Claim: The Indian/Chinese systems of nadis/meridians have been proved by science because of hyaluronic acid and piezoelectricity

Mauro

Active Member
K. Gotta respect the rules. What about this though?: Avoid Humor and Sarcasm. Everyone likes a chuckle, but not everyone recognizes humor. It gets in the way of communication. Just say what you mean.
You are pretty right, I apologize because, admittedly, my sentence was humorous. But not condescending, I actually didn't even have you in mind when I wrote that, as you may see it's an answer to a post by Rory. Apologies anyway!
 

J.d.K

Member
You are pretty right, I apologize because, admittedly, my sentence was humorous. But not condescending, I actually didn't even have you in mind when I wrote that, as you may see it's an answer to a post by Rory. Apologies anyway!
I know you didn't have me in mind. I knew it was in a jokingly fashion, but I didn't really get the point or clue and thus thought the tone of the joke was one of sarcastic condescension... not towards me, but towards supposedly ridiculous ideas expressed in Rory's quote. Ridiculous ideas unfounded by modern science and thus it would actually be ridiculous to seriously think it could possibly refute your argument about heart transplants based in solid modern logic. (just explaining my (former) interpretation here. not trying to put words in your mouth. And I realize this is just more of the tone-talking that is against the rules, but I figured since we allready opened the can of worms, maybe properly finish it in mutual understanding)
Awww, but.. but.. this totally spoils my argument from heart transplants. :):)
Anyway, I've proparbly been reading too much into just an innocent, light-hearted, friendly and silly joke with two smiley faces (sorry, don't mean to judge your sense of humor ;) :p). In that case sorry for making such a fuss. In the light of debunking... I'm glad that we have debunked tthe idea hat two friendly smiley faces would mean anything other than just that.... two friendly smiley faces ;). What I don't get however is how that joke would be "a stimulus for someone to review the logic on which their beliefs are grounded" as you put it.
 
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LilWabbit

Active Member
I know you didn't have me in mind. I knew it was in a jokingly fashion, but I didn't really get the point or clue and thus thought the tone of the joke was one of sarcastic condescension... not towards me, but towards supposedly ridiculous ideas expressed in Rory's quote. Ridiculous ideas unfounded by modern science and thus it would actually be ridiculous to seriously think it could possibly refute your argument about heart transplants based in solid modern logic.

Intellectual condescension by the secularist who swears by the name of science (howbeit not usually understanding science all that deeply) is a real thing. So you have a very valid point there. I just didn't see that's what Mauro was doing.

Does this condescension exist amongst MB members? I'm sure it does, with some. And it takes a certain pair of 'cojones' for you to even survive this long and sane amongst us while sharing the stuff that you share. Well done! And by the way, a belated welcome to the forum!

Both the religionist/spiritualist and the secular humanist often (but not always) view science and religion in opposition to one another. This has resulted in the unfortunate, and incorrect, popular impression that 'science' subscribes to a materialist Western worldview, and that 'religion' is little more than superstition and gullible acceptance of all that's written in ancient books in search for an ecstatic thrill.

And yet religion is a complex that is more deeply rooted in human consciousness, human culture and history than the silly superstitions, the illogical nonsense and the authoritarian moral policing that have so fantastically marred its name. If studied in a scientific spirit, combining independent and critical thought with an open-mindedness to explore any and all claims, religion can produce many a deeply profound realization. But if simply taken at face value, trusting ancient sources automatically as infallible due to their time-honoured standing, various problems arise.

Similarly, real science is genuinely inquisitive and therefore does not subscribe to any preconceived philosophy about the universe, including materialism. The 'strong skeptic' (as opposed to 'moderate skeptics' who honestly acknowledge not knowing things beyond science to reliably exist while not ruling out the possibility of knowing in the future) often perpetrates what can be called the Skeptic's Paradox. He is also a believer in something unproven by science, namely a philosophical claim better known as 'empiricism' and/or 'scientism'. That is, the belief that only what is scientifically provable or directly observable is reliably knowable.

The Skeptic's Paradox reads quite simply as follows:

I reliably know only what is scientifically proven or directly observed. If something is scientifically unprovable or unobservable, it is not reliably knowable. Yet the foregoing claim is scientifically unprovable.

Another version of the paradox, formulated in a tad more provocative faith language: I have an unscientific metaphysical belief that science is the only reliable means to acquire knowledge.

Logically, to make a positive claim on reliable knowledge being restricted to the domain of science, is to pronounce a blind metaphysical belief in a universe where any other possible domain is forever bound to be inaccessible to reliable knowledge. Scientifically, however, there is no possible way to know such a sweeping truth about all reality.

Scientism is therefore just another scientifically unfalsifiable and unverifiable philosophical theory, but it has very understandable origins which the spiritualists should not scoff at. It is often motivated by a historical yet emotional aversion to the intrusive preachiness of fanatics and superstitious believers, insisting that you blindly swallow evidently absurd, and even harmful, ideas as truth, while judging you fiercely for their rejection.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
PS If anyone's wondering how something non-physical can have a physical location, this should clear it up:

“The Heart is used in the Vedas and the scriptures to denote the place whence the notion ‘I’ springs. Does it spring only from the fleshy ball? It springs within us somewhere right in the middle of our being. The ‘I’ has no location. Everything is the Self. There is nothing but that. So the Heart must be said to be the entire body of ourselves and of the entire universe, conceived as ‘I’. But to help the practiser we have to indicate a definite part of the Universe, or of the Body. So this Heart is pointed out as the seat of the Self. But in truth we are everywhere, we are all that is, and there is nothing else.”

That's also from Ramana Maharshi.
 

Mauro

Active Member
I really did not want to write this, a lot of words for something of little relevance, but oh well. Casual readers of this forum are advised to skip it, and frequent readers too. I also think this thread has drifted to talk of so many topics that it's no more 'bona fide Metabunk' (I surely contributed to this!), could it be moved to chit-chat maybe?

Now about the 'incident': I answered with a humorous sentence to Rory's post on a non-material heart.

Now, I cannot say I know Rory well of course, but we have had some forum exchanges in the past and my impression is that he is really interested in oriental philosophies and the like, but he does not subscribe acritically to beliefs and he's pretty enjoyable to reason with. I took his post on a non-material heart as he supporting with an example what I had just posted before, that one can invent any unfalsifiable claim and start speculating from there. And he was perfectly spot on, because were that example claim be true, it'd really totally spoil my argument from heart transplant.

I could have shown my appreciation for Rory's post with a wordy answer, which is a sin I'm already guilt enough of. And unrepentant, as you can see. Instead I went for humour, being rather confident that Rory would have got the meaning. This being against MB's policy, I apologize for it.

Humour sometimes succeeds in being "a stimulus for someone to review the logic on which their beliefs are grounded" where reasonings, data and examples fail. I cannot say I did not think of that when I wrote my sentence, so yes, I'm also guilty of having used humour as an argument against JdK's claims. As a partial excuse I could say that it's not easy to never stray from the right path of correctness after years and years (decades, actually) of hearing about any possible fantastic claim supported by any possible logical fallacy over and over, anyway I apologize personally with you, JdK, for this. But I really did not mean to joke on you or be condescent. Want to know why? There has been a period in my life when I practiced Yoga, and I actually even came to believe that things such as Chakras and Kundalini were a real thing. I still have in my library a fine edition of Hatha Yoga Pradipika with the original sanksrit text, and Paramahansa Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi, which is as spiritual a book as a book can get. Then, slowly, I started to review the logic on which my beliefs were grounded, which is a long process which is going on even today, 40+ years later. So, JdK, I see you a bit like myself as I was years ago. I wouldn't want to joke about or be patronizing or be condescent with myself, no more than I want that with you, I'd rather like to help myself speed up on the road it took me so many years to take, sincerely.
 
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J.d.K

Member
...one can invent any unfalsifiable claim and start speculating from there.
Hey, thanks for the message.
Neither Rory nor I made up a claim, we merely recited them. Allthough yes, I have also proposed some hypothesises above, but even though I might not have mentioned it, even those were based upon ideas I had read prior in the eastern texts.
Humour sometimes succeeds in being "a stimulus for someone to review the logic on which their beliefs are grounded" where logic, data and examples fail. I cannot say I did not think of that when I wrote my sentence, so yes, I'm also guilty of having used humour as an argument against JdK's claims. As a partial excuse I could say that it's not easy to never stray from the right path of correctness after years and years (decades, actually) of hearing about any possible fantastic claim supported by any possible logical fallacy over and over, anyway I apologize personally with you, JdK, for this.
Hey man, no worries, again, this is not about me taking things personally. I am merely defending a realm of science other than modern.
But I really did not mean to joke on you or be condescent. Want to know why? There has been a period in my life, many years ago, when I practiced Yoga, and I actually even came to believe that things such as Chakras and Kundalini were a real thing. I yet have in my library a very fine edition of Hatha Yoga Pradipika with the original sanksrit text. Then, slowly, I started to review the logic on which my beliefs were grounded, which is a long process which is going on even today, 40+ years later. So, JdK, I see you a bit as myself as I was years ago. I wouldn't want to joke about or be patronizing or be condescent with myself, no more than I want that with you, I'd rather like to help myself speed up on the road I took so many years to take, sincerely.
I might have said it before, but since we're all on a debunking website, I do understand where you're coming from, because even though I respect the ancient texts, I too see a lot of well... absence of thinking around me. An example would be this documentary. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBxIRMfa1vs
I really think there's a lot of very interesting information in there, if you can look past/through the garbage that is... a whole lot of illuminati and paranoid stuff in there. For example there is this guy named Eric P Dollard (his interview starts at 4:46:30) and he speaks about how an organ in a church can bring you into these transcendental states and how he was healing a drugaddict with it after getting him high on vegetable juice and blabla. He speaks about one such happening during a planetary alignment, a full moon he said, on the 13th of october in 1980. These are things you can literally check online within seconds and turns out, that day was the 6th day of a waxing moon. No where even close to a full moon. Sure, could've been just a mistake, but why would he even mention the exact date when it is irrelevant to the story (sounds like making stories up and making them believable by adding details). And everyone in the comments is writing about how that documentary is the best thing they've seen in their lives and whatnot, and nobody bothers to actually check things out and verify. Another massively long documentary is Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mds3Ylp8Jn0
It's a flat earth doc someone recommended to me. We could proparbly spend hours to debunk many of the claims made, but one that caught my eye (at 5:07:57) was when they spoke about the sun being in the sky at the same time as a crescent moon, meaning that at that moment "it is impossible for the sun to be casting the earth's shadow onto the moon." which is thus an argument how round earthers are devoid of logic. which is just the dumbest thing to say because science says only lunar eclipses are due to the shadow of the earth, showing a complete lack of understanding of the most basic concepts of science (and to think people spend over 6 hours watching a doc made by that mind, how much bull will they have aborbed at that point?). When I told him the mistake he answered that many round-earthers that argue with him think that way (and maybe they do, but that just means they too are uninformed in the most basic science).
Another is, I've sent out dozens of e-mails and messages to ayurvedic "professionals" from all over the world to talk about the qualities of peanuts (because it's a controversial topic wether or not they are heating to the body) and I haven't been able to have a serious discussion with even one of them (!). Since the Ayurvedic texts are very detailed I cite them during those conversations, and it becomes apparent that these people don't bother at all to read the original texts (which is fine, but then don't start treating people nor call yourself a practicioner of Ayurveda). They were making stuff up on the spot which was obvious because all of them gave different reasons to explain the same thing, and when I refuted that with numerous arguments based on the texts, they had all kinds of obvious tactics to steer the conversation away from the arguments (or just stopped responding alltogether) I put forward instead of actually confront them which would have showed their total lack of knowledge of these subjects (They could've simply responded honestly by saying they don't know). And I am in no position to be condenscending to them either, because I have been a part of that world too, untill my doctor confronted me with the fact that my beliefs were based upon opinions and imaginations of actual delusional people and corrupt fake "gurus". People say all kinds of things in the name of Yoga and Ayurveda, but i've come to know that most of those people never even have touched the Hatha Yoga Pradipika or even the most basic Ayurvedic texts, let alone that they studied it deeply.
So I do respect sceptisism where sceptisism is due, and judgement where it is due, but we just differ on our views of where it is due. Believe it or not, most of the time I prefer to speak with someone who is into modern science than to speak with someone who follows a guru or the pop yoga/ayurveda books, because the latter is a world where you can say anything you want without using logic, nor having to cite ancient scriptures nor modern science. So yeah, I do think I know where you're coming from when you complain about the multitud of unsubstantiated claims and all.
LilWabbit:
And it takes a certain pair of 'cojones' for you to even survive this long and sane amongst us while sharing the stuff that you share. Well done! And by the way, a belated welcome to the forum!

Thanks Rory, I appreciate it. (edit: oops, mixing up people here. Thanks LilWabbit)
 
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J.d.K

Member
By the same author:

"Inner Communications Following the Near-Death Experience" in /Journal of Near-Death Studies/
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1025074509260

"Hesychasm: A Christian Path of Transcendence." published in /Quest/
https://www.theosophical.org/public...2-hesychasm-a-christian-path-of-transcendence

I'm not saying woo-woo, but we're clearly at the fringes here.
Yeah, the heart-personality thing may very well be a product of imagination, but I remain open-minded.
 

J.d.K

Member
Mauro was not at all saying you or Rory did.

(an example of: even when you don't use sarcasm, being "read" out-of-context happens an awful lot on this website.)
Reread it and you're right. Thanks for pointing it out. I really don't mean to put words in anyones mouth. All I want is just an honest, respectful (but direct) conversation and it seems like we're doing pretty ok, aside from making a mess of this thread.
 
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Meat5000

Member
I tried to read this thread.
I got as far as this :

Imagine dragging your feet along a rug. The rug creates an electric charge within you, which then produces a shock when you touch the doorknob of your bedroom door. This is similar to piezoelectric energy. It’s an electric charge within your body.

Im an Electrical/Electronics Engineer. As far as I know, piezoelectricity is the charge you obtain from physically flexing a suitable crystalline material. It is nothing even close to what is stated in the text. It is nothing more than a simple electromechanical effect.
We use the phenomenon in Timing circuits because it also works in reverse. You put in an electrical pulse and the material flexes. When it unflexes it produces a charge. You feed that charge back in and produce an oscillation with high accuracy based on the physical dimensions of the crystal defining its resonant frequency.

If one HAD to pin down the effect within the body (of anything biologically animated) you could say that, arguably, the application of electrical pulse to Muscles to create a flex could be likened or somewhat attributed to the effect but its not the same effect as we are not made of crystalline materials. Nor do we need the salts that transmit the charge to flex in any way.

Knowing this information I actually mentally can not read or understand the attempted context of the text. There is no sense in it, for me.
 

NorCal Dave

Active Member
I am merely defending a realm of science other than modern.
Not being disrespectful, but this is the problem.

If by science, we mean the epistemological system that attempts to arrive at knowledge by:
1. Observation of phenomenon.
2. Review of other observations of the same phenomenon (if applicable).
3. Formation of a falsifiable and testable hypothesis about the observations.
4. Experimenting and testing the hypothesis.
5. Replication of the testing, with similar results, by others.
6. Review and acceptance, rejection or modification of hypothesis.

Then it can only be modern.

If by science you mean knowledge in a general sense, than your conflating the meaning of the words. As I understand the way you talk about the Ayurvedic texts, they are set knowledge base. Science is system for discovering knowledge.

To use the peanuts as an example. If I understand you right, and I apologize if I miss-understood it, Ayurveda says that peanuts have a "red" skin on them and "red" equates with pitta(?) which equates with "heat" (as in fire, not something like capsaicin) and "heat" equates with something like "anger" or high emotions in people. Therefore eating peanuts with the skin on will make one angry or highly emotional. Did I get that right?

So for me the question would be, when your reading the Ayurvedic texts, does it included experiments and discussions on:
1. Why and how is "heat" related to "anger". Hypothesis, experiments and results.
2. Why and how is the color "red" on something like a peanut skin related to "heat or fire. Hypothesis, experiments and results.
And so on...

Or is it presented as "red"="heat"="anger" therefore eating something red makes you angry? In that case it's knowledge, maybe right maybe wrong. It was arrived at by people every bit as intelligent as any "modern" person, but it's not science.

Getting back to the original post and @Rory 's questions, if Ayurvedic knowledge is just as valid in the modern world as science is, why try to equate them?
 

J.d.K

Member
"To use the peanuts as an example. If I understand you right, and I apologize if I miss-understood it, Ayurveda says that peanuts have a "red" skin on them and "red" equates with pitta(?) which equates with "heat" (as in fire, not something like capsaicin) and "heat" equates with something like "anger" or high emotions in people. Therefore eating peanuts with the skin on will make one angry or highly emotional. Did I get that right?

So for me the question would be, when your reading the Ayurvedic texts, does it included experiments and discussions on:
1. Why and how is "heat" related to "anger". Hypothesis, experiments and results.
2. Why and how is the color "red" on something like a peanut skin related to "heat or fire. Hypothesis, experiments and results.
And so on...

Or is it presented as "red"="heat"="anger" therefore eating something red makes you angry? In that case it's knowledge, maybe right maybe wrong. It was arrived at by people every bit as intelligent as any "modern" person, but it's not science."
You completely misunderstood, because that whole peanuts are heating because of red skin-thing was me quoting someone who was full of bull. In fact, I think I could explain using ayurvedic logic and terminology that the skins of peanuts do most likely quite the opposite of heating (i.e. cooling), but who here would care to hear about that. The woman writing that stuff obviously had not an inch of understanding of Ayurveda. Eating unsoaked peanuts makes her feel, she says, "a lot of anger". Just wow. Oh, and not suprisingly she actually admitted: "I didn’t read any scripture. Only share with you my experience. Maybe it is nothing to do with the skin... my explanation is not good."

Anyway, I understand the points you want to make, but frankly I've had enough of it. And I'm not trying to be disrespectful either by saying that.

"If Ayurvedic knowledge is just as valid in the modern world as science is, why try to equate them?"

I love that question
 
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Meat5000

Member
energy... does not actually exist!
Indeed I agree with this. We define energy, to be crude, as movement of a mass which in itself is not a physical thing. Its more like a ratio with a net zero result, if that makes sense.
Ive had a strange notion lately, though, that this may not be strictly true as our science tend to deal with Matter and ignore 'the container', being the fabric of space itself, which must be a physical thing in order for particles to interact with it. Like yin and yang, matter and space are two halves of the same system and you will realise that energy being the movement of matter is impossible without the container allowing its passage. It has been hypothesised that actually, inertial and heat phenomenon may actually be stored in the fabric of space and manifest when handed back to the matter. Similarly to how light is not hot but the heat manifests when the light is interacted with.
This 'missing knowledge' makes me believe that we havent really got energy right but it works because of our understanding of the 'net zero' is enough for us to generally factor it out.. its irrelevant, in a way. As a further mind bender, what really is Potential energy except a cop-out of actual understanding of where this 'energy' is being stored? It works because our understanding of net zero allows us to factor it out.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
When I lived and practiced in a Buddhist meditation centre we didn't use garlic in the kitchen, apparently because it promotes 'sexual energy' and may hinder meditation. I believe Ayurveda also says this, though I couldn't point anyone to a particular text.

Maybe science has confirmed garlic as an aphrodisiac, I'm not sure. But there is this study from universities in Stirling and Prague that found men who ate 12g of garlic a day were deemed to have a more attractive odour.

https://www.stir.ac.uk/news/2015/11/research-finds-men-who-eat-garlic-smell-more-attractive/
 

Meat5000

Member
I've done a forum search on "battery", the only related result was https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pyramid-power-plant-debunked.4959/ .
I didnt spot that one, thanks for that.
Its a very different 'pyramid power' to the one I saw. The theory I heard was related to chemically derived power from trace chemicals that were discovered in stone vats in the lower chambers. Ill try to find the info.
Ill start a thread on the baghdad battery when I get the time.
 

Meat5000

Member
Anyway, we are in fear of derailing this thread as we are forking the paths of 'etheric' energies and technologically used energies. I think we are failing in this to identify a link of understanding between the two and how the exterior energy is related to the energies used within the body etc.
I think in modern times we perhaps rely on instruments to tell us how our bodies are doing but it must have all derived from some understanding on a more fundamental basis.
We may be presuming that the evidence of advanced understanding of energy flow within the body is the discovery of some exterior technology to demonstrate a scientific knowledge but it ignores entire evolutionary paths of learning and development from which these complete ways of thinking are derived.
 

Mauro

Active Member
Well, its a different kind of technology exposed. When you heat cinnabar to produce mercury, apparently the mercury evapourates and needs to be condensed in order to collect it. I personally have never discovered cinnabar or produced mercury by accident even though its apparently all around us. In my opinion this is equally as advanced.

Mercury was know since antiquity:
Mercury was found in Egyptian tombs that date from 1500 BC.[16]

In China and Tibet, mercury use was thought to prolong life, heal fractures, and maintain generally good health, although it is now known that exposure to mercury vapor leads to serious adverse health effects.[17] The first emperor of a unified China, Qín Shǐ Huáng Dì—allegedly buried in a tomb that contained rivers of flowing mercury on a model of the land he ruled, representative of the rivers of China—was reportedly killed by drinking a mercury and powdered jade mixture formulated by Qin alchemists intended as an elixir of immortality.[18][19]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_(element)#History

And I agree, that was sure a technology! No one disputes ancient people were clever: iron smelting is even more amazing than getting mercury from cinnabar, but they could invent it. In fact, we know rather well which technologies the ancients had access too, and they do not include electrical devices.
 
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Mauro

Active Member
Anyway, we are in fear of derailing this thread as we are forking the paths of 'etheric' energies and technologically used energies. I think we are failing in this to identify a link of understanding between the two and how the exterior energy is related to the energies used within the body etc.
I think in modern times we perhaps rely on instruments to tell us how our bodies are doing but it must have all derived from some understanding on a more fundamental basis.
We may be presuming that the evidence of advanced understanding of energy flow within the body is the discovery of some exterior technology to demonstrate a scientific knowledge but it ignores entire evolutionary paths of learning and development from which these complete ways of thinking are derived.
Ah this thread has been derailed a long time ago (including by me :cool:). I think it'd better be moved to Chit-chat.

The second part of your post is a wide statement, it's surely interesting but out of scope for Metabunk (but I think there would be no problems if the thread were moved, or start one in Chit-chat or Rambles or Open Discussions)
Metabunk is about debunking specific claims of evidence, not arguing the merits of broader theories.
 

Rory

Senior Member.
I'm from the UK and have also lived in the US - but I didn't understand the cookie jar question either.

Regarding the so-called 'battery', I don't think there's any doubt that it could have produced a current and been used for electroplating (assuming it was a battery and not a scroll/cookie jar). The question is was it?
 

Rory

Senior Member.
A believer in the "hyaluronic acid conducts electricity and this is what the meridians/nadis are" theory sent me a few links to try to back up their claims, including a pdf copy of Motoyama's 'Theories of The Chakras'.

Luckily, the book doesn't actually contain a reference to hyaluronic acid, so that one was quick to deal with.

Next was a nudge in the direction of the aforementioned Paul Grilley, who seems to be the one responsible for promoting the HA theory. But in an interview I found that he said:


I think we've already shown, though, that there's nothing to be compelled by in Dr Motoyama's work or theories.

They also sent me a poorly-translated paper published in The Journal of Complementary and Integrative Medicine (SJR 0.3) and asking the question "are conduits superconductor-like and supported by tetrahedra structure of hyaluronic matrix in living systems?"

Their conclusion:


It's probably a very peculiar and pointless paper, but I include it here - as with earlier references - so that if anyone ever lands here while looking into the subject they'll be able to find all the necessary resources.

One curio it introduced me to was something called 'BongHan Ducts' - now more commonly known as the Primo-Vascular System (PVS) - which has also been claimed as a contender for the elusive meridian system.

A cursorary glance seems to indicate that the PVS does actually exist.

There's a fairly detailed paper here, and in recent years Auburn University professor Vitaly Vodyanoy has taken investigation of the PVS somewhat further:


If I was looking for science to back up the meridian system I would think this would be much more of a candidate than hyaluronic acid.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
They also sent me a poorly-translated paper published in The Journal of Complementary and Integrative Medicine (SJR 0.3) and asking the question "are conduits superconductor-like and supported by tetrahedra structure of hyaluronic matrix in living systems?"

Their conclusion:

1. We suggest an effective highly redundant and rapid communication system (RCS) on the microscopic level in biological system
  • It works in combination with the nervous system
  • It provides the information of deviations from the desired value and probably acts simultaneously as a memory like a hologram
2. At least two mechanisms could be taken in account for the signal transmission:
  • The liquid crystal formation in the hyaluronic acid plays probably an overwhelming role in this system
  • The water phase transition in confinements in the organic molecules and in the ECM as well resulting in a proton jumping in the water chain
  • On larger compartments, a superconducting-like behavior with Josephson effects seems possible.
3. Pyramids possess science from ancient time and we suggest as a test to consider them as a kind of cavity resonator who supports coherent phenomena like long-range coherence effects in animate and inanimate matter.

https://sci-hub.se/https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/23828327/
Content from external source​
It's probably a very peculiar and pointless paper, but I include it here - as with earlier references - so that if anyone ever lands here while looking into the subject they'll be able to find all the necessary resources.
I haven't looked at this paper, and I'm not looking forward to it, for the following reasons:
* a hologram is a fancy photograph, not a "memory"; nothing in biological memories works like this
* looked into "liquid crystals" and hyaluronic acid, got something to do with carbon nanotube engineering and lots of "natural" cosmetics
* "water phase transition" is freezing/melting/boiling/condensation, don't see that happening in any human body
* what is a "water chain", and why would protons jump? free protons occur in high-energy physics and alpha radiation
* the Josephson effect is electrons tunneling through a narrow insulation layer in a superconductor.

Especially the latter looks like an attempt to justify why there should be electrical conduction in non-conduction tissue; somebody googled that and found the Josephson effect could allow that, so in it went; and then someone else pointed out the lack of any actual superconductors, so that turned to "superconductor-like", and expect all of this will turn out to be competely hypothetical and betray a failure to understand the cited effect except in a cargo-cult sort of way (woo).

I mean, writing "two mechanisms" and then listing three kinda makes me doubt they can even count.

So, basically, bluffing with big words, is what this looks like.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
A cursorary glance seems to indicate that the PVS does actually exist.
A more in-depth google search raises some doubts.
The inventor of the PVS used regular lab equipment, yet now we need a "patented microscope"? And Bong-Han's results from the 60s failed to be replicated for decades? These system are really really small, yet they can be reliably stimulated with needles? And what would the stimulation do? Why is there "circulation" in it? And how come all of the best biobuzzwords (DNA, stem cells) are floating in it even though DNA shouldn't be, and stem cells couldn't be given the small diameter of the tubes ("subcellular")?

Cue the debunkers.
Article:
Again, I can’t help but wonder if the disapproval of a Soviet scientist, Vladimir Yakovlevich Alexandrov, who had won the Stalin Award in 1943 and was been one of the powerful leaders in the USSR’s scientific community since the 1960s, had something to do with [Bong-Han Kim's] ultimate “disappearance”:

Given that Alexandrov was a cytologist and anatomist, he would probably have known.

The debunker goes on to quote nonsense like "the PVS may be an optical channel for photon emission" (a channel doesn't emit, it transmits, and we don't have optical fiber in our bodies) and "these electromagnetic waves may be transformed into information and that this information is stored in the DNA granules of the PVS" (DNA encodes information about the structure of proteins, the notion that it can be used to store and retrieve any information is more cargo cult science; there's no way to do that naturally).

Article:
Indeed, Kim used all light microscopy and various tracers; it beggars the imagination that in the early 1960s, given the century plus of scientists examining human tissues and cells under light microscopy before then, a lone North Korean scientist could discover structures that no one had ever described before using no new or innovative microscopy techniques.

So what we have here is decades-old research that's hard to replicate, and where people's notion of what it does seem to come more from wishful thinking than actual observations.

Here's another debunk:
Article:
Primo vessels were supposedly missed by anatomists because they are so small. They are reported to only be visible by electron microscopy, yet researchers have used dye to show them under a regular microscope. There has been speculation about their involvement in cancer metastasis: one paper provides images of a putative PVS cancer metastasis thread afloat in a lymph duct. PVS vessels are said to be too tiny to study by the usual methods of science, but some researchers say they have somehow learned that they are characterized by high resistance and low capacitance. They are allegedly studded with electrically charged nodes that attract nutrients, oxygen, and regulatory hormones. They allegedly transmit energy to organs and integrate the features of the cardiovascular, nervous, immune, and hormonal systems and serve as the physical substrate for acupuncture points and meridians.

Qi is re-interpreted as an electromagnetic wave involved very closely with the DNA in the PVS. “The PVS is the communication system between living organisms and the environments, and it lies at the lowest level of life.” The PVS consists of double-coated PVs that contain multiple subvessels, and PNs, nodes that gather and distribute the PVs and control the PVS fluid’s flow speed, direction, and contents. They hypothesize that DNA in PVS microcells stores information obtained from environmental physical fields such as electromagnetic fields. There is much speculation involving biophonons, biophotons, stem cells, etc.

I tried to read and understand this information, but I failed to make sense out of it. When that happens, I can’t help but wonder whether it’s my failure or the fact that the material simply doesn’t make sense. In this case, I strongly suspect the latter. Some of the material is close to incoherent, and some of it is self-contradictory.

[..]

More than half a century has elapsed since these structures were first described. After all this time, they have not been accepted by mainstream anatomists. They have not found their way into textbooks and are not being taught in medical schools. Keep in mind that scientists have been using electron microscopes for decades now, and if these structures existed in all animals and even plants, they would have been hard for electron microscopists to miss. Other researchers not connected to the group in South Korea have been unable to detect the PVS. Its existence is highly questionable, but never fear: “Richard C. Niemtzow has seen it [emphasis added] at the Nano Primo Research Center, Advanced Institute of Convergence Technology under the Direction of Dr. Kwang-Sup Soh in Seoul, South Korea.” You may remember Niemtzow as the Air Force colonel who made up battlefield ear acupuncture out of thin air. Even if he were a reliable, unbiased observer, it would be foolish to simply accept his assertion that he had “seen” the PVS as proof.

The language on PVS websites is metaphysical and pseudoscientific, not the language of science. I had to laugh out loud when I read that the PVS liquid could “aggregate to form stem cells”! I don’t know what to make of the pictures that have been published showing alleged PVS structures. They could be anything. I am reminded of the pictures of rope worms. There is indeed something in the pictures, but it’s not worms.


To me, it looks like "bottom of the class" researchers who don't understand what they're seeing, and instead of considering themselves failures, they think of themselves as researchers into alternate biology knowledge that is getting suppressed.

I'd really love to see that microscope patent of Vodyanoy...
 

Rory

Senior Member.
I mean, writing "two mechanisms" and then listing three kinda makes me doubt they can even count.

Indeed. And I'm pretty sure there are children who know that the plural of phenomenon isn't "phenomenon's" - yes, with the apostrophe - as was found in this 'interesting' paragraph:

Capture.JPG

"Which by now controversially discussed and to go new ways to come over the clutter" indeed.

To me, it looks like "bottom of the class" researchers who don't understand what they're seeing, and instead of considering themselves failures, they think of themselves as researchers into alternate biology knowledge that is getting suppressed.

Thanks for digging those links out. There's not too much about Vodyanoy - aside from a snide remark about his "patented" microscope (actually award winning and commercially available) - but all in all they read as bad news for the PVS idea.

Though before I clicked on them I was thinking "I hope this wasn't written by Harriet Hall" - and the third second one was! :D

I'd really love to see that microscope patent of Vodyanoy...

I think it might be one of the microscopes on this website here:

https://cytoviva.com/products/3d-enhanced-darkfield-imaging/
 
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Mendel

Senior Member.
Though before I clicked on them I was thinking "I hope this wasn't written by Harriet Hall" - and the third one was!
Yeah, half of that page is "acupuncture doesn't work, so the primovascular system can' t exist either", which I didn't quote; but I had also looked at some publications on the primovascular system, and her pointed, condensed collection of paraphrased claims seemed accurate enough.

(Oh, and the first two quotes were taken from the same a blog post.)

CytoViva does use Vodyanoy's technology, and it is well suited to observe and identify small structures with optical microscopes; that's a good find.

So the question I'm now left with is, if Vodyanov did indeed see some structures he couldn't identify as traditional anatomy, what are they? Are they real, or artefacts of the technology? (Or an attempt to sell microscopes to the gullible?) And if they are real, it'll take reliable investigations to find out what they are and what they do. As one debunker remarked, it's difficult to get enough of these small structures (or the fluid inside them) to be able to analyze what they actually are.

Also, on a microscopy slide, you'll only ever see a very short length of it, so it's impossible to support the notion that these vessels run all over the body with these small diameters from microscopic observations alone. As a layman, my guess would be that we're looking at the ends of a vascula system that gets ever smaller, like how the blood systems "tubes" shrink from veins to capillaries, and possibly beyond. And in that case, we should already have anatomical knowledge of the larger parts of this system, and it won't do anything new or exciting.

I'm pretty sure that, if there is ever settled science around this (i.e. if it doesn't turn out to be small versions of known structures), it won't be using the "primovascular" nomenclature, because that's thoroughly burned by all of these nonsense-sounding claims.
 
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Rory

Senior Member.
(Oh, and the first two quotes were taken from the same a blog post.)

That's funny: I wrote 'second' at first and then changed it later to third.

CytoViva does use Vodyanoy's technology

Yep, I think it's mostly owned by Auburn University, and Vodyanoy has shares.

 

Rory

Senior Member.
Well, I think this thread is just about done: the aim was to investigate a claim made by a Dr Motoyama (and popularised by Paul Grilley) that "a network of channels rich in hyaluronic acid exists in the body, conducts electricity, and corresponds to the ancient Chinese theory of meridians" and I'd say it's been pretty thoroughly accomplished.

What did we find? That Dr Motoyama is unquestionably guilty of some bad science and that his theory seems largely based on 'research' done using an 'electrodiagnostic device' much the same as many others used over the years and subsequently discredited and even 'banned'.

There doesn't really seem to be anything in it, other than some fanciful notions and wishful thinking. And if there's evidence to support the idea either we haven't found it, it doesn't exist, or someone is keeping it secret.

We also came across the competing and ever so slightly more feasible idea of PVS. I say "ever so slightly more feasible idea" because one of the proponents of it seems substantially more reputable than Motoyama. But only time will tell if there's anything in that.

Personally, I'm not totally against the idea of "energy channels" within the body - but I certainly haven't seen anything in papers, research, theories, etc to support it. I've never had acupuncture so can't really say anything about that. Friends have, of course, and mostly report good experiences - not always - but there are easily acceptable conventional explanations for that. And current literature and research seems to suggest the benefits of acupuncture are basically due to the placebo effort and perhaps the often healing experience of being listened to and cared for by another person.

The reasons I'm not totally against the idea of meridians are based on personal experience. Many years ago I spent quite a lot of time 'studying' with a kind of shaman and tai-chi master. I had a lot of life-changing experiences in his presence and a few of those were related to this idea. Some were to do with what he could do with "energy" - as well as his general presence and abilities (for sure, he appeared to have a few 'siddhis') - but mostly things I felt in my own body. One time, for example - this was after practicing a lot of meditation and chi gung - I went for a period of about three days pretty much constantly feeling a very tangible electricity coursing through my body, and most prominently felt in the palms of my hands and soles of my feet. I generally describe it as "50 volts" - though, in all honesty, I'm not really sure what 50 volts feel like (9 volts on the tip of my tongue I know, and 240 volts also; it was somewhere in between that) - but, in any case, it was large enough to be somewhat painful and annoying. Then on the third night it dissipated while I was giving a friend a head massage and took away her headache. Thankfully, I haven't had anything quite like that since (though perhaps mild versions on occasion).

Another experience that makes me think there is something in the meridian idea came about six months later, when I was sitting meditating in nature. I had my palms facing the sky and felt a wonderful surge of "energy" (there really is no better word) flowing into my right palm, up my arm, and into my chest. Similarly, in my left arm there was a flow of the same energy, but this one felt like a 'trickle'. It was a puzzling imbalance - and then after some minutes a mosquito landed close to my elbow, stuck its proboscis in me, and instantly the feeling of something flowing through my left arm matched the strength of the other one.

Ever since then I've generally let bugs bite me, joking that it's "free acupuncture". It wasn't the only time it seemed to have a beneficial effect. ;)

There are other reasons I have for maintaining a belief in some sort of system of "energy channels" with the physical being/body but I think that's more than enough talk on the subject. As for Motoyama and those who profess a belief in his "modern meridian theory", I hope they find their way here and read what we've presented with an open mind. There's already enough bunk and misinformation in the world. Probably we don't need more of it being spread by and to those seeking well-being and peace of mind.

And if we're wrong: bring on the evidence and the studies and the experiments and the tests. We'll all change our minds once something remotely convincing is presented, I'm sure. :)
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
I think what's objectionable about the "energy channel" concept are the efforts to represent it as something physical/biological, in a way that feels fake: not like someone doing research, but like someone using guesswork to support a belief.

I'm fine with thinking about these "energetic" connections as describing a spiritual/mental experience, like you do. There is no need to identify this concept of energy with the "energy" used in physics.
 
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