Carnicom isolates Morgellon's DNA!!

MikeC

Closed Account
Article on Carnicom's site....

DNA has been successfully isolated from cultures that have been developed. The samples are based upon the cross-domain bacteria isolation methods referred to previously. The tests have been repeated on numerous occasions with identical positive results. The methods use classical methods of DNA extraction. These methods involve the mechanical or chemical decomposition of the original biological material and the use of salt, ice, detergents, enzymes and ethanol.
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They even have photos of DNA from ..

....oral filaments in association with the so-called "Morgellons" condition
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And an "equipment fundraiser" donation button - they have $820 so far!!
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Article on Carnicom's site....

DNA has been successfully isolated from cultures that have been developed. The samples are based upon the cross-domain bacteria isolation methods referred to previously. The tests have been repeated on numerous occasions with identical positive results. The methods use classical methods of DNA extraction. These methods involve the mechanical or chemical decomposition of the original biological material and the use of salt, ice, detergents, enzymes and ethanol.
Content from External Source
They even have photos of DNA from ..

....oral filaments in association with the so-called "Morgellons" condition
Content from External Source
And an "equipment fundraiser" donation button - they have $820 so far!!
Let's see if they publish their results and get peer review by DNA experts . . .
 

Bill

Senior Member.
Article on Carnicom's site....

DNA has been successfully isolated from cultures that have been developed. The samples are based upon the cross-domain bacteria isolation methods referred to previously. The tests have been repeated on numerous occasions with identical positive results. The methods use classical methods of DNA extraction. These methods involve the mechanical or chemical decomposition of the original biological material and the use of salt, ice, detergents, enzymes and ethanol.
Content from External Source
They even have photos of DNA from ..

....oral filaments in association with the so-called "Morgellons" condition
Content from External Source
And an "equipment fundraiser" donation button - they have $820 so far!!
I see from the photograph the got the big DNA. That's so much easier to work with than the microscopic DNA the labs keep fooling around with.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Yep - makes it much easier to analyse when the DNA is actually bigger than the fibers themselves!! ;)

although tbh I think that they mean that the "big dna" is more than 1 strand.....but I find the write up pretty confused and waffly
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I visited their donation page. Their stated goal:
Carnicom Institute needs to acquire Polymerase Chain Reaction (PCR) equipment to amplify DNA isolations that have recent been achieved. This equipment is normally much more expensive but we can build a kit at a fraction of the price with your help. We wish to buy and allow shipping costs for the Open Source Thermocycler for PCR from http://openpcr.org. We will build it if you can help us acquire the kit. We wish to advance this work promptly. Thank you very much for your help. - See more at: http://www.youcaring.com/nonprofits/dna-phase-i-research/129862#sthash.swuspV4V.dpuf
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http://www.youcaring.com/nonprofits/dna-phase-i-research/129862
I'm glad to see they not going to put this in the hands of objective experts. They might not get the conclusions they've already ready reached.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Uhm...how does he know it is "Morgellon's" DNA and not just DNA from things you would expect to find in your mouth?
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
Ive done a bit of reading on Morgellons, and I just want to make sure I understand what it is exactly... Is my understanding that its a sensation of bugs/parasites crawling on the body or biting etc accurate? Only reason I ask is because the symptoms seem to cover everything from MS type symptoms to Firbromyalgia(sp?) and 'coke bugs'
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Ive done a bit of reading on Morgellons, and I just want to make sure I understand what it is exactly... Is my understanding that its a sensation of bugs/parasites crawling on the body or biting etc accurate? Only reason I ask is because the symptoms seem to cover everything from MS type symptoms to Firbromyalgia(sp?) and 'coke bugs'

Sounds about right. It's proposed to be some undiscovered organism and some people say they're associated with chemtrails. I'd say that Lyme disease likely plays a role in many cases. Paranoia also seems to be a common theme in people who claim to suffer from it. It's unfortunate, but that really seems to be the case.
 
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Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
How much would it cost for thorough testing of those samples from a third party?

Not sure, really. They could do PCR themselves with a kit for about $250-300, but you could do it even cheaper than that if you did it the old school way where you don't need an automated thermocycler.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Uhm...how does he know it is "Morgellon's" DNA and not just DNA from things you would expect to find in your mouth?

'cos it's says so - right there - "....oral filaments in association with the so-called "Morgellons" condition" - how could you possibly question such a strong association??

;)
 

Bill

Senior Member.
Ive done a bit of reading on Morgellons, and I just want to make sure I understand what it is exactly... Is my understanding that its a sensation of bugs/parasites crawling on the body or biting etc accurate? Only reason I ask is because the symptoms seem to cover everything from MS type symptoms to Firbromyalgia(sp?) and 'coke bugs'
They also claim that weird fibers and foreign materials grow out of their skin and they have mysterious sores. My favorite "I keep scratching but my sores won't heal".
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
Ive done a bit of reading on Morgellons, and I just want to make sure I understand what it is exactly... Is my understanding that its a sensation of bugs/parasites crawling on the body or biting etc accurate? Only reason I ask is because the symptoms seem to cover everything from MS type symptoms to Firbromyalgia(sp?) and 'coke bugs'
It is a condition people latch on to for a lack of certainty with any other diagnosis . . . no investigation so far by medical authorities or experts have connected any condition to the diagnosis . . . it is assumed most likely to be a psychosomatic condition . . . patients basically self diagnose. It has been studied by the Mayo Clinic and a larger study by Kaiser Medical System in Northern California . . http://www.cdc.gov/unexplaineddermopathy/qa.html

http://m.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Bay-Area-has-first-major-U-S-study-of-Morgellons-3232765.php
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I think there is no strong correlation between symptoms and cause much like what was seen in Gulf War Syndrome, Agent Orange exposure and originally in Lyme's Disease . . . there was always controversy and suspicion but difficult connections . . . in the case of Morgellons there is even less than in the three mentioned above . . . the issue is: there are people who are hurting and looking for an explanation . . . it is hard to criticize their search for any plausible cause. Though we may think the connection with chemtrails/geoengineering is a stretch . . . they don't share our skepticism . . . especially when we don't think chemtrails exist at all . . .
 
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Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
Not sure, really. They could do PCR themselves with a kit for about $250-300, but you could do it even cheaper than that if you did it the old school way where you don't need an automated thermocycler.
I think there is no strong correlation between symptoms and cause much like what was seen in Gulf War Syndrome, Agent Orange exposure and originally in Lyme's Disease . . . there was always controversy and suspicion but difficult connections . . . in the case of Morgellons there is even less than in the three mentioned above . . .



I can understand the need to find SOME kind of answer for things youre feeling in your body, but coming up with something that wild and outlandish is just.... odd. My Ex-Wife has some serious nerve issues resulting from a not so great back injury about 12 years ago and has many of, if not ALL of the same symptoms. It makes me wonder if these same people may have some form of nerve damage from an injury they may not realize they've sustained or have been able to have diagnosed.
 
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George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I can understand the need to find SOME kind of answer for things your feeling in your body, but coming up with something that wild and outlandish is just.... odd. My Ex-Wife has some serious nerve issues resulting from a not so great back injury about 12 years ago and has many of, if not ALL of the same symptoms. It makes me wonder if these same people may have some form of nerve damage from an injury they may not realize they've sustained or have been able to have diagnosed.
Sometimes not knowing what is harming you or a loved one makes people desperate for an explanation . . . when all else has been eliminated, people turn to the less acceptable and marginal connections . . . it is not that hard to understand . . .
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
Not that Lyme disease is responsible for all cases or the symptoms most classically associated with Morgellon's, I just think that Lyme disease, especially if gone untreated, would exacerbate any paranoia a person already has about creepy feelings under their skin and therefore be more inclined to respond to irritation and pick at sores.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
I can understand both of your points to an extent, my ex and I went through similar emotions out of frustration.. but we knew better than to try to invent some brand new disease that cant be proven as a reason... Even with AIDS and HIV, there was a cause that could be traced, it just wasnt understood because of the way it behaved.. Morgellons doesnt even have -that- much from what I can find.
 

George B

Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member
I can understand both of your points to an extent, my ex and I went through similar emotions out of frustration.. but we knew better than to try to invent some brand new disease that cant be proven as a reason... Even with AIDS and HIV, there was a cause that could be traced, it just wasnt understood because of the way it behaved.. Morgellons doesnt even have -that- much from what I can find.
Not unless you believe chemtrails are real . . . then you can imagine almost any thing you choose to about what they can cause . . .
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Morgellons is an extraordinarily emotive subject. I would exercise both caution and compassion when discussing it.

I would recommend my old blog Morgellons Watch (where I write as "Michael", my given name), the Key Posts listed on the right, or just this one:


There’s a key pararagraph in Brigid Schulte’s excellent Washington Post article^ on Morgellons:

At the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., doctors are beginning to discover how imprecise a diagnosis of “delusions of parasitosis” can be. In the past five years, 175 people have been admitted to the clinic with that diagnosis. After thorough evaluations, however, with doctors taking the time to search for underlying problems, only half of those patients left the clinic with that diagnosis intact. Doctors found a very real cause of the itching in the other half.

It’s key both because it illustrates the false dichotomy of “disease or delusion” that the media and the MRF have forced upon Morgellons, and because it offers a way out of this dead end debate.

Let’s say somebody itches. That’s all, they just itch, but really badly, so it’s a problem. They go to the doctor, and the doctor does a lot of tests to try to find out why they are itching. They do all kinds of tests, and discuss possible environmental causes with the patient, they keep at this for a long time but they can’t find out why the patient is itching.

Is the patient delusional?

No. Clearly not. They are just itching, and they can’t find out why. Now, this obviously would be a horrible situation to be in. Painful itching, and no solution in sight. Horrible. But just because the doctor can’t find a cause for their itching, it does not mean they are delusional.

Now consider the 175 people mentioned above. They were diagnosed with delusions of parasitosis, but after doctors looked for underlying problems, only half of them retained that diagnosis. Consider what this means.

For someone to be diagnosed with delusions of parasitosis (DOP), they have to have an unshakable false belief that they are infested with parasites. Now our hypothetical itching patient does not have this belief, they just itch, so they would not be diagnosed as delusional, since they hold no strange beliefs about their itching. No, to have itching and be diagnosed with DOP, you need TWO things:

  1. Itching
  2. Delusions of Parasitosis
Of course, one cause of itching is scratching (the itch-scratch-itch cycle), and one cause of scratching is DOP. But that’s just one cause. Just because someone has DOP does not mean that their itching is caused by their DOP. There are hundreds of causes of itching. Lots of non-delusional people have itching for which no cause can be found.

DOP, on the other hand, can certainly be caused by itching. It’s called secondary organic DOP.

Now, of the Mayo’s 175 people, 88 of them had a cause found for their itching, presumably this was addressed, and their itching was reduced (or at least explained), and so those people saw conclusively why they were itching in the first place, and were either cured of it, or no longer had false beliefs about it. Were they misdiagnosed? Not if they started out with fixed false beliefs about the cause of their itching. They were not misdiagnosed, they were cured.

Itching is not a delusion. Itching is a physical sensation. Formication is a physical sensation. A delusion is a fixed false belief. Saying someone is delusional does not in any way invalidate their itching. They still itch. It still could be caused by any of hundreds of illnesses, physical conditions or environmental factors. The fact that they hold some odd beliefs about it does not mean they don’t actually itch.

So, no, there is no evidence that Morgellons is a distinct disease, and no, the fibers are nothing to do with anything. But just because someone thinks they have Morgellons does not automatically mean they are crazy. They itch, they suffer from formication, they scratch. In many cases there are probably reasons behind this besides “delusions”.
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Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
I understand where you're coming from Mick, and what you're sayin.. and please dont misunderstand what Im getting at.. Im not at all saying that what these people are going through isnt real.. I just cant find any reason or evidence to suggest that its actually Morgellons.. There are hundreds of other reasons that would and can cause the same symptomology as presented.. nerve damage being one of them, or (as George pointed out) Desert Storm Syndrom etc... Thats all.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I understand where you're coming from Mick, and what you're sayin.. and please dont misunderstand what Im getting at.. Im not at all saying that what these people are going through isnt real.. I just cant find any reason or evidence to suggest that its actually Morgellons.. There are hundreds of other reasons that would and can cause the same symptomology as presented.. nerve damage being one of them, or (as George pointed out) Desert Storm Syndrom etc... Thats all.

I wasn't picking on anything you said, just a general set of observations.

Morgellons is just a list of symptoms. There's nothing at all to suggest it is a distinct disease. However it's very tempting to push off their entire set of symptom as delusional. It's very easy to fall into the false dichotomy of "disease or delusion". Reality is more complex, and varies greatly by individual.

But yes, there are lots of conditions that can create those symptoms. Menopause, for example.
http://morgellonswatch.com/2006/08/25/occams-menopause/

The problem is that the people who strongly believe in Morgellons are strongly opposed to any alternate explanation. Much more strongly than, say, chemtrail believers.
 

Svartbjørn

Senior Member.
I wasn't picking on anything you said, just a general set of observations.

Morgellons is just a list of symptoms. There's nothing at all to suggest it is a distinct disease. However it's very tempting to push off their entire set of symptom as delusional. It's very easy to fall into the false dichotomy of "disease or delusion". Reality is more complex, and varies greatly by individual.

But yes, there are lots of conditions that can create those symptoms. Menopause, for example.
http://morgellonswatch.com/2006/08/25/occams-menopause/

The problem is that the people who strongly believe in Morgellons are strongly opposed to any alternate explanation. Much more strongly than, say, chemtrail believers.


I absolutely agree, and dont worry I didnt take your post as a jab at me in the least.. I took it as general advice and a constructive criticism.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
Not sure, really. They could do PCR themselves with a kit for about $250-300, but you could do it even cheaper than that if you did it the old school way where you don't need an automated thermocycler.
He'd still need to get it sequenced, though. He doesn't even know what he's looking for, so it's not like he can order specific primers. I don't have much confidence that he understands the process well enough to make use of PCR to study an unknown.
 

Dan Wilson

Senior Member.
He'd still need to get it sequenced, though. He doesn't even know what he's looking for, so it's not like he can order specific primers. I don't have much confidence that he understands the process well enough to make use of PCR to study an unknown.

True, you can't do PCR without primers. If he had a pure sample of DNA (which there is no reason to believe that he does) all he would need to do is shotgun sequence it and that would be good enough to demonstrate a new organism. He's actually making more work for himself by wanting to do PCR, which probably wouldn't even work because he doesn't seem to use sterile technique and PCR is a very sensitive procedure.
 
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