Carbon black chemtrails?

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Nobody uses black carbon to cloud seed. There's talk about it in regard to geoengineering though. The latests research shows it's not really a viable option.

http://pubs.giss.nasa.gov/abs/kr03000u.html

These guys are confusing cloud seeding with geoengineering.

The "black trails" people talk about are usually just trails that are in shadow.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
That dutchsinse is such a liar. People don't show black trails coming from airplanes. They have been pointig at white trails since the first day of the chemtrails hoax fifteen years ago. I did listen while cooking. He says that satellite pictures of Florida are perfectly clear, but that they are hiding something from radar?
If the air is clear you can get perfect satellite pictures, what is being hidden? He claims that "a million tons" of iron were dumped in the ocean off Canada, but it was 100 tons. He said Russ George got arrested, he didn't. He said chaff was a gel. It isn't.

There was lots more bunk. Dutchsinse isn't very good live. He just isn't a good enough liar to manage it.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
At 6:50 carbon black ? says they are not chemtrails only Cloud seeding ?
So, are you really into this radar hoax stuff, you trust this guy?

http://treasurecoastskywatch.blogspot.com/2011/09/dutchsinse-banned-from-you-tube-because.html

http://treasurecoastskywatch.blogsp...ticles-rss-share-email-bookmark.html#comments

Joe, have you ever seen a chaff release on radar?
Does it make a continuous line emanating from a plane moving 300+ mph like a contrail. Or does it just drift off with the wind?

One last question, you haven't given dutchsinse any money, have you?
 

Joe

Senior Member
So, are you really into this radar hoax stuff, you trust this guy?

http://treasurecoastskywatch.blogspot.com/2011/09/dutchsinse-banned-from-you-tube-because.html

http://treasurecoastskywatch.blogsp...ticles-rss-share-email-bookmark.html#comments

Joe, have you ever seen a chaff release on radar?
Does it make a continuous line emanating from a plane moving 300+ mph like a contrail. Or does it just drift off with the wind?

One last question, you haven't given dutchsinse any money, have you?
No I havent, but I did give 20 bucks to him once becuase his bike ride for childrens cancer . http://stlouis.pedalthecause.org/splash2013/index.html. No Im no longer sure he had that radar thing right , But not knowing anything about radar how does one prove him wrong . Its kinda like listening to Coast to Coast . Can be entertaining his theory . Like a good sci -fi . Its You Tube Jay what can you expect . I see the dark trails alot and they are just shadows [h=1]. Parallel Shadow[/h] .Going back a few years on my site Jay ?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member

Joe

Senior Member
Two years is but an instant when you get to be my age.....

Just wondering how deeply held this is for you. I've been watching the radar stuff as long as chemtrails.

This guy was waaaaaay ahead of dutchnonsense:
http://radaranomalies.com/YEAR1998.htm

A friend of mine did a debunking of that stuff sooooo many years ago:
http://web.archive.org/web/20120301142336/http://www.letxa.com/nexradintro.php
Geoengineering By Committee? Time To Get Totalitarian http://www.science20.com/news_articles/geoengineering_committee_time_get_totalitarian-104431 This is what bothers me Jay Not Dutch .
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Geoengineering By Committee? Time To Get Totalitarian http://www.science20.com/news_articles/geoengineering_committee_time_get_totalitarian-104431 This is what bothers me Jay Not Dutch .
You should try reading the actual article - which has a somewhat different content to the sensationalist headline that no doubt attracts many.
 

Joe

Senior Member
You should try reading the actual article - which has a somewhat different content to the sensationalist headline that no doubt attracts many.
I did read it "Social authoritarianism may be the way to go, according to modeling work from Carnegie's Katharine Ricke and Ken Caldeira and Juan Moreno-Cruz from the Georgia Institute of Technology. Their game-theoretic computer model found that a suitably powerful coalition would have incentive to exclude other countries from participating in the decision-making process about geo-engineering Earth.
 

scombrid

Senior Member
Joe, have you ever seen a chaff release on radar?
Dutch recorded several the other day that were deployed by operations of Key West Navy Base even though he claims to not know what he was viewing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmKtwG0Jr-A

I mentioned that video in this thread:

https://www.metabunk.org/posts/27991

Chaffs deployments fairly commonly show up on the Tampa and Key West radars with McDill and Key West military installations being responsible. The national weather service has a few posts about the chaff screwing up their radar estimated rainfall totals since the automated radar doesn't do a good job of differentiating between chaff and precip.

Here's an old article about chaff and weather radar. The signature dutch has in his latest video is not a new or unexplained feature.

http://www.lakeeriewx.com/CaseStudies/ChaffOnRadar/ChaffOnRadar.html

Chaff deployments are neat to watch if there is wind sheer as they disperse and change direction as they fall.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-01-11/news/fl-fake-rain-20130110_1_chaff-fighter-jet-navy-jets
 
Last edited by a moderator:

scombrid

Senior Member
NWS has been tracking chaff for awhile.

http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/pdf/10.1175/1520-0469(1960)017<0507:TAOWDB>2.0.CO;2

And to be on topic about black carbon chemtrails, I've never seen a dark trail that wasn't either a trail in shadow or the shadow of a trail. I even photographed the trail shadow that the 737 that I was riding on from Chicago to Florida was casting on the cloud deck below us. I think I uploaded on of those photos in a thread here.
 
U

Unregistered

Guest
I can tell you that my boyfriend, who is a touring musician, was flying and absolutely saw the planes spraying black chemtrails, definitely NOT shadows. And this was a few years ago.
 

MikeC

Closed Account
There certainly can be black trails from aircraft - an the older they are the more likely it is to occur -

0541868.jpg

-this is a takeoff uxsing water injection as an extreme example of what used to happen. Modern a/c do not use water injection and do not make trails like this.

nonetheless some still leave slight black trails - but htey are mostly C-130 and Convair CV-580 turboprops AFAIK, the engines of which are quite notorious for doing so -

C-130-USA-THAI-SMOKE-S.jpg

I am afraid I would not take the word of a frequent traveller as evidence for anything to do with "chemtrails" without some coroborating evidence - of which there is none.
 

Billzilla

Active Member
I've also seen contrails that you would swear are black. But then as we overtook the aeroplane in front of us and the angle of the light changed, they became white.
 

GregMc

Senior Member
I can tell you that my boyfriend, who is a touring musician, was flying and absolutely saw the planes spraying black chemtrails, definitely NOT shadows. And this was a few years ago.

Hi unregistered.
I note your boyfriend is a musical artist and not a visual artist with experience in visual phenomena and common perceptual illusions.
Whether an object looks light or dark often depends on factors OTHER than whether it is actually light or dark.

Perhaps you might like to test his powers of observation with the following:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Grey_square_optical_illusion.PNG

The squares labelled "A" and "B" are EXACTLY the same shade of grey.
That is obvious isn't it?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Optical_illusion_greysquares.gif
http://www.moillusions.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Bf8xi.jpg



In other words the perception of the appearance of the trails is dependant on a number of factors including your boyfriend's ability to perceive colours and shades against different backgrounds. The appearance can vary greatly with different light intensities, and the angle of front light, back light , side light , top light or even under-lighting. Water-condensation is both semitransparent and reflects, scatters and refracts ambient light.
A trail that is measurably "white" may look "black" depending on the viewing conditions.
So your comments would be far more helpful if we actually saw in what conditions the trails were observed.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
So your comments would be far more helpful if we actually saw in what conditions the trails were observed.
That's the problem with so many of these reports. Even though phone cameras are ubiquitous and billions have one when they go out, every "black" trail they show us is a shadow.
 

ssfor27

Active Member
No I havent, but I did give 20 bucks to him once becuase his bike ride for childrens cancer . http://stlouis.pedalthecause.org/splash2013/index.html. No Im no longer sure he had that radar thing right , But not knowing anything about radar how does one prove him wrong . Its kinda like listening to Coast to Coast . Can be entertaining his theory . Like a good sci -fi . Its You Tube Jay what can you expect . I see the dark trails alot and they are just shadows . Parallel Shadow

.Going back a few years on my site Jay ?
You can be absolutely sure he does not have that "radar thing" right. His (Dutchsinse) understanding of weather radar is uneducated and confused and there is very little, if anything, he has down correctly. I can say that with 100 percent absolute certainty. To revisit my previous posts, I work for the weather service as an electronics tech and part of that scope of duties is maintenance and repair of the WSR-88D radar.

BTW - for anyone curious as to how the NWS operates, most weather service offices do conduct open houses once a year and sometimes private tours upon request. I have given tours of the ground based portion of a WSR-88D to college students. Find your local office and give them a call. Every office has a web page with a contact number listed.
 

Joe

Senior Member
You can be absolutely sure he does not have that "radar thing" right. His (Dutchsinse) understanding of weather radar is uneducated and confused and there is very little, if anything, he has down correctly. I can say that with 100 percent absolute certainty. To revisit my previous posts, I work for the weather service as an electronics tech and part of that scope of duties is maintenance and repair of the WSR-88D radar.

BTW - for anyone curious as to how the NWS operates, most weather service offices do conduct open houses once a year and sometimes private tours upon request. I have given tours of the ground based portion of a WSR-88D to college students. Find your local office and give them a call. Every office has a web page with a contact number listed.
Well here is a update on HAARP RINGS where he calls out the skeptics at Metabunk ,
 

ssfor27

Active Member
Well here is a update where he calls out the skeptics at Metabunk ,
What a total and complete fraud. I find it interesting that he mentions the transmitter klystron this time. I have never heard him use that word before and I wonder if he has been visiting this site? Using "klystron" makes him sound even more believable to his flock of unquestioning followers. BTW Dutch, it's Klystron "tube" not tubes and 750 KW is MAXIMUM power, of which is never completely utilized in order to prolong the life of the Klystron.

And his obsession with the 12.4 MHZ frequency...where on Earth does he get that from? Hey Dutch - it's 2.7-3.0 GIGAHERTZ for WSR-88D weather radar, with each site being tuned to a single, site specific frequency within that range - ALL THE TIME - it does not change. And what is this "pulse mode" he speaks of because that must be one I missed at the training center and in 6 years of working weather radar. Maybe tomorrow I will take a walk out to the radar and see if I can find the "pulse mode" switch.

Further - Radar pulses are NOT visible -only the returned energy. If the receiver was turned on at exactly the same moment as the transmitter, it would destroy the receiver.

So SICK AND TIRED of this clown, his ridiculously bad theories, and his continual accusations that the agency I work for is engaged in malicious activities. He's actually the brunt of a lot of jokes around the weather service but sadly it's more serious than that. If he keeps this up, one of these days someone is going to feel the need to take action and as I have said before, that's scares the crap out of me because weather offices are not exactly well protected facilities.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
Well here is a update on HAARP RINGS where he calls out the skeptics at Metabunk ,
Is this guy available for a free and open debate where he isn't able to delete and/or modify what commenters say?
If not, he isn't "calling anyone out".

Essentially, he is saying that just because some Ferraris can do 200 mph, a Yugo can do the same.

HAARP is doing what it is designed to do, heat a small part of the ionosphere.

Weather radars don't heat the atmosphere, or make "HAARP" rings.

None of what he shows in that video validates any of what he has been claiming to see on weather radars.

The only thing of significance here is that he is being affected by our efforts, he is hurting badly and has been forced to make a pitiful response.

At least John Massaria had the guts to come face us here. This one is putting thisout simply to feed the folks that he has in tow already, a ploy to save face and bolster the faithful. Sad, really.
 

Joe

Senior Member
Is this guy available for a free and open debate where he isn't able to delete and/or modify what commenters say?
If not, he isn't "calling anyone out".

Essentially, he is saying that just because some Ferraris can do 200 mph, a Yugo can do the same.

HAARP is doing what it is designed to do, heat a small part of the ionosphere.

Weather radars don't heat the atmosphere, or make "HAARP" rings.

None of what he shows in that video validates any of what he has been claiming to see on weather radars.

The only thing of significance here is that he is being affected by our efforts, he is hurting badly and has been forced to make a pitiful response.

At least John Massaria had the guts to come face us here. This one is putting thisout simply to feed the folks that he has in tow already, a ploy to save face and bolster the faithful. Sad, really.
A yugo Can do 200 miles an hour Jay . Off A cliff :) You should ask him to join Metabunk Jay . Hey it says Im a Senior member here now When do i get My Government check ? Or is that because Im over 50 ?
 

solrey

Senior Member
I still can't figure out if he's perpetrating a purposeful hoax or if he really is that scientifically illiterate. The only thing new about the experiment is they produced increased electron densities for a longer period of time and at a different harmonic frequency than was attempted in prior experiments. There have been numerous similar experiments in both the lower and upper layers of the ionosphere. This new experiment changes nothing about what debunkers have been saying.

From his blog post:

To top it off, with this Navy experiment — the plasma RING/SPHERE was observed on RADAR from Poker Flats, AK.. refuting even more skeptics who said HAARP cannot be seen on RADAR.
I don't recall anyone saying that the effects of ionospheric heaters could not be detected by radar operating within the UHF band. That's the point, to skip radio transmissions in the HF band off the ionosphere. Anyone who understands the research involved with ionospheric heaters knows that radar is often used to diagnose the effects of HF transmissions on the ionosphere.

In his blog post he claims that WSR-88D has two modes, a "pulse mode" and a normal mode.

Ironic indeed that the frequency they used from HAARP matches the capability of NEXRAD RADAR.. as they are creating this plasma in the atmosphere using 0-4MHz.. (nexrad pulses between 0 to 12.4MHz putting the HAARP frequency and RADAR frequency on overlapping spectrums)

Furthermore, separately, we found RADAR is used to generate plasma from a place called SPEAR (in Norway) , they are using RADAR as a ‘heater’ in the same GHz spectrum that NEXRAD RADAR normally operates on when not in pulse mode (2.7GHz to 3.0GHz). Proving RADAR can , and is currently being used to induce effects in the atmosphere — not just observe it.
He seems to think you can just change the frequency band of WSR-88D transmissions like turning a dial on a radio. NO you cannot do that with ANY transmitter. And where does he come up with this 0 to 12.4 MHz crap? Something he mis-read on the back of a cereal box?

The SPEAR project utilizes a number of instruments, including radar, that detect the effects of the HF transmitter. The radar itself does not affect the ionosphere. The EISCAT and SuperDARN radars have OBSERVED the effects of SPEARS dipole array HF transmissions on the ionosphere. The SuperDARN radars operate in the HF band and EISCAT in the UHF band, not within the WSR-88D frequency range of 2.7 - 3.0 GHz as dutch claims. What a complete and total fraud this guy is. Absolutely amazing.

You sure you want to debate the more tech savvy debunkers dutch? If so, bring it on.

Edit:

About his "pulse mode". Transmitting in bursts, or pulses, is an inherent aspect of how radar functions. To call any mode "pulse mode" would just be redundant. Radar in general and especially doppler radar used for weather radar works by sending a short burst or pulse then switching to the receiver and waiting to receive return signals for a set amount of time, then another short burst is transmitted then back to receiving, wash-rinse-repeat. The timeframes are measured in something like milliseconds, being that radio waves travel at the speed of light and all. But his unquestioning flock oohs and aahhhhs whenever they find out that radar does indeed transmit in pulses... like a few thousand bursts per second.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member
I still can't figure out if he's perpetrating a purposeful hoax or if he really is that scientifically illiterate.

You sure you want to debate the more tech savvy debunkers dutch? If so, bring it on....
Hope you don't mind me relaying your challenge, I'd like to see that:

dutchsinse.JPG
 

Joe

Senior Member
Top Gear dropped a Beetle from a copter over Sth Africa IIRC - the terminal speed was something like 120mph.

Found it -

​ - 125mph

Perhaps it's a bit mroe aerodynamic than a Yugo, what with those curves??
Guess Jay had it right then about 100 MPH for the Yugo ?
 

ssfor27

Active Member
I still can't figure out if he's perpetrating a purposeful hoax or if he really is that scientifically illiterate. The only thing new about the experiment is they produced increased electron densities for a longer period of time and at a different harmonic frequency than was attempted in prior experiments. There have been numerous similar experiments in both the lower and upper layers of the ionosphere. This new experiment changes nothing about what debunkers have been saying.

From his blog post:



I don't recall anyone saying that the effects of ionospheric heaters could not be detected by radar operating within the UHF band. That's the point, to skip radio transmissions in the HF band off the ionosphere. Anyone who understands the research involved with ionospheric heaters knows that radar is often used to diagnose the effects of HF transmissions on the ionosphere.

In his blog post he claims that WSR-88D has two modes, a "pulse mode" and a normal mode.



He seems to think you can just change the frequency band of WSR-88D transmissions like turning a dial on a radio. NO you cannot do that with ANY transmitter. And where does he come up with this 0 to 12.4 MHz crap? Something he mis-read on the back of a cereal box?

The SPEAR project utilizes a number of instruments, including radar, that detect the effects of the HF transmitter. The radar itself does not affect the ionosphere. The EISCAT and SuperDARN radars have OBSERVED the effects of SPEARS dipole array HF transmissions on the ionosphere. The SuperDARN radars operate in the HF band and EISCAT in the UHF band, not within the WSR-88D frequency range of 2.7 - 3.0 GHz as dutch claims. What a complete and total fraud this guy is. Absolutely amazing.

You sure you want to debate the more tech savvy debunkers dutch? If so, bring it on.

Edit:

About his "pulse mode". Transmitting in bursts, or pulses, is an inherent aspect of how radar functions. To call any mode "pulse mode" would just be redundant. Radar in general and especially doppler radar used for weather radar works by sending a short burst or pulse then switching to the receiver and waiting to receive return signals for a set amount of time, then another short burst is transmitted then back to receiving, wash-rinse-repeat. The timeframes are measured in something like milliseconds, being that radio waves travel at the speed of light and all. But his unquestioning flock oohs and aahhhhs whenever they find out that radar does indeed transmit in pulses... like a few thousand bursts per second.

Solrey - I found it - as I suspected, he is quoting some alleged technical documentation regarding the output pulse spectrum - I dug deep into his "all you wanna know about HAARP" blog and found this - “Short pulse output spectrum: -40 dB BW is 12.4 MHz, (-80 dB at +/- 62 MHz), -80 dB at +/- 19.6 MHz for congested areas(congested areas require transmitter output bandpass filter)” All that is referring to is a 12.4 MHZ bandwidth as measured at -40dB. However, our official WSR-88D manuals allow for a half bandwidth of 7.26 MHZ at -40 dB so I am not even sure what it is he is linked to.

Clearly this is where he gets the 12.4 MHZ from. It's roughly halfway down on this page - http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/201...nt-to-prove-it-to-a-non-believer-here-you-go/

And yes, he does seem to think you can just spin a dial on some tuner and change the frequency of a weather radar, again showing absolutely no comprehension of how a weather radar works. But hey, when you can say "it's showing as a quick flash through the high RF spectrum" (huh?).....man, that just sounds so awesome to someone who has no clue either.
 

solrey

Senior Member
Solrey - I found it - as I suspected, he is quoting some alleged technical documentation regarding the output pulse spectrum - I dug deep into his "all you wanna know about HAARP" blog and found this - “Short pulse output spectrum: -40 dB BW is 12.4 MHz, (-80 dB at +/- 62 MHz), -80 dB at +/- 19.6 MHz for congested areas(congested areas require transmitter output bandpass filter)” All that is referring to is a 12.4 MHZ bandwidth as measured at -40dB. However, our official WSR-88D manuals allow for a half bandwidth of 7.26 MHZ at -40 dB so I am not even sure what it is he is linked to.

Clearly this is where he gets the 12.4 MHZ from. It's roughly halfway down on this page - http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/2012...r-here-you-go/

And yes, he does seem to think you can just spin a dial on some tuner and change the frequency of a weather radar, again showing absolutely no comprehension of how a weather radar works. But hey, when you can say "it's showing as a quick flash through the high RF spectrum" (huh?).....man, that just sounds so awesome to someone who has no clue either.
I figured it had something to do with bandwidth. I remember when he started with that nonsense about "flash through the high RF spectrum". If I recall correctly, I'm pretty sure he came up with that when he first noticed RF at the top of the legend on one of the velocity maps. RF with its purple color must be even higher energy than that scary red color.

For those who don't know, RF stands for Range Folding. Range folding happens when a return signal from the previous pulse is received after the next pulse is transmitted, thus distance downrange cannot be measured accurately.


Treasurecoastskywatch, dutch asked me to debate him a few days ago so he must be OK with a little mud slinging, considering he does plenty of that himself.
 

cloudspotter

Senior Member
Solrey - I found it - as I suspected, he is quoting some alleged technical documentation regarding the output pulse spectrum - I dug deep into his "all you wanna know about HAARP" blog and found this - “Short pulse output spectrum: -40 dB BW is 12.4 MHz, (-80 dB at +/- 62 MHz), -80 dB at +/- 19.6 MHz for congested areas(congested areas require transmitter output bandpass filter)” All that is referring to is a 12.4 MHZ bandwidth as measured at -40dB. However, our official WSR-88D manuals allow for a half bandwidth of 7.26 MHZ at -40 dB so I am not even sure what it is he is linked to.

Clearly this is where he gets the 12.4 MHZ from. It's roughly halfway down on this page - http://sincedutch.wordpress.com/201...nt-to-prove-it-to-a-non-believer-here-you-go/

And yes, he does seem to think you can just spin a dial on some tuner and change the frequency of a weather radar, again showing absolutely no comprehension of how a weather radar works. But hey, when you can say "it's showing as a quick flash through the high RF spectrum" (huh?).....man, that just sounds so awesome to someone who has no clue either.

I had an idea a little while back to debunk the HAARP cloud formations - usually undulatus. Using a kmz satellite image in Google Earth and marking a set distance on an area of suitable cloud you could work out wavelength, I gave it a shot but I wasn't 100% sure on the calculations. Of course there's always the danger that it will just confirm their theories. :D
 
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