Charles Bukowski quote

[Hartski]

I'm a big lover of irony, so I had to share this...

The following meme popped up on my Facebook (reposted from a Charles Bukowski 'tribute' page) accompanied with a comment from the poster :

"Yea I would fully agree with this. Most of the confident extroverted types in this world are as thick as pig s***, emotionally and mentally lol !!"

It is a shame however, he didn't doubt the quote and check it out....

The closest approximation of the quote is actually attributed to Bertrand Russell in 1933:

The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt.– Bertrand Russell, The Triumph of Stupidity from Mortals and Others VolII: Bertrand Russell's American Essays, 1931-1935 (Routledge, 1998), p. 28

EDIT - Or you could go earlier to WB Yeats from his 'Second Coming' poem:

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

The closest Bukowski came to that quote was from an interview in the 80's:

"But the problem is that bad writers tend to have the self-confidence, while the good ones tend to have self-doubt."

Semantically similar, but over 50yrs after Russell and Yeats.
Its an excellent demonstration from the meme makers and the re-posters; of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes

Sometimes it's difficult to separate Dunning-Kruger from just plain old gullibility; and how can we really distinguish it from the (misnamed) Barnum Effect (really, the Forer Effect)?

Sniffing out stupid and humorous, and sometimes malicious, distortions of history, we run into people under the spell of the effect way too often.

https://timpanogos.wordpress.com/dunning-kruger-effect/

I didn't have the heart to tell him.... [removed off topic comment that may lead to off topic discussion]
Now, am I experiencing Dunning-Kruger by posting this....?

 

[Mick West]

Now, am I experiencing Dunning-Kruger by posting this....?

Probably. I think it's important to note that DK is something that we all share in. We all have biases that we are blind to, and areas of unwarranted certainty. It's a danger to divide the world into the stupid and the intelligent, as there's really a vast variety of spectrums there. We are all stupid sometimes, it's very much context dependent.

 

[deirdre]

Its an excellent demonstration from the meme makers and the re-posters; of the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

Content from external source The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes

Content from external source Sometimes it's difficult to separate Dunning-Kruger from just plain old gullibility; and how can we really distinguish it from the (misnamed) Barnum Effect (really, the Forer Effect)?

Sniffing out stupid and humorous, and sometimes malicious, distortions of history, we run into people under the spell of the effect way too often.

https://timpanogos.wordpress.com/dunning-kruger-effect/

I didn't have the heart to tell him.... [removed off topic comment that may lead to off topic discussion]
Now, am I experiencing Dunning-Kruger by posting this....?

Now, am I experiencing Dunning-Kruger by posting this....?

yes

 

[deirdre]

While i agree the quote probably should be attributed to Russell, would seem odd if he hadnt read Yeats prior to his thought.

In 1920 W. B. Yeats published the poem "The Second Coming", and the final two lines of the first section presented an instance of the saying. Boldface has been added to excerpts:1

The Second Coming

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

http://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/03/04/self-doubt/

 

[Mick West]

Another problem with DK is that those who are most affected by it (i.e. those who most over-estimate their own understanding of a topic) are the least likely to be helped by bringing it up. I feel it's generally counterproductive to mention it in the conspiracysphere.

Like the bible says:

Do not rebuke mockers or they will hate you; rebuke the wise and they will love you.

The wise respond best to debunking, but they are usually least in need of it.

 

[deirdre]

oh and your debunk quote seems wrong. the book is called "Mortals and Others", 'The Triumph of Stupidity' is the title of a chapter/essay in the book.

and the quote he writes is:

https://books.google.com/books?id=_qfrAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA27&dq=The+Triumph+of+Stupidity+in+Mortals+and+Others&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjosdvVgofNAhUMM1IKHRD6DJUQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others&f=false

 

[Hartski]

oh and your debunk quote seems wrong. the book is called "Mortals and Others", 'The Triumph of Stupidity' is the title of a chapter/essay in the book.
View attachment 19337

and the quote he writes is:
View attachment 19338

https://books.google.com/books?id=_qfrAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA27&dq=The+Triumph+of+Stupidity+in+Mortals+and+Others&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjosdvVgofNAhUMM1IKHRD6DJUQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=The Triumph of Stupidity in Mortals and Others&f=false

Thanks Deirdre. I was aware of Yeats, and should have expanded more. <wrist-slap> (I'll make some edits to the OP)
It wasn't so much a debunk as such, but an observation and self-imposed example of DK.

As Mick says, we all share it to a degree.

Interesting psychology.

 

[deirdre]

but an observation and self-imposed example of DK

i dont agree with that based on what you shared. i, like the poster, agree with the quote and i dont care who it is attributed to. While finding the original source is interesting to me personally, it isnt a requirement when i read thought provoking quotes.

Eitehr way, this is the "quotes debunked" forum, not a place for you to mock or comment on some Truther you have interactions with. It's not the forum to contemplate DK. Next time use the "Metadebunking" forum.

 

[Hartski]

In that case, I apologise, and please remove the thread.

 

[rnippoldt]

Probably. I think it's important to note that DK is something that we all share in. We all have biases that we are blind to, and areas of unwarranted certainty. It's a danger to divide the world into the stupid and the intelligent, as there's really a vast variety of spectrums there. We are all stupid sometimes, it's very much context dependent.

I appreciate the DK effect. In my career I have been on both sides of it; once coming out of college and once mentoring new people after 30 years of experience. I now approach teaching others differently. Now I try to teach how to think so the answer becomes clear; before I would pile on details until the answer was produced.

 

[NoParty]

I agree with Mick that bringing up DK to those most affected by it is usually not going to be productive,

but I also think that the principal is important for young people to understand,

as they will encounter hundreds of cocksure blowhards over their lives...and, for some reason,

there seems to be something in human nature that makes some people trust someone who never admits error.