Claim: Organ donors give up their right of being totally dead before donating & may still feel pain

Esther L

New Member
Can someone give me links to prove or disprove what this doctor, Dr. claims to be true?
... He states that there are many cases where so called :dead people: still feel pain when their organs are removed based on signs of increased B/P and major twitching movements. He says, there should be more tests done to prove one is really dead and that if you don't sign a donor card, you and your relatives will have more leverage in getting these tests done before allowing organ donation.
http://worldtruth.tv/what-you-lose-when-you-sign-that-organ-donor-card-shocking/
 

deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
Can someone give me links to prove or disprove what this doctor, Dr. claims to be true?
... He states that there are many cases where so called :dead people: still feel pain when their organs are removed based on signs of increased B/P and major twitching movements. He says, there should be more tests done to prove one is really dead and that if you don't sign a donor card, you and your relatives will have more leverage in getting these tests done before allowing organ donation.
http://worldtruth.tv/what-you-lose-when-you-sign-that-organ-donor-card-shocking/
its a long article. I'm having a hard time finding your section.
1. what doctor is making these claims?
2. can you copy/paste his exact claim. as my quick, brief read through I'm not really seeing your interpretation of the claim.

as far as organ donor law, it seems each country has different laws. so are we talking the United States here?
 

NoParty

Senior Member
Can someone give me links to prove or disprove what this doctor, Dr. claims to be true?
... He states that there are many cases where so called :dead people: still feel pain when their organs are removed based on signs of increased B/P and major twitching movements. He says, there should be more tests done to prove one is really dead and that if you don't sign a donor card, you and your relatives will have more leverage in getting these tests done before allowing organ donation.
http://worldtruth.tv/what-you-lose-when-you-sign-that-organ-donor-card-shocking/
Hi Esther, and welcome.
I read the article...
While WorldTruth.tv is, in general, a terribly unreliable source, this particular article is basically a re-print from the
somewhat more reputable (well, on certain matters, anyway) ;) Wall Street Journal
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204603004577269910906351598

Dr. Robert Truog is clearly not making any claim that dead people still feel pain...he only says that he didn't use the
'rock' metaphor...likely because it could be interpreted as insensitive to families...
Possibly telling, though: Truog does not seem
to distance himself from the implications (that dead = no pain) of the 'rock' quote.

Author Dick Tirisi
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/books/review/the-undead-by-dick-teresi.html?_r=0
writes about science stuff, but is not and has never been a doctor, so that can't be who you
mean, either.



ETA: As I was typing this long-winded response, deirdre basically cut to the chase:
that there doesn't seem to be any doctor making any such claim...
 
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Hevach

Senior Member
The claims of donors showing signs of surgical distress are true - there are medically documented cases, and there's dispute about whether they were simply unsuitable donors (i.e. not yet brain dead) or if a genuine phenomenon of physiological response without a neurological one.

However, all that is irrelevant with regards to organ donor cards. Yes, doctors have skirted rules, half-assed tests, harvested organs from unsavable patients rather than simply brain dead ones (technically this improves the chances of a successful transplant, since organs can start dying very quickly after the brain even with life support hooked up, so as awful a thing as it is, there's medical incentive), but none of those are nefarious terms you agree to when you sign your organ donor card... They're medical malpractice.

It happens with all types of donations, not just card donors. What the article omits is that those are legally and ethically required in ALL CASES, the United Network for Organ Sharing has allowed perfectly viable organs to be discarded rather than donated if they find these tests lacking. If a doctor will half-ass or outright falsify them for a card donor, they will half-ass or outright falsify them to the family as well.

In fact, there's a slightly better chance of that working if the family approves the donation, because in that case, the doctor seeking the donation can request a directed donation to a specific patient, bypassing the transplant list and keeping any approval process in the hospital, where an outside transplant board like UNOS can't reject the organ.
 
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deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
its also in the wall street journal, which is odd considering the inconsistencies and quote from Dr. truog that he never said such a thing.


inconsistencies such as:

but then the article mentions the Uniform Determination of Death Act which states no brain activity anywhere.
 

deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
an informative thread/forum of a transcript response to the article.

 

Esther L

New Member
Hi Esther, and welcome.
I read the article...
While WorldTruth.tv is, in general, a terribly unreliable source, this particular article is basically a re-print from the
somewhat more reputable (well, on certain matters, anyway) ;) Wall Street Journal
http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204603004577269910906351598

Dr. Robert Truog is clearly not making any claim that dead people still feel pain...he only says that he didn't use the
'rock' metaphor...likely because it could be interpreted as insensitive to families...
Possibly telling, though: Truog does not seem
to distance himself from the implications (that dead = no pain) of the 'rock' quote.

Author Dick Tirisi
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/01/books/review/the-undead-by-dick-teresi.html?_r=0
writes about science stuff, but is not and has never been a doctor, so that can't be who you
mean, either.



ETA: As I was typing this long-winded response, deirdre basically cut to the chase:
that there doesn't seem to be any doctor making any such claim...
Thank you No Party, I had forgot to insert the dr's name, Dr. Robert Truog, is who I was referring to. But I was wondering if the article was legit in that some people can feel pain during the harvesting of their organs.
Whether this is unethical or illegal, won't affect the "dead" person but it will sure make their last minutes on earth a living hell. :-(
 

deirdre

Moderator
Staff member
Thank you No Party, I had forgot to insert the dr's name, Dr. Robert Truog, is who I was referring to. But I was wondering if the article was legit in that some people can feel pain during the harvesting of their organs.
Whether this is unethical or illegal, won't affect the "dead" person but it will sure make their last minutes on earth a living hell. :-(
read through all the links provided. (blue text)

Efft up's shows what procedures are required. and other links talk of brain dead vs pain. if the total brain is not functioning (as per law..the TOTAL brain) then there would not be an ability to feel pain. seems to be the consensus of what I've read researching your article. and Dr. Truog (in that article) says they don't feel pain.

if the authors 'evidence' is twitching, as you put it... see my response above yours. the twitching is not evidence of brain activity according to Drs.
 

Efftup

Senior Member
Yes, I think we are a LONG way from the Monty Python "Live Organ Transplants" (I decided NOT to link the video).

I can't remember if this was the US or the UK I was rerading but there was definitely something about 2 doctors being required to declare brain death and NEITHER was allowed to be part of the organ tranplanting procedure (so you don;t get a dr hanging about for a liver going "yeah, he;s definitely dead"

I am sure the link I posted ALSO said they have to monitor them for 6 hours AFTER brain death declared to make sure there is nothing that would suggest it was a misdiagnosis.

It is sad, because it is certainly clear this type of malpractice is rare if ever happening but a scare story like this will put people off donating, and as such is as damaging to overall health as antivaxxers.
 

Whitebeard

Senior Member
This is the standard UK procedure...
http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Organ-donation/Pages/Donationprocess.aspx

 
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