Claim sun paths prove flat earth

DavidB66

Active Member
The speaker in the video asks why hasn't the sun reached its highest point by 1.30?

First, has he allowed for daylight savings time? He doesn't say that he has, and most smartphones and other devices would have their default time display set to whatever is the official standard for their location. Most time zones in the United States would be on DST in July, with their clocks set an hour ahead of true solar time. If his display is set to DST, 1.30 is equivalent to 12.30 by solar time.

This still leaves a discrepancy of 30 minutes or so. The speaker does mention that he is near the edge of his time zone, so this could account for it.

Then there is the complication of mean solar time. The earth's orbit around the sun is slightly elliptical, and in accordance with Kepler's Laws it moves more quickly when it is closer to the sun (which in the northern hemisphere happens to be in the winter) than when it is further away. Since it would be inconvenient for the length of the hour or day to vary, the official time in any time zone is a compromise. Usually true solar midday is slightly later or earlier than the local clock time of 12 noon, even after allowing for the factors already mentioned.

I didn't understand the speaker's other points. He seems to find it odd that the sun rises somewhere to the north of east in July, but in the northern hemisphere, at around 44 degrees N, this is what we would expect in the summer, due to the inclination of the earth's axis. If he doesn't understand this basic point he is unlikely to be right about anything else.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Ok, first off, he forgot about daylight savings time. 1:30pm DST is actually 12:30 standard time, and he mentions living on the edge of the time zone, so being half an hour off is expected.

Secondly, his key assumption is that the sun revolves around him, and this assumption disproves Flat Earth.
image.jpeg
You probably noticed that he is using the 15° per hour sun travel. At 6am and 6pm local solar time (when the sun is in the zenith due south at noon solar time), this puts the sun exactly due east or due west, but on Flat Earth, the sun needs to be north of east and north of west at that time, because it circles the north pole and not the observer.

The 15° per hour sun travel should only work near the North pole and nowhere else on Flat Earth; but in reality, it even works in Australia, where the sun rises in the Southeast in December and the circuit absolutely goes the other way. This can only work if the sun is far away, and we're on a spinning ball.

Investigate and experiment
If you need to argue with someone, print out a polar azimuth map (the "flat earth" map, draw a circle for the path of the sun (look up the correct latitude for the date where the sun will be overhead that day), and mark the hours on that circle (you might want to find out where to put noon first. This is not controversial, and the FEer should accept that this is how the world works.
Then find the position where you live, and draw a circle on that position that looks somewhat like the circle I've screenshotted here. Determine the compass headings that the sun should appear at from your position by drawing lines from your observer position to the clock position you marked on the sun path. You will find out that this results in irregular slices, the progress is not 15° per hour, the day seems stretched (sun appears to move faster) and the night seems compressed (sun appears to move more slowly). A simple home-made sundial (e.g. a pencil stuck in a pizza box) can then be used to observe the sun (mark shadow positions on the pizza box, with times) and check if we see the Flat Earth angles as per the drawing, or steady 15° per hour progress.

image.png
(Image from youtuber Flat Earth Math)

Note that to see the 15° per hour on the pizza box exactly, it should be tilted such the pencil points at the North star (i.e. at an angle equal to 90° minus your latitude) and the box surface is perpendicular to it. This aligns the sundial with the Earth's axis.If you don't, the 15° per hour won't be quite accurate either.
 
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Trailspotter

Senior Member.
This guy makes a lot of false assumptions about how the Sun suppose to move in the sky according to the heliocentric model, so it is not surprising that his observations do not correspond to his assumptions.

The heliocentric model allows accurate calculations of the Sun position in the sky above any place on the globe Earth at any given time. There are apps and online calculators that anyone can use, for example, SunCalc.org.

I couldn't figure out where exactly in the States this guy located. Here is how the Sun moved on the specified date July 11, 2018 at Kansas City:
Screenshot 2020-04-24 at 16.24.42.png
https://www.suncalc.org/#/39.1051,-94.5955,11.363333333333324/2018.07.11/06:33/1/0
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
My question is why is the sun not at the right place at noon?
It depends on the definition of 'noon'. The Solar noon for a given location is the moment when the Sun reaches it highest point, which will exactly due South in the North hemisphere. the Solar noon does not coincide with 12 noon for a particular time zone and may deviate from it significantly, especially when Summer time is used.
 
I found his town and up the location and time into suncalc . I can't tell how well it pairs with what he presented in his video can you
 

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Trailspotter

Senior Member.
For the future what are some of his bad assumptions
Too many to list and to explain, and I'm not going to watch his video again. Play with SunCalc, mark the Sun positions at regular intervals and see for yourself that change of azimuth is not a uniform rotation of 15 deg per hour. Note that in Summer, the Sun rises North of East and sets North of West. Change date to Winter and see that the Sun rising and setting South of E and W, respectively.The Sun rises nearly exactly due East and sets due West only two days a year at equinox (on March 20 and September 22).
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
I can't really tell how close of a match suncalc and his measurements are can you tell me how to do this?
Whatever he's done, I won't call them 'measurements'. Why don't you try SunCalc for your location and do your own measurements. It will be a good learning exercise. I've just pointed my compass toward the Sun, and the reading (280°) was the same as SunCalc gave me for my location.

okay what angle should i measure altitude or azimuth

Start with azimuth first, this can be done with a Compass app.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
The observations in the video fit the globe and do not disprove it.
The best way to show this is to get a model globe and a flashlight, maybe use some bluetack to fix a small stick to the surface of the globe so you can see shadow, and then figure it out for yourself. Touching stuff is sometimes more helpful than reading a long explanation.
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
I got a total change in azimuth 239 way to high are we sure thats what he's using here

A 240° change is about correct.

What angle is he measuring
His app shows 'magnetic heading', which in his place differs from the true North by nearly +14°. It does not affect the total change, but gives different readings compared with SunCalc values.

Also could you check out the other post I made on him

He uses 'magnetic heading' in that video too. To get the difference from the geographical North, one need to add 14° to his readings.
 
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What's bothering me about the other one is how it seems to conflict with stellarium. And can you explain what math to use to analyze stuff like this
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
What's bothering me about the other one is how it seems to conflict with stellarium. And can you explain what math to use to analyze stuff like this
It does not conflict with stellarium, which, incidentally, I do not use myself. If one corrects for magnetic declination at his location (add 14 degrees to his reading), the Sun at 8 am was a bit to south of east, as it should be after September equinox.

You really need to learn all this stuff yourself, if you want to spot the bunk in his arguments. I found them of very little interest to myself.

I personally see no point arguing with the guy, who makes money out of Flat Earthers, feeding their belief. He is not likely to admit his shortcomings.
 

Mendel

Senior Member.
Especially for various sun observations, I can recommend the youtube channel Flat Earth Math. I recommend to start watching with his oldest videos. He sets up observations, and thoroughly explains how they would work on Flat Earth and the globe.
 

Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Astronomy isn't easy, even at this level. You need to educate yourself in the basic concepts and nomenclature. This guy is so sloppy it's painful to watch.

Source: https://youtu.be/9XHoVF2G0j8


This is another good resource: Source: https://youtu.be/cun0DGZ6-sk


It's a basic training film for U.S. Navy aerial navigators. Circa 1970. It gives a very clear explanation of a complex subject. It also illustrates how silly FE is. Celestial navigation wouldn't work on a FE. But it does work.
 
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Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
Bottom Line: This guy is missing a key bit of knowledge. He hasn't educated himself on the subject but thinks he knows everything he needs to know.
See this post:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/another-sun-path-claim.11231/#post-238509



You might also want to look up: Dunning-Kruger Effect:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

 
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Z.W. Wolf

Senior Member.
What knowledge is he missing

------>Magnetic Declination<------


See this post:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/another-sun-path-claim.11231/#post-238509

Please read what we're posting.

What else?
-Doesn't know where the Sun should rise and set, or the Sun's path in general. Makes a strawman assumption.
-Has no real understanding of solar time vs local time.
-Uses sloppy methods to make measurements.

What else? I don't know. I'm not putting any more effort into this.
 
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Mechanik

Active Member
I'm still stuck on the claim that his observations prove the flat earth. As far as I can tell, the only thing he sort-of-proved is that the path of the sun is a circle on a plane. That was proven thousands of years ago and was the basis of the original discovery that the earth was a sphere. The seasonal changes in that plane could only be explained by a tilted, rotating earth orbiting the sun. It's a complete non sequitur to go from a planar orbit to flat earth proof.

The fact that he noted 8+ hours of darkness should be proof enough that the earth is a sphere.
 

Trailspotter

Senior Member.
I identified the exact location at the time of sunset in Washington Ave, Ontario, OR.
Screenshot 2020-04-25 at 10.06.19.png
Screenshot 2020-04-25 at 10.11.23.png
Placing this location in SanCal shows that the Sun at 9:18 PM local time was in about the same direction as in the video. The actual Sun azimuth was 300°, or 60° west from north, which differs from the author's compass reading (75° to 80° west from north) by at least 15°. This difference is in a good agreement with the local magnetic declination of +14°.
Screenshot 2020-04-25 at 09.46.43.png
Screenshot 2020-04-25 at 10.40.16.png
 
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