diluvial" the authors mean "antediluvian", and it's hard to think it could mean anything else in this context, and they think that's an acceptable term to use as an indicator of age or a period of time in a science paper, I don't have much faith in them as scientists.
Suspicions confirmed on further reading of the paper, with copious woo, a heavy reliance on taking the accounts of known UFO enthusiasts at face value whatever the predictive or real world validity of their claims (or indeed their track record), and a wilful inability to consider vastly more likely hypotheses.

Assuming this isn't some massive in-joke or an exercise in exposing poor journal standards (like the Sokal affair, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair) this is junk science. It isn't real science, or philosophy, and I hope that no public funds were wasted in any way to support the author's work re. this paper.

Someone needs to start a register of journals that publish clearly junk papers like this one (not just fringe theories, which might be testable, or contentious opinions- junk).
They don't have to be junk or predatory journals. There's a whole genre of climate change denial studies that get published in tangentially related journals on civil engineering, hydrology, facets of physics, or other related fields specifically of interest to engineers. The editors are amenable to the subject matter and their reviewers are frankly not familiar with the existing literature or the increasingly complicated physics, so they publish papers on how sunspot variability is actually responsible for global warming, or newly discovered volcanoes are, or that there's no warming at all, really.

That said, ResearchGate isn't a journal itself, but a place to share papers that haven't been published (at least not yet), like arXiv.org, so this paper hasn't gone through editorial or peer review. And the authors are experts in theology and wellbeing, not anything concretely related to the subject of the paper.

And when I check the link today, the paper is no longer online at ResearchGate, so I wonder if they took it down.
 
Upon further reading, this really is a "kitchen sink" paper. There is everything from Roswell to Atlantis and everything in between. It's almost like someone watched year's worth of Discovery Networks fringe programming and tossed it all in. It often includes caveats like "most likely fiction" or "very low probability of being true" which begs the question, why include it? At first, I thought the only thing missing is Bigfoot. Nope, I found him, but first..

Getting back to the title of the thread, one possible place for cryptoterrestrials to hide out is Alaska:

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There has been recent speculation for instance about an “Alaskan Triangle,” a sparsely populated area between Anchorage and Juneau in the south to Utqiagvik on the northern coast that is a prominent “hotspot” for UAP, as well as other oddities, such as over 20,000 unexplained disappearances in the area since the 1970s (Moran, 2023a).
At first glance that seems like a lot of people to go missing in a place where there aren't a lot of people. The date is a bit vague but if we go with 1970 to 2020 that's 50 years and around 400 disappearances per year. Still seems a little high, but maybe not. If a large number of non-residents travel to a remote part of the state to hike, hunt or recreate and get lost, they may never be found. Likewise, someone who doesn't want to be found may head for interior Alaska to disappear.

The first thing to do is track down the source, (Moran, 2023a) which leads us to an English tabloid, The Daily Star and a September 2023 article by Michael Moran which states:

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A mysterious triangle of land in sparsely-populated Alaska offers more sightings of paranormal phenomena than almost any similarly-sized area on Earth.

As well as supposed sightings of triangle UFOs, ghosts and “aggressive” Bigfoot-type creatures, the "Alaska Triangle" is also known for a remarkable number of unexplained disappearances.
https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/weird-news/mystery-alaska-triangle-20000-people-30993764

Other than a link to a snippet from a The Proof is Out There, a History Channel show that seems to be about as reliable as one would imagine, there is no source for the claim. Moran is listed as an "Audiance writer" who has "a limitless appitite for offbeat news and fine wine".

Googling for a source just runs one around in circles. Multiple publications use the figure, but just get it from another publication, often leading back to TV clips from the Discovery Networks and the History Channel. Sometimes a "strange" case is highlighted only to have been solved, like this from the Juruselm Post:

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Another puzzling case involves Gary Frank Sotherden, a 25-year-old New Yorker who disappeared during a hunting trip in the Alaskan wilderness in the mid-1970s. In 1997, a human skull found along the Porcupine River was later identified as Sotherden's through DNA analysis in 2022. US Army investigators concluded he likely died in an encounter with a bear.
https://www.jpost.com/omg/article-774019

So, someone got lost and or encountered a bear. And the "mystery" was eventually solved.

The authors also use Moran's 2023 article again when talking about Bigfoot hanging out in Alaska:

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Indeed, this was mentioned in relation to the “Alaska triangle” above, in which cryptozoologist Cliff Barackman is reported as saying “anything, of any size,” could be hiding in the wilderness: “With so much fantastic habitat and so few people to compete with, Sasquatches basically have the run of Alaska” (Moran, 2023a)
.

Getting back to the big guy, the authors are using him as a possible "cryptid" that evolved along side us, but remains hidden, or maybe not:

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For instance, one often-overlooked counterargument regarding the existence of a self-sustaining population of Sasquatch is that nearly all primate species are intelligent, social, and curious animals. Because this mythical creature is classified as a member of the primate order of mammals, and considering its bipedal form of locomotion would be a member of the hominin clade specifically – which is the most intelligent and curious of all primates – one would expect to see Sasquatches frequently peering into villages and rummaging through trash cans; however, such instances are rarely if ever reported. On the other hand though, it is also possible that Sasquatches could be an anomalously solitary form of primate, hence their general elusiveness.
Or maybe. This section is followed up by a discussion of "Ata" the fetus of a girl that Garry Nolan did DNA samples on because Steven Greer thought it was an alien, as well as Maussan's mummies. Over and over again in this paper, the authors bring up dubious claims, often saying they are dubious, but then well maybe not, or at least ALL posibilities MUST be looked at:

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Another prominent example emerged as this article was being written – and which is still being studied and debated – centring on two tiny, mummified bodies, with elongated heads and three fingers on each hand and foot, allegedly found in Peru in 2017. These were dramatically and controversially presented before the Mexican Congress in a UAP hearing in September 2023 by self-proclaimed “ufologist” Jaime Maussan, who claimed they were extraterrestrial in origin. However, while tests on these specimens are still underway, on balance most observers seem sceptical that they are genuine (Norton, 2023), including us, for reasons we elucidate in an endnote26.
Maussan's mummies are probably fake, but were going to mention them anyways and hey what about giants:

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Somewhat relatedly, there is a long history of tales, and potentially even suggestive evidence, of the skeletal remains and other traces of species of humanoid “giants”27; here again there are probably good reasons for scepticism, though as with other aspects of this topic we would not simply want to dismiss such ideas out of hand.
Then there are the pages of notes I've only skimmed so far.
 
This passage from p.13 is just weird and self referential. Why say "some observers" when they mean themselves? [Edit] does this indicate that it's AI generated text? [/edit]
Screenshot 2024-06-13 at 23.07.39.png

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Such observations have prompted some observers, including in the US
federal government and defense establishment, to speculate that unconventional “ultraterrestrial” explanations
are precisely what is called for – from interdimensional beings (Lomas, 2023a), to future human time travellers
(Masters, 2019; 2022), to the panoply of aethereal NHIs recognized in most cultures, such as the class of beings
known in the contemporary West as angels (Lomas & Case, 2023), which Case and Lomas (forthcoming) label...
 
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This passage from p.13 is just weird and self referential. Why say "some observers" when they mean themselves?
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...to speculate that unconventional "ultraterrestrial" explanations are precisely what is called for...

Well, I suppose the authors are pointing out that now that we have such a wealth of data and deep understanding of conventional ultraterrestrials and their technology, we realise that they can't be responsible for all the phenomena reported :rolleyes:
 
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