deirdre
Senior Member.
i havent seen anything to indicate JD Vance is a TV*. so occam's razor....
*although...now that i think about it. maybe he's a robot. still a robot isnt a tv.
Claim: "They're eating the dogs" - Trump / Harris Presidential Debate '24
- Thread starter Giddierone
- Start date
*although...now that i think about it. maybe he's a robot. still a robot isnt a tv.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
I don't understand your response. I was referring to Trump saying he saw on TV people complaining about their pets being eaten. I have seen no evidence that there was anybody on TV doing that.
deirdre
Senior Member.
i was going for a joke.
Vance wasnt ever on tv talking cats and dogs prior the debate that i could find.
The only place ive seen people on tv complaining (prior to debate) is the town hall meetings footage. but i only saw 1 mention of pets and cant remember the exact wording. i dont think it was a direct claim of they're being stolen and eaten or even just eaten*. maybe 2 people talking about ducks. there's alot of town hall footage because this goes way back from last year (when the town people really starting complaining about misc things). ie. i certainly havent watched it all.
*if drivers are running over mailboxes and garbage cans and driving into houses (there are pics), its likely a cat or two have been run over. so thats not stealing, if you pick a dead cat up off the side of the road. NOT saying this happened, just saying that wouldnt be stealing.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
Yes, so my point is that when Trump said he "saw it on TV" he was either:
1 - confusing TV with social media, where may actually have seen it (though not likely he did)
2 - simply lying, or
3 - not capable of distinguishing between what is true and what he wants to be true.
Even JD Vance went on to essentially claim that the most important thing is not whether the story is true but whether it starts a conversation that they want to have, a conversation that they believe will work to their benefit. Whether it is true that Haitian immigrants are eating people's cats and dogs doesn't matter as long as it sounds like it could be true to their followers. reminds me of Colbert's "truthiness".
NoParty
Senior Member.
Good to bear in mind that this is the same guy who claimed in 2011 that he had sent
investigators to Hawaii, tasked with sorting Obama's birth certificate,
"...and they cannot believe what they're finding."
Fortunately for Trump, the press has seemingly decided that demanding some proof
of that is too soon, after just 13+ years.
Also the same guy that insisted he had hundreds (~225!) of his workers clearing Ground Zero after 9/11!!
The actual people in charge, on the ground, say there's no way this is possible, but, fortunately for Trump,
the press has seemingly decided that demanding some proof is too soon, after just 23 years.
Even more on point: This is the same guy that has insisted for 23 years that he saw on TV
"thousands and thousands" of people (he implies are "Arabs") in New Jersey celebrating as
the Twin Towers came down. No one, including Trump's people can find any such 2001 TV footage.
Don't get me wrong, I would still be worried about any "leader" who would jeopardize the safety of
a group of people (Haitians, in this case) based on what someone said, with no proof,
on TV...but given Trump's record, it would not be at all surprising if he did not see it on TV.
https://www.factcheck.org/2016/08/trumps-revised-911-claim/
investigators to Hawaii, tasked with sorting Obama's birth certificate,
"...and they cannot believe what they're finding."
Fortunately for Trump, the press has seemingly decided that demanding some proof
of that is too soon, after just 13+ years.
Also the same guy that insisted he had hundreds (~225!) of his workers clearing Ground Zero after 9/11!!
The actual people in charge, on the ground, say there's no way this is possible, but, fortunately for Trump,
the press has seemingly decided that demanding some proof is too soon, after just 23 years.
Even more on point: This is the same guy that has insisted for 23 years that he saw on TV
"thousands and thousands" of people (he implies are "Arabs") in New Jersey celebrating as
the Twin Towers came down. No one, including Trump's people can find any such 2001 TV footage.
Don't get me wrong, I would still be worried about any "leader" who would jeopardize the safety of
a group of people (Haitians, in this case) based on what someone said, with no proof,
on TV...but given Trump's record, it would not be at all surprising if he did not see it on TV.
https://www.factcheck.org/2016/08/trumps-revised-911-claim/
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
Yes, it is clear to any clear-minded observer that this guy is a serial liar (apparently pathologically so), and he has no credibility in my mind. If he were to say the sky is blue, I'd frantically run outside to check what the hell is wrong.
And JD Vance wonders why people don't take his word that his constituents are calling their senator instead of the local authorities when their pets are getting stolen and eaten.
And JD Vance wonders why people don't take his word that his constituents are calling their senator instead of the local authorities when their pets are getting stolen and eaten.
deirdre
Senior Member.
well i saw it on TV. literally. but my tv has the youtube icon and i let the algorhythm just play whatever is "up next" when im doing my artsy stuff.
i think its fair to call youtube social media.
deirdre
Senior Member.
well he is an Ohio (ie springfield) senator. so yea it might be hard to separate whether your "their" means republicans or his constituents which are the people of Springfield.
NoParty
Senior Member.
While we're all clear about the lack of evidence behind the claim, it might seem more plausible in this format.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrCvZmSnKA&t=110s
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3BrCvZmSnKA&t=110s
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
So, do you think Trump himself saw people on TV saying people have eaten their pets?
Yes. For these purposes.
deirdre
Senior Member.
not if you dont think seeing the town hall meetings online counts as on TV. dont forget Trump is 20 years older than me [generation Xer], but i still thik its fair to say if you saw the town hall meeting through youtube it can be described as i saw people on TV. it looks like they are on tv. cspan i still call "on tv" even though i now watch cspan online. (c-span used to be literally on TV...in case you dont know what im talking about)
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
So, (assuming we grant that he actually did see it, which I find a dubious claim) one YouTube video of one guy at a town hall complaining about something that appears to have no other evidence supporting it is enough to bring up at Presidential debate? I would hope a future President has better skills at determining accurate intelligence from sources. But, based on what I've heard others say about his interest in intelligence briefings when he was president this kind of credulity tracks.
Mendel
Senior Member.
I guess the people for whom this is not a priority won't be voting for the candidate with the legal career
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
I don't think one needs a legal career for that.
Mendel
Senior Member.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
And even were we to suppose that Trump and Vance are telling the truth, why is this not a matter for local police? There are no hard numbers on exactly how many pets (Trump made clear it is plural) have been stolen and eaten. If there are 20,000 refugees would it not be surprising that a couple might partake in criminal activity? Is that a good reason to deport entire communities? Should we deport American criminals too? Nothing those two have said on the subject makes sense to me, except as a way to rile up their base voters.
Mendel
Senior Member.
they don't fight crime, they amplify fear
deirdre
Senior Member.
Trump isnt going to deport them because of the rumor, he says he's gonna deport ALL illegal immigrants (and likely revoke some of the Biden administrations orders for increased protective services which would effect Springfield.)
deirdre
Senior Member.
Governor conference today apparently all the bomb threats are from out of country "one in particular"..but even when reporter asks for clarification he is refusing to name the country. which is odd
Can they REALLY know which country emails are sent from? this fast? with the internet and that VPN stuff... i dont know. cant an american with computer skills make it look like they are from another country?
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCh-fFoTow
Can they REALLY know which country emails are sent from? this fast? with the internet and that VPN stuff... i dont know. cant an american with computer skills make it look like they are from another country?
External Quote:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzCh-fFoTow
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
But the Haitians in Springfield aren't illegal. They are legal refugees, many of whom have taken jobs and are helping the community. Why should they all be deported even if it were true that a very small fraction of them were partaking in criminal activity?
Sorry, I see that you refer to their status. But they still haven't articulated a rational explanation why they'd revoke all those statuses. Can they quantifiably document the effects on the town? And if so, why isn't that the discussion instead of eating of cats and dogs?
We should hear from the town rather than a serial liar and his opportunistic running mate. They are not reliable sources of true information.
deirdre
Senior Member.
thats not why.
because we have 12-15-20 million illegal immigrants in the u.s. Protective status is great IF you werent also paying for an additional 15 million or so who do not qualify for asylum or protective status.
i personally think we should get rid of all the single men from south of the border which is likely like 70% of them, and bring all the haitians over (except the gang members) because they keep getting wiped out by hurricanes and it's ridiculous to live there.
(i do feel for people, mostly women, who live in countries that cant get their shit together but like half the world is in that state ..if not more than half... )
the weirdest thing is the Governor says springfield is talking to companies that want to move into Springfield..so theyd need more workers. But they are also trying to build 5,000 more houses for the people they have now and Bidens parole protection status has only been extended for 2 more years anyway. so they build everything up and in 2 years 20,000 people leave? Everything that government does (on boths sides of the aisle) is stupid.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
I don't understand the argument. We shouldn't have legal immigration until we solve the illegal immigration problem? Why punish the Haitians who have been through so much in their homeland?
Anyway, this kind of argument should be backed by policy information and actual data not just a feeling about how we are "paying" for illegal immigrants.
Yes. There should be discussions of actual plans that make sense. I'm not impressed by concepts of plans.
FatPhil
Senior Member.
The last chart I saw (IIRC with data from 2020) separating crime statistics into natives, legal immigrants, and illegal immigrants buckets showed a downward trend in that order. This makes sense, the people with the greatest desire to not get caught of committing crimes have the strongest incentive to not wantonly commit crimes.
I can't find the national chart I last saw, but slightly older Texas data supports this - and it's not even close. It seems Munger's right, incentives are powerful things:
links:
https://nij.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/x...itizenship-documentation-status-2012-2018.jpg
https://nij.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/x...es-by-citizenship-documentation-2012-2018.jpg
via: https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/undocumented-immigrant-offending-rate-lower-us-born-citizen-rate
EDIT: That DoJ page itself isn't old, even if the data in the charts is, it's dated September 12, 2024.
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Mendel
Senior Member.
in actuality, it's likely working immigrants are paying for our pensions by keeping the economy going
people who are working are not a burden on society
the Haitian immigrants came to Springfield because there was work there
(that nobody else would do)
Alexandria Nick
Senior Member.
This does not strike me as odd. For example, I was working somewhere that had a huge network intrusion and they had to take down a bunch of our online tools for a long period of time, causing major disruption to our workflow. Multiple law enforcement agencies were involved, including the FBI. Senior management had more details, but the most they told us rank and file was that it was a foreign actor, declining to name who.
deirdre
Senior Member.
i can see that.
because the feds had no plan in place to prevent all the real issues even the mayor is talking about. ie.Money and personnel for housing, translation services, culture teachers to help them integrate a bit better to local customs and norms etc etc. ?
* i say "them", but i imagine its a very small minority of the 15-20,000 who are being rude in stores and scaring people.
apparently youre more impressed by having absolutely NO plan.
deirdre
Senior Member.
I hear that, but if its Russia or China wouldn't it be better to let us know they are doing more of their "misinformation" schtick to sow discord in our country?
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
don't put words in my mouth and make this personal. If you cannot have a discussion in good faith then we shouldn't have one at all.apparently youre more impressed by having absolutely NO plan.
deirdre
Senior Member.
stop with the "racist" schtick. there are black people at the Springfield town hall meetings too.
Black people in NYC and Chicago etc that are super pissed off too.
deirdre
Senior Member.
maybe dont make snarky off topic gish gallop comments then.
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
And if you have citations to send me to regarding the mayor's issues I would be happy to read them. If you are interested in a good faith discussion, that is.
That's not the way the issue is being discussed in the media though, as if it were just a very small minority that are at issue.
But to get back on topic, what evidence is there upon which Trump is basing his claim that they are "eating the dogs and the cats"?
Even if I were to grant that he saw it "on TV" I would hope that a President would know how to assess information before basing policy on things seen on TV and get input from immigration experts and real world data to craft policy. Is that too much to ask?
AmberRobot
Senior Member.
It is not snark to desire Presidential candidates to have concrete policy plans on what he himself states are the nation's most pressing issues.
Immigration plans are not fully off topic, though as you can see from my recent post I will try to get back on topic, which is evidence for the rumor that Haitian immigrants are eating the pets in Springfield Ohio.
And we most have different definitions of "gish gallop" because until to see how it applies to anything I have said.
deirdre
Senior Member.
your comment was in reference to Health Care. There are concrete plans on how to deport illegals, Obama left a road map.
we didnt already post videos of him talking in this thread? sigh.
NPR from Aug 12th [a month before debate]
Article: He's hardly alone in his concern. "Our community has a big heart. But it's being overwhelmed," says Mayor Rob Rue. "And everybody has a burnout level. Everybody does."
Mayor Rob Rue says the city has taken on far more than it can handle in terms of population influx.
Jasmine Grasd/NPR
His office says community hospitals are spending up to 50 thousand dollars a month in translation services. About 40 new students arrive in the district every week - many of whom don't speak English.
There has been a tangible impact on services. "You're seeing an increase in calls for service," says Springfield Police Chief Allison Elliot. "But officers are responding to calls where there are language barriers. Which then slows down our efficiency."
"We want to grow as a community," Mayor Rue says. "The speed in which we have experienced this growth is what we're concerned about, and why we say we need help from the (federal) government."
I know. the media makes it sound like ALL the haitians are causing problems, and ALL the Springfield citizens are racist.
he's choosing to believe the testimony of citizens. which i agree is ironic since he got like a 20 billion dollar judgement because a jury decided to just believe his accuser with no evidence. and he was impeached twice with no evidence, just "testimony". <see what i did there? annoying isnt it?
its not too much to ask. But you seem to be missing the point. Much more eloquent people than i have explained illegal immigration and immigration issues for years. There is nothing "new" about this situation. The Irish, the Italians, the Polish, the Chinese, the Albanians in Greece.. even the cats and dogs thing is not new as has been demonstrated in this thread. Every single time a large influx of people with a different culture arrive in a location there ae cultural and money issues.
That's why this situation is frustrating to me. It's the same old story. same old song and dance. Humanity seems to never actually learn.
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AmberRobot
Senior Member.
It may be applicable to all his plans. So, Trump's immigration plan is Obama's? And since the Haitians in Springfield are not illegals what plan is he using to address them.
I admitted I joined the conversation late so excuse me if I didn't read every post prior to joining in.
Thank you for the information. I agree that there should be a plan to help any community that has to take on a burden of thousands of refugees. That should be part of any immigration policy.
I haven't seen any references in the media calling the citizens of Springfield racist. Maybe they exist somewhere. From what I have seen and from the mayor's statement you have provided it appears the concerns are more likely due to the large number of refugees rather than their race.
Certainly I have seen Trump called racist.
And have we seen the testimony to which he refers? That's the subject of this thread. I am not taking Vance's word on this he claimed there are 911 tapes so we should be able to listen to those and assess the veracity of the claims. The city manager seems not to agree with Trump, and then Trump disparaged the city manager during the debate after the moderator attempted to fact check the claim. If Trump will believe the testimony of citizens why is he disregarding the city manager, who presumably is in a good place to know?
Now who is going off topic?
deirdre
Senior Member.
well he was already President for 4 years so he tweaked it a bit.
i imagine he will just revoke Bidens executive order giving them protective status. (i mean theoretically, not sure he will actually do anything about them if Springfield decides they can handle it. The gangs from Venezula and M16 are a more pressing issue im sure)
i've only seen 2nd hand testimony about the cats/dogs. Ive seen like 2 first hands about geese/ducks.
i linked that above comment #112 those hyperlinks -provided by USA Today-
have the 911 call and the police report on it.
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/cl...rris-presidential-debate-24.13642/post-323171
that was the point. but you said you'll stop, so i will too.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Is this another unverified rumor to which you refer? Are they "rude" in a higher proportion than American residents are rude? I can't speak to the "scaring people" bit, because being scared is a function of the person who says he's scared, not necessarily because of the behavior of the person he's scared of.
deirdre
Senior Member.
you mean have the people reporting this filmed the haitians being rude?
based on the amount of rudeness on this forum alone, i'm gonna speculate that it would be near impossible to be more rude than the general population.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Working "Antifa" into the meme is just creating more dangerous rumors. That's inappropriate and mean-spirited.
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