Cannabis Cures Cancer.... An experiment in public self condemnation...

lotek

Active Member
fuuuu.JPG

So i Have run up on this countless times on facebook and the internet and am willing to be many of you have as well. the following is an off the cuff post i made in a rushed manner, just to have something to get this thread going. Ill come back to it a little more professionally later today.

http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/marijuana-cancer-what-facts-smoke/
http://www.skepticnorth.com/2010/01/cannabis-cures-cancer/
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk...cure-for-brain-cancer-headline-is-misleading/


Pharma is not hiding anything, they wont loose money from cannabis, they would make millions, because no matter what you wish to think, rubbing hash oil on your skin or smoking joints isnt going to treat anything but nausea and pain. there is tons of money to be made in researching treatment vectors, doseing, ROA, targeting, specialized derivatives, etc. there is NO conspiracy here, outside of your own heads that is.


There is no lack of research by big pharma, they are dumping tons of money into it.


all studies are with chemical derivatives, synthetically altered compounds, or the original compounds, delivered to cultured cells in a dish via highly specialized technologies and at high levels outside the body. So the "natural" tag people like to attach to this doesnt count. in noway will the actual cure, if any ever comes of this, be natural in anyway. it will look just like any other cancer treatment.


So far as i have ever been able to find, no study has shown an effect in a real person. If you have read a website that said So and So was cured, they are lying, or most likely, they just went into remission and have blindly credited it to the cannabis.


Do Not demonize Chemotherapy. Chemo isnt even a single item. it is a whole class of drugs. Drugs which have saved the lives of MILLIONS of people. Dont forget that. Yes it tends to make you sick, and you can die from it, but you are dying anyway so..


In regards to medical cannabis, if you think there is anything such as a cure of any kind of sickness, mental or physical, outside of symptom mitigation, you have been advertised to and indoctrinated by people with product to sell.


One cannot even "Cure Cancer" with a single product, as cancer is a word describing thousands of things, each needing its own treatment, each with totally unique conditions and requirements.


I fully support the use of cannabinoids in symptom mitigation, in case my postings here lead you to think otherwise. But i feel it is myths and half baked ideas such as these which are perpetuated by the medical cannabis community and the potheads around it which do FAR more damage to any effort of getting positive work or legislation done than they realize. An experiment in self condemnation.




I post the following because someone ALWAYS says it:
No, you cannot say prove it doesnt cure cancer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Unfortunately I have some friends that read the Natural News and are really taken in by this stuff and the Big Pharma conspiracy. I saw a post claiming TPTB are repressing research on cannabis and within minutes I had produced a shedload of papers. However these claims are dangerous as some people buy into it and think eating weed is going to cure people.

The Big Pharma conspiracy is an annoyance of mine as we have socialised health care and essentially the government negotiates over prices. As for witholding the cure for cancer it seems that most people don't realise the bulk.of research is done by charities or academia and hospitals.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
What gets me is that folks don't stop and think that folks in 'big pharma' get cancer and they have children and parents and friends ALL get and die from cancer. If pot or onions or something else could cure them, wouldn't they make sure that they used them?
 

lotek

Active Member
They have been spoonfed the idea that they will just be able to eat hash oil and be cured, when in reality pharma will have plenty of ways to make millions off of any medical treatment to come of this. in no way will the treatment be natural or outside of the medical system or free of the grasp of companies. it will need to be researched, controlled, insured, delivered to the cells, specialized, synthetically altered, etc. all things you cant do in your basement pot garden.

I also take issue with the idea that blasting liters of butane thru a few lbs of plant mater, then letting it partially boil off is in anyway natural or less 'creepy' than what pharma does... it is a super critical extraction using a toxic(gasp!) solvent... I can even attest that many producers of hash oil use not technical or reagent butane, but butane meant for combustion which is not exactly pure, or food safe in ever case. then they just let this boil off into the air.. like that is some natural eco friendly blessing.. i am aware of super critical co2 and nitrogen alternatives, but they are rarely used.

not all producers use bad technique, but many do.

yes, marinol and sativex are a huge huge pointless joke. but that is a totally unrelated issue to this. it cannot be used to warrant permanent suspicion.
 

F4Jock

Senior Member.
There have been many other such claims. Unfortunately all have proven false. When I get cancer, and given my genetics my odds are pretty good, hell, I'll probably be willing to try anything, but conventional drugs and treatments will be first on the hit parade.

Hope springeth eternal but one has to wonder which, of many possible agendas, the pro-canabis nation is promoting here.

Holy Cow!! Did I just start a counter-conspiracy?
 

lotek

Active Member
any pdfs, link, or studies you may have kickin around would be welcomes as well. this comes up so often for me id like to be able to reference back here.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Scientific American posts an article on new treatments for MS and someone posts this.

 

lotek

Active Member
a problem i am having with this debate is that many sources are indeed the same sources the believers are using, just minus the journalist middle man and the misrepresentation of science. leaving me only to try to explain all of the scientific method... or left posting a link to the definition of cure and treatment.

on a side note, the image i posted to start this thread, that thread resulted in me being called a big nosed jew furthering the spread of the new world order..... ad hominem abound..
 

JeffreyNotGeoffrey

Active Member
I love my secondary THC treatments, but they are secondary. It usually helps with appetite and pain but not enough to be a stand alone treatment. I also think pot is pushed to the side by other forces. Big Pharma would find a way to commercialize it. I think the resistance comes more from the puritanical elements in society (along with mothers screaming for us to think of the children) and possibly the alcohol/tobacco lobby. Other than that I think pot will be legal in 20ish years.

And while I have read THC helps prevent or limit cancer I never heard a sane someone claim it cures cancer. Besides I have a feeling you would have to chain smoke blunts until you rendered yourself stupid to achieve that effect. Too expensive and bad for the lungs.
 

lotek

Active Member
more like you would have to chemically modify the cannabinoids to specifically interact with the mutated cancer proteins then encapsulate this non polar compound inside a proprietary cyclodextrin complex(awesome things if you havent read about them btw) then wrap that up in a patent-able time release or chemically activated capsule and deliver it directly to the tumor via implantation or similar medical procedure like placement of radiation pellets.

like i said, many, many places for pharma to make their cash which is why the conspiracy bit always struck me as short sighted.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
a problem i am having with this debate is that many sources are indeed the same sources the believers are using, just minus the journalist middle man and the misrepresentation of science. leaving me only to try to explain all of the scientific method... or left posting a link to the definition of cure and treatment.

on a side note, the image i posted to start this thread, that thread resulted in me being called a big nosed jew furthering the spread of the new world order..... ad hominem abound..
Besides misinterpreting or misrepresenting cure and treatment, people assume cure will always cost less than treatment. They want to blame big pharma for pushing pills but expect the cure they are holding back to be one.

Get some sour cream and onion chips with some dip, man, some beef jerky, some peanut butter. Get some Häagen-Dazs ice cream bars, a whole lot, make sure chocolate, gotta have chocolate, man. Some popcorn, red popcorn, graham crackers, graham crackers with marshmallows, the little marshmallows and little chocolate bars and we can make s'mores, man. Also, celery, grape jelly, Cap'n Crunch with the little Crunch berries, pizzas. We need two big pizzas, man, everything on 'em, with water, whole lotta water, and Funyons.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
I have friends in medieval research that years ago talked about books that 'trees had died in vain' for. (Mostly reprints of late 1800s and early 1900s books--written through the lense of the Victorians and their biases). Today it is electrons that are wasted in vain.
 

Grieves

Senior Member
For the most part I agree with you. The one place I'd differ is here:
Pharma is not hiding anything, they wont loose money from cannabis, they would make millions, because no matter what you wish to think, rubbing hash oil on your skin or smoking joints isnt going to treat anything but nausea and pain. there is tons of money to be made in researching treatment vectors, doseing, ROA, targeting, specialized derivatives, etc. there is NO conspiracy here, outside of your own heads that is.
There's actually a fair number of obstacles in the path of Pharma-corps making the sorts of profits they're used too where cannabis is concerned. That the stuff is illegal helps immensely, as otherwise a profit would be entirely impossible given the relative ease with which it's grown, but any attempts by pharma-corps to commercialize cannabis would put them in direct competition with the private market, which would easily adjust to crush them, especially given that the private market is state-sponsored to an extent. As much influence as big pharma might have on policy, too many jobs and fortunes rely on the illegal trafficking of cannabis, the 'prison industrial complex' as some like to call it taking precedent. Though there's a potential market for processed derivatives, they'd still have difficulty with pricing it in a way that would produce an acceptable profit and still lure users away from private/illegal purchases of the plant itself. That's the market Big-Pharma would be trying to tackle with commercialized cannabis products after all, not curious arthritic grandma and your diabetic aunt, but the vast percentage of the population who use cannabis for recreation already.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
What gets me is that folks don't stop and think that folks in 'big pharma' get cancer and they have children and parents and friends ALL get and die from cancer. If pot or onions or something else could cure them, wouldn't they make sure that they used them?
Yep and a lot of them will turn to alternative medicine.

I have had it straight from their mouths on a number of occasions how they would not be subjected to the toxic cancer causing radiation and chemotherapy poisons.

Hell, the medical profession have the lowest uptake on vaccinations with many refusing to have them and it became so embarrassing that they tried to force them to have the vaccinations.

Hoxsey was visited by the exact same people who persecuted him for years, to cure them or family members. Natural remedies do not cure all cancers but they have a higher success rate than pharma IMO, although that is purely anecdotal evidence. But what is proven is the appalling success rates by conventional means.

Add to that, many people have cancer which is not life threatening and will likely wind up dying of something totally unrelated.

This highlights latent prostrate cancers but I have seen evidence it is also applicable to other cancers, (although this article claims it is unique to latent prostate cancer.

http://www.prostateoncology.com/education/fundamentals_of_treatment/undiagnosed

http://easyhealthoptions.com/altern...ostate-cancer-what-are-you-going-do-about-it/

Now imagine they had been diagnosed and embarked on an aggressive cancer therapy. There is a high chance that it could do far more harm than good because the toxins used are so damaging and the radiation is in itself cancer inducing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cancer


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/30/breast-cancer-screenings-damaging-women

 

SR1419

Senior Member.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/4865614/Patients-at-risk-as-NHS-staff-refuse-flu-jabs.html

There are other reports out there but I know just how good you are at researching, I am sure you will come up with plenty more if you feel like it. :)
Oxy...come on...an article about hospital workers not getting the flu shot cannot be extrapolated into "the medical profession have the lowest uptake on vaccinations".

Thats bunk.

Lots of people- including me- do not get the flu shot but still get vaccines for MMR, TDAP, Hep etc...
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
That was for the 08-09 season.

The why is interesting.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Oxy...come on...an article about hospital workers not getting the flu shot cannot be extrapolated into "the medical profession have the lowest uptake on vaccinations".

Thats bunk.

Lots of people- including me- do not get the flu shot but still get vaccines for MMR, TDAP, Hep etc...
Lol...

http://eurosurveillance.org/images/dynamic/EE/V15N06/art19486.pdf

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/whooping-cough-vaccination
Nice profit for pharma to theoritically save 14 deaths

http://www.nursingtimes.net/whats-new-in-nursing/nurses-shun-swine-flu-jab/5015460.article

http://www.fftimes.com/node/216918




You may poo poo the swine flu shot shun but the fact is it was nearly mandatory and governments squandered billions on it when hardly anyone wanted it despite the crazed scare tactics. The pharma companies had it written in that they would not be held accountable for any adverse reactions and rushed it out to make a quick profit without proper tests.

Many people have suffered from it... likewise with the cancer vaccines

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...ill-effects-from-cervical-cancer-vaccine.html

And it is totally useless apart from profiteering by pharma.

You want to talk about pseudo science, I suggest you look at pharma.
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
That was for the 08-09 season.

The why is interesting.
No Cairenn, we are talking about the deadly H1N1 and swine flu PANDEMICS here... but notwithstanding that, flu is very dangerous and kills large amounts of people every year... not like the half dozen or so in the PANDEMIC BUNK BUNK and more BUNK.
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
Lol...

http://eurosurveillance.org/images/dynamic/EE/V15N06/art19486.pdf

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/whooping-cough-vaccination
Nice profit for pharma to theoritically save 14 deaths

Laughing out loud indeed....somehow a survey of 441 Greek health care workers regarding a single flu vaccine and in particular a specific side effect is somehow extrapolated into ridiculously broad generalization of ""the medical profession have the lowest uptake on vaccinations"

never mind that the respondents of the survey also said this:

 

qed

Senior Member
Please can we return to this discussion.

I have long argued (without any research on my part:oops:) that cannabis does not cure cancer. Rather cannabis provides a quality of life to cancer sufferers. My view appears consistent with what I read in this thread and https://www.metabunk.org/threads/debunked-the-harmful-effects-of-marijuana-dr-sanjay-gupta.2173/


Recently I was informed that I am mistaken (and I hate being wrong).

When asked "does cannabis cure cancer", Google responds first with 20 Medical Studies That Prove Cannabis Can Cure Cancer

Following a few of the links yields:


British Journal of Cancer

National Cancer Institute

Oncogene

pubmed.gov

  • Is evidence growing that cannabis is effective in the treatment of cancer (as opposed to just relieving the symptoms)?
 
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Jason

Senior Member
Is evidence growing that cannabis is effective in the treatment of cancer (as opposed to just relieving the symptoms)?
Quick comment; When discussing this I think its also important to point out that Cannibas in the form of THC medication or vapor is what they are discussing in these studies. Not cannibas in the from of "smoking it", which could be toxic and potentially cause respiratory issues...
 

Jason

Senior Member
In this article they discuss 20 case studies about Cannibus and how it can cure cancer. Each of the studies have been published in very reputable Journals like the British Journal of Cancer, or The Journal of Neuroscience to name a few; Here is the site; http://www.collective-evolution.com...-studies-that-prove-cannabis-can-cure-cancer/
 

qed

Senior Member
I should be clear. I am not asking if cannabis cures cancer, just whether or not there is growing medical evidence that cannabis (in some kind of medical form) can inhibit cancer (as is the case with chemotherapy).

A positive answer would be at odds with what I (and many on this forum) believed the case to be.
 

qed

Senior Member
Some results from my search of Google Scholar.

The Journal of Cancer Research

The Journal of Clinical Investigation

The Journal of Pharmacology

There are many others.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
I should be clear. I am not asking if cannabis cures cancer, just whether or not there is growing medical evidence that cannabis (in some kind of medical form) can inhibit cancer (as is the case with chemotherapy).

A positive answer would be at odds with what I (and many on this forum) believed the case to be.
I don't think anyone denies the research in cancer, it is the meme that is presented, mainly ones like "taking cannabis oil cures cancer". At the moment present research looks interesting but making that into a viable treatment may never happen. The OP has a link to a good resource here
http://scienceblog.cancerresearchuk...ids-and-cancer-the-evidence-so-far/#can-treat
 

Jason

Senior Member
I should be clear. I am not asking if cannabis cures cancer, just whether or not there is growing medical evidence that cannabis (in some kind of medical form) can inhibit cancer (as is the case with chemotherapy).

A positive answer would be at odds with what I (and many on this forum) believed the case to be.
So the 20 case studies I listed above are at "odds" with your opinion.

Edit: Now I understand, you want to know if there is growing consensus in the medical field if cannibas inhibits the growth of cancer cells or kills cancer cells altogether. Rather than having a discussion about evidence itself or case studies. I think it will be hard to seperate the two.
 
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jaydeehess

Senior Member.
My nice died as I and several relatives sat in the hospice room waiting for the inevitable. She had gone through chemo twice but the cancer still took her. She had always been a user of cannabis and had upped that usage greatly due to the belief of her friends that it could do her benefit. The family did not object as it was time to try anything.
I all but knew it was not going to help in any way and it didn't.

Cannabinoids do not cure cancer.

ETA: I survived colon cancer after surgery, chemo and radiation(2001)
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
My nice died as I and several relatives sat in the hospice room waiting for the inevitable. She had gone through chemo twice but the cancer still took her. She had always been a user of cannabis and had upped that usage greatly due to the belief of her friends that it could do her benefit. The family did not object as it was time to try anything.
I all but knew it was not going to help in any way and it didn't.

Cannabinoids do not cure cancer.

ETA: I survived colon cancer after surgery, chemo and radiation(2001)
I have liked this post but not because I like it if you know what I mean. I am sorry for your loss and thanks for sharing. On a plus side, well done for staying alive :)
 

Jason

Senior Member
My nice died as I and several relatives sat in the hospice room waiting for the inevitable. She had gone through chemo twice but the cancer still took her. She had always been a user of cannabis and had upped that usage greatly due to the belief of her friends that it could do her benefit. The family did not object as it was time to try anything.
I all but knew it was not going to help in any way and it didn't.

Cannabinoids do not cure cancer.

ETA: I survived colon cancer after surgery, chemo and radiation(2001)
OT: Wow, horrifying story, and it's one that affects so many families across the world. My father survived prostate cancer while smoking 2 packs a day, and still hasn't stopped smoking. It really irks me because on one hand I'm so happy my father is around, but here is a guy who smokes cigarettes and weed like there's no tomorrow and he's pushing 70yrs old with 2 knee replacements and a belly that would make Santa jealous. I guess the question is why or how does someone who blatantly disregards his health survive cancer while others are defeated at such a young age.

Jaydee how old was your niece if you don't mind sharing?
 

jaydeehess

Senior Member.
OT: Wow, horrifying story, and it's one that affects so many families across the world. My father survived prostate cancer while smoking 2 packs a day, and still hasn't stopped smoking. It really irks me because on one hand I'm so happy my father is around, but here is a guy who smokes cigarettes and weed like there's no tomorrow and he's pushing 70yrs old with 2 knee replacements and a belly that would make Santa jealous. I guess the question is why or how does someone who blatantly disregards his health survive cancer while others are defeated at such a young age.

Jaydee how old was your niece if you don't mind sharing?
35 two kids
 

Bill

Senior Member.
In this article they discuss 20 case studies about Cannibus and how it can cure cancer. Each of the studies have been published in very reputable Journals like the British Journal of Cancer, or The Journal of Neuroscience to name a few; Here is the site; http://www.collective-evolution.com...-studies-that-prove-cannabis-can-cure-cancer/
Contrary to what the referenced article says none of these studies actually prove that cannabis can cure cancer. It is bad reporting of actual science.

It's way to early to draw any conclusions from these studies beyond cannabinoids may have anti-tumor applications that deserve further study. Some of these studies aren't on actual organisms they are on isolated cell lines; others seem to be animal studies that may not be applicable to humans. One is not a cancer study at all - it is a study of the effects of cannabinoids on neurodegeneration. While all conclude that there is potential that deserves further study it is reaching to look at these studies and then claim there are benefits from any form of cannabis ingestion.
 

Jason

Senior Member
Contrary to what the referenced article says none of these studies actually prove that cannabis can cure cancer. It is bad reporting of actual science.

It's way to early to draw any conclusions from these studies beyond cannabinoids may have anti-tumor applications that deserve further study. Some of these studies aren't on actual organisms they are on isolated cell lines; others seem to be animal studies that may not be applicable to humans. One is not a cancer study at all - it is a study of the effects of cannabinoids on neurodegeneration. While all conclude that there is potential that deserves further study it is reaching to look at these studies and then claim there are benefits from any form of cannabis ingestion.
Agreed, but it gives them a valid reason to study cannibus in more depth. Get government approval and or FDA approval to run 10yr trials, so we can have a study that either validates the claims or makes the claims invalid...
 

jaydeehess

Senior Member.
Agreed, but it gives them a valid reason to study cannibus in more depth. Get government approval and or FDA approval to run 10yr trials, so we can have a study that either validates the claims or makes the claims invalid...
At any one time there are already hundreds of substances being tested for use against cancer, including cannibinols.
Some cannibinols have been shown to have anti-tumour properties, most in vitro but a few in vivo. Thing is there are also some cannibinols (there are several , all present in the cannibis leaf) that have indications that they ENCOURAGE tumour growth. Ingesting weed in any form may, but probably won't, have any desirable effect.

Might as well just eat ground apple seeds.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Ingesting weed in any form may, but probably won't, have any desirable effect.
This is the part most pot heads will never get. That what has been shown to work in laboratory settings, does not equal bong hits do the same.

There is a desirable effect though! :D
 

jaydeehess

Senior Member.
This is the part most pot heads will never get. That what has been shown to work in laboratory settings, does not equal bong hits do the same.

There is a desirable effect though! :D
Yes, a case could be made that there is a desirable effect, though personally while I had considered it desirable in my youth, I drifted away from its use at about age 30. Tried it again in my later 40s and decided that I very much no longer desired that effect at all. To be honest I am now the same way about the 'desirable' effects of large amounts of alcohol as well.:)
 

psi

New Member
Unfortunately I have some friends that read the Natural News and are really taken in by this stuff and the Big Pharma conspiracy. I saw a post claiming TPTB are repressing research on cannabis and within minutes I had produced a shedload of papers. However these claims are dangerous as some people buy into it and think eating weed is going to cure people.

The Big Pharma conspiracy is an annoyance of mine as we have socialised health care and essentially the government negotiates over prices. As for witholding the cure for cancer it seems that most people don't realise the bulk.of research is done by charities or academia and hospitals.

I don't understand why "such claims" are labelled "dangerous" without anyone commenting on the many decades of mass imprisonment, ruined lives, government mayhem, etc., caused by the fraudulent war on cannabis.The truth is that no one really knows, at this point in time, what all the possibly relevant medical modalities of the plant might be. There are, however, many reasons to think that the up to 60 active ingredients in cannabis contain more than a few treatments for many diseases, including some types of cancer. It would be nice to read a more balanced and contextualized discussion of the politics of claims, both pro and con, about this remarkable and important plant.
 
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