Claim: Evidence for use of "Breaching Round" at Sandy Hook

Michael Mitchell

New Member
I've searched the forum and cant find anything addressing the front window apparently being shot out with a shot gun.

Here's a site outlining the issue — https://fellowshipoftheminds.com/20...of-grey-powder-from-shotguns-breaching-round/

2-police-breaching-round-shattered-sandy-hook-window-not-adam-lanza-ar-15-sandy-hook-inside-job.png sandy-hook-shattered-glass.jpg sh13.jpg

If Adam's shotgun was left in the car (and he likely didnt have breaching rounds anyway) why would a responder have shot this window if it was already blown out?
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Looks like a bullet hole to me. One large central hole. Minor other damage from glass fragments. Not close to the window (hole is in the center of the image below.


20160417-221117-c4v3c.jpg
 

derwoodii

Senior Member
i suspect this is a 223 round rotating & fragmenting after window penetration and the impact to bookshelf is what known as keyhole when in bullet goes into object side ways


I'd say best way to ague claim is find pictures of the spent 223 shell cases on site they should be on floor and pavement tho i rather not dig through the scene picture as unpleasant and disturbing task

Read more: http://www.cbs46.com/story/21814424...es-sandy-hook-warrants-released#ixzz46AIDN7qJ
 

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member
There's a couple of problems here:

why would a responder have shot this window if it was already blown out
Quite simply - they wouldn't. Breaching rounds are for doors, not windows. Breaching rounds are frangible loads designed to destroy locks/frames/hinges etc with minimal over penetration.

Using a breaching shotgun on a window is overkill and unnecessarily dangerous. There is no need to use a breaching round on a window, they shatter using several tools such as window punches or hammers, usually in the top corner of the window pane, and after that the "method of entry" (MOE) man rakes the excess glass out of the frame before the team makes entry as opposed to attempting to climb through a restrictive hole that may cut the team to pieces.

However, I recognise that the story is supposed to reflect that this is police/FBI creating the scene to 'setup' Lanza.

@Mick West already made the point with the pictures above - the damage is way too small and localised on that magazine rack to have been caused by a shotgun. There's no surrounding damage to the rest of the rack, and the crime scene measure shows the span to be not more than three inches total. Even if this was a frangible round, there'd be substantial damage to the wooden rack, as that's what those rounds are designed for.
If you google around you'll be able to find plenty of targets hit by a shotgun showing the extent of damage they leave, even when choked down and in close range, which is not consistent with what we see here. The extent of damage caused to the wood may be keyholing like @derwoodii suggested, or that the shot just struck at an oblique angle and the round took a large chunk of wood with it.

It's a bit of a stretch, and Im no ballistics guy, but the grey smudging may be unburnt powder or soot from a close range shot? Again, probably reaching, but a potential explanation for the grey smudges. Im a bit lazy with my google-fu tonight so wont be trawling thru looking for propellant/GSR tattooing patterns etc...

It makes no sense to use the window as part of a setup - if they wanted to create an easy setup scenario then just say Lanza walked in through the doors and started shooting.
 

BombDr

Senior Member
Quite simply - they wouldn't. Breaching rounds are for doors, not windows. Breaching rounds are frangible loads designed to destroy locks/frames/hinges etc with minimal over penetration.

I beg to respectfully differ. This does look like a breaching round, and I would indeed shoot through a full length glass window with a single round rather than shoot multiple rounds at a security door.

The reasons for this is that the door may have multiple hinges and lock bolts, and each one would need shooting off, and basic tactical thinking is avoid pausing, and framing yourself in a doorway.

Your second point about breaking the glass: Its harder than in looks. In schools they will tempered safety glass, and this is significant as it is double glazed and both panes will need breaching separately with a glass punch, which again is not what you want to be doing when seconds count.

I don't claim to know exactly what caused the damage in the photos, but I believe there is merit in the breaching round theory for the reasons above.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
some pics and info that might be helpful to somebody.

the vid (is a debunk of something else).. not sure what's in it so cant do timestamps, i know he discusses the exact bullets that were found/Lanza used.

all pics are in the lobby or just out front of the front doors. (most are found in Walkley "scene" photos) ...i only found one other bullet mark that looked like maybe some grey powder around shot/richochet ??

 

Attachments

occams rusty scissor

Senior Member
I beg to respectfully differ. This does look like a breaching round, and I would indeed shoot through a full length glass window with a single round rather than shoot multiple rounds at a security door.
I appreciate your opinion as a 'been there, done that' guy with experience in the matter. However would you consider it being good drills to go for a glass panel with the breachers shotgun apparently smack bang in the middle of the pane, given the backstop is a very open plan room where kids/hostages are potentially hiding behind objects? Or making entry while leaving the surrounding glass in place without raking it out? (Not having a go, Im just outlining my thoughts on it)

For others who havent seen it, here's generally how Police Tac groups breach windows:

Point to consider is the raking of the remaining glass, which is not evident in the crime scene photos.

Frange rounds tend to spread quickly - looking at this picture, do you think there's enough damage present on the rack consistent with a 12g? There's no damage to surrounding furniture etc. although tough to see from the angles presented.



In the video @deirdre posted above there's a good explanation at about 3mins as to how/why it's possible for a soft tip .223 round to expand dramatically and cause fragmentation consistent to what is seen on the magazine rack.

I haven't read through the whole report but from what I remember of it, Lanza was not reported as using a shotgun at all during the shooting, is that correct?
 
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deirdre

Senior Member
I haven't read through the whole report but from what I remember of it, Lanza was not reported as using a shotgun at all during the shooting, is that correct?
no. he didnt use a shootgun at the school. a few shotgun bullets were found in the school but those were nonfired and were traced to specific officers/swat etc who had dropped them in the course of their search.

I dont think the hoaxer's premise is that the police breached the school by shooting out the window, i think the premise is they "set it up to look like Lanza shot the glass". Remember... it's a hoax :)

the back door window (which was most probably flimsier glass as it wasnt a full sheet ground level window), was busted out by
"The door was locked and Ofc Seabrook smashed out the glass in the door with his rifle barrel and he unlocked the door from the inside." file number 00260187
 

BombDr

Senior Member
I appreciate your opinion as a 'been there, done that' guy with experience in the matter. However would you consider it being good drills to go for a glass panel with the breachers shotgun apparently smack bang in the middle of the pane, given the backstop is a very open plan room where kids/hostages are potentially hiding behind objects? Or making entry while leaving the surrounding glass in place without raking it out? (Not having a go, Im just outlining my thoughts on it)
It depends on the approach: From the third picture on the thread, there appears to be no hard cover to protect yourself with while dealing with the method of entry, so a team may have made a tactical calculation of least-worst option which is to gain entry through the window to avoid complications on the doors, and to limit the time exposed without hard cover. Additionally there are multiple types of breaching round, including some made of wax that transfers force to an object then dissipates into essentially hot candle wax - not pleasant hitting you in the face, but not lethal either. The glass itself, being at a school is almost certainly of the type that separates into small squares and not shards to limit the injury factor, so I would make the call that the glass would not significantly increase the risk of injury to anyone inside, or at least not more than an active gunman with a rifle.

Again, I am stating things hypothetically as I do not know for sure if this was the case here, but I would be prepared to take risk on the round and the glass, over the greater risk of being stationary in a doorway and taking time on an entry with an active gunman in the school.

Thanks for the video, I don't know who the team is but the first guy frames himself in the window for 18 seconds and ignores the perfectly good double-skin brick wall he could have used to protect himself, and his No 2 guy sites himself in a position that he cannot effectively return fire with his breacher in his path. The rest of the team helpfully line themselves up in single file so they cannot mutually support each other and can be shot one after the other in succession. This does appear to be a training exercise, so perhaps the range safety did not allow breaching rounds to be used there, but in anycase, once the first hammer was through the window, I would have followed it with my body, and not taken multiple hits to clear every inch of the frame of debris.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
Again, I am stating things hypothetically as I do not know for sure if this was the case here, but I would be prepared to take risk on the round and the glass, over the greater risk of being stationary in a doorway and taking time on an entry with an active gunman in the school.
it wasnt the case. Parents arriving at the school reported the front window being shot out before they called 911. Before police arrived. Teachers reported hearing the glass shot out before police arrived.

Lanza used the XM15 to shoot out the glass. Based on timeline of witnesses, the shell casings found outside and no indication that i saw in the Police report that the gun in the car had been fired that day (he used a third long barrel to shoot his mom previously, which he left on the bedroom floor).

I read all first responders statements on scene. No police shot a gun at all that day. No police shot out the front window according to the report.

could a breaching round make a hole like this?
br.PNG
 

BombDr

Senior Member
it wasnt the case. Parents arriving at the school reported the front window being shot out before they called 911. Before police arrived. Teachers reported hearing the glass shot out before police arrived.
I think you have effectively debunked the claim then.

But answering your second question, it would depend on the round. Some are solid and of various materials, others are designed to spread out, but transfer force.
 

deirdre

Senior Member
I think you have effectively debunked the claim then.
silly.
The point is, it was NOT a breaching round that caused the grey stuff on the bookcase or the wall in the lobby. So .. how do soft tip bullets produce grey stuff when they hit things.? a richochet affect?
 

derwoodii

Senior Member
silly.
The point is, it was NOT a breaching round that caused the grey stuff on the bookcase or the wall in the lobby. So .. how do soft tip bullets produce grey stuff when they hit things.? a richochet affect?

lead particle - vapor as they disintegrate, this is 223 round vs steel plate painted white you can see the grey sneers left as bullet smashes itself

WP_20160102_007.jpg
 

BombDr

Senior Member
The point is, it was NOT a breaching round that caused the grey stuff on the bookcase or the wall in the lobby. So .. how do soft tip bullets produce grey stuff when they hit things.? a richochet affect?
If we have ruled out a shotgun round, as Derwoodii has explained the core of the 5.56mm rounds Lanza used are lead and will break up on contact with anything, depending on the brand and type of rounds used. Does anyone know this information?
 

Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member
Sellier & Bellot 5.56x45 SS109 (62gr) round, apparently.

I don't pretend to understand all of what I just typed, but I'm reasonably sure it's accurate.
 

Spectrar Ghost

Senior Member
I appreciate it. Basic dimensions I can handle, though grains give me fits. Until 5 minutes ago I thought grains measured the propulsive charge. I guess it's the projectile weight though.

Is the ss109 just an internal model number or could I just ask for ss109 and get similar rounds from several manufacturers?

Those who've never fired anything bigger than a .22, not more than 50 rounds total, and certainly not in the last two decades, want to know.
 

CeruleanBlu

Active Member
Is the ss109 just an internal model number or could I just ask for ss109 and get similar rounds from several manufacturers?
It's standardized:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#SS109.2FM855

And another great resource on describing the ammo.

http://datab.us/i/5.56×45mm NATO

 

derwoodii

Senior Member
this vid shows some more bullet frag impact at 40 sec looks like the / or bits a round passed tho window hit bookcase then table next chair


the bullet/ projectiles i shoot are nossler 55g 223 cal copper jacket lead core plastic tipped in this no smear of grey is left as much depends upon the steel grade and paint adhesion

I suspect the window glass took the force deformed the round it fragged shedding lead while the main portion went on sideways in book case table chair



WP_20160124_006.jpg

more grey lead residue powder oh 2 bigger hits here are 308 rounds & this is a 200 yards not 2 yards as per window

WP_20151004_008.jpg
 

derwoodii

Senior Member
key holing paper inprints from AR 223 platform due to barrel issues

target photos.jpg
vs tumbling damaged projectile imprint

2-police-breaching-round-shattered-sandy-hook-window-not-adam-lanza-ar-15-sandy-hook-inside-job.png

the table projectile hit imprint

keyhole2.PNG
 

Andrew LB

New Member
I have yet to see any evidence of a 5.56 round having its lead core completely vaporized which would be a requirement of that residue being from the lead core of the bullet and not a door breaching round. One previous poster shows images of a "tumbler" which has nothing to do with this thread if one is to believe the lead core vaporized. Either it vaporized into a powder which landed apart from the hole in the bookshelf or the core stayed intact and the whole was caused by a tumbler. You can't have it both ways.

As direct evidence that there is no possible way that a relatively thin (1/4" maybe?) tempered glass window caused a 5.56 to not only rip apart, but to have its lead core turned into a powder, i give you a short video taken by myself a while back after a friend who ran a local indoor range had a regular customer stop by with some 2" bullet resistant glass that was scratched and was not usable for a job, and we felt it our duty to put it go good use.


Now keep in mind that this same type of round was being allegedly used by Adam Lanza, the difference is the glass in the front of the school was NOT bulletproof and was significantly less thick. It wasn't even the type of tempered glass that you see in automotive windshields which at least would have put up a little bit of a fight before succumbing to 3000 feet per second velocity, let alone rip the bullet apart and turn to powder its lead core. The only rounds i have ever seen cause damage even remotely close to what is seen at sandy hook are Hornady TAP that first went through 1" thick bullet resistant glass before striking ballistics gel. You will not see that type of behavior from any other jacketed hollowpoints.
 

derwoodii

Senior Member
I have yet to see any evidence of a 5.56 round having its lead core completely vaporized which would be a requirement of that residue being from the lead core of the bullet and not a door breaching round. One previous poster shows images of a "tumbler" which has nothing to do with this thread if one is to believe the lead core vaporized. Either it vaporized into a powder which landed apart from the hole in the bookshelf or the core stayed intact and the whole was caused by a tumbler. You can't have it both ways.

As direct evidence that there is no possible way that a relatively thin (1/4" maybe?) tempered glass window caused a 5.56 to not only rip apart, but to have its lead core turned into a powder, i give you a short video taken by myself a while back after a friend who ran a local indoor range had a regular customer stop by with some 2" bullet resistant glass that was scratched and was not usable for a job, and we felt it our duty to put it go good use.


Now keep in mind that this same type of round was being allegedly used by Adam Lanza, the difference is the glass in the front of the school was NOT bulletproof and was significantly less thick. It wasn't even the type of tempered glass that you see in automotive windshields which at least would have put up a little bit of a fight before succumbing to 3000 feet per second velocity, let alone rip the bullet apart and turn to powder its lead core. The only rounds i have ever seen cause damage even remotely close to what is seen at sandy hook are Hornady TAP that first went through 1" thick bullet resistant glass before striking ballistics gel. You will not see that type of behavior from any other jacketed hollowpoints.

let me try to help with your claims
1. I have yet to see any evidence of a 5.56 round having its lead core completely vaporized

this is 223 round impacting steel plate this i posted at #13 note grey vaporized lead core dust these rounds i make & shoot myself

WP_20160102_007.jpg

lets compare that grey residue with the thread picture claim, fairly similar.


2-police-breaching-round-shattered-sandy-hook-window-not-adam-lanza-ar-15-sandy-hook-inside-job.png

2. One previous poster shows images of a "tumbler" which has nothing to do with this thread
not entirely true it illustrates how 233 projectiles can tumble and the impact print is again similar as the thread impact claim

keyhole2.PNG

the key hole found and desk looks much alike the key hole on paper

target photos.jpg


3. Either it vaporized into a powder which landed apart from the hole in the bookshelf or the core stayed intact and the whole was caused by a tumbler. You can't have it both ways.

I agree, its tricky to explain but the documented evidence here says other wise, perhaps you can help here maybe there were several shots and some rounds under impact went pftt to dust and other ricocheted, I just dont know and really dont wish to pursue the concept much further as the topic is very sad and those few who some how think was a false flag construct often difficult & unpleasant work with.
 

semperfidelis

New Member
I have probably as much experience with the military versions of this weapon, the M16A2 and the M4, as anyone (over 20 years) so:

I would doubt the bullet would vaporize upon hitting the glass. It takes a lot of force, more than generated by glass and very thin wood, to cause a round to collapse and its core to vaporize.

I am guessing, guessing, that perhaps the shooter was standing so close to the window and book case that the marks are powder burns, but I really can't be sure.

Yes the .223 has a tendency to tumble...after a significant impact. It flies straight until hitting something. I have hit targets at ranges of up to 800 yards and have never seen a round tumble without hitting something first. The glass was neither thick enough nor far enough away from the bookcase to either cause the tumble or give the round enough time to tumble.
 
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