British Pilot's Association Reporting 5 Laser Attacks/Day, Calls for Laser Ban

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Worldwide, these attacks are being reported from far flung locations such as Malta and even Fiji, with "epidemic" levels in Russia and the US.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/43...pts-to-blind-pilots-put-UK-passengers-at-risk
EXCLUSIVE: Laser horror as attempts to blind pilots put UK passengers at risk
THOUSANDS of planes coming in to land at Britain’s busiest airports are in danger of crashing because pilots are being 'blinded' by laser pen attackers.
By: Ted Jeory
Published: Sun, September 29, 2013

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These lasers could knock a passenger jet out of the sky

Britain’s largest pilots’ union is so concerned by a recent spate of incidents it has issued an emergency bulletin to members advising them how to avoid being blinded and losing control of their planes.

The British Airline Pilots’ Association (Balpa) now wants the law changed so anyone caught in possession of the higher powered lasers without a “legitimate reason” to be jailed.

“Slaps on wrists and £150 fines are not enough - custodial sentences should be the norm,” a spokesman said yesterday.
 
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Mick West

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A serious issue, but it's sprinkled with British tabloid sensationalism. According to their story, the rate of incidents actually went down significantly from 2011 to 2012
And the current stated rate of "five times a day" is the same as in 2012.

Here's the BALPA advisory, which seems to date back from around 2007. The rate has certainly gone up.
http://www.balpa.org/Emergency-help/Laser-Attack.aspx

Here's a more serious UK story from Feb 2013. It as much smaller numbers.
 

Oxymoron

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This seems totally hyped up hysterical bunk to me. Here are 'protesters' celebrating by lighting up the helicopters in Egypt

More celebrations with fireworks and lasers and clapping and cheering.

 

Mick West

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Hyped up? It can certainly temporarily blind pilots while they are landing (kind of like someone firing a camera flash in your face while driving at night - give that a go). And there have been many reports of actual eye damage.
 

Oxymoron

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Hyped up? It can certainly temporarily blind pilots while they are landing (kind of like someone firing a camera flash in your face while driving at night - give that a go). And there have been many reports of actual eye damage.
I seems really hyped to me, do you have any reports of pilots eye damage from lasers?

This seems to put things in perspective and disagrees with your statement:
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/how2reduceincidents/pilots/pilots.html
It certainly didn't seem to bother any of the Egyptian helicopter pilots or the cameraman in this video, (and there are lots of lasers there).

NB around 11.30

 

Mick West

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And it's not really much an issue during the day, what with the iris and all. (not much light goes in the eyes). And if you know it's there, you will avoid looking at it, or look at it though a camera video viewfinder.
 

Landru

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Staff member
I seems really hyped to me, do you have any reports of pilots eye damage from lasers?

This seems to put things in perspective and disagrees with your statement:
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/how2reduceincidents/pilots/pilots.html
It certainly didn't seem to bother any of the Egyptian helicopter pilots or the cameraman in this video, (and there are lots of lasers there).

NB around 11.30

It wasn't permanent damage but it was dangerous.

http://www.metro.us/philadelphia/ne...man-pointed-laser-at-helicopter-blinds-pilot/

 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Pete Tar said:
Are you actually defending laser attacks oxy?
There is no defense for the crime of interference in any way with a pilot in flight.
Here in the US, you get two years in Federal prison.
Go ask Adam Gardenhire.

Probably the pilots in Egypt knew they were entering a war zone and had protection. That shouldn't be the case in civilized countries, except that retards do stupid stuff.
 

David Fraser

Senior Member.
Oxy don't you think you need to take into account of the motivations of the twats doing this? It appears you are an apologist for their actions.
 

Oxymoron

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Are you actually defending laser attacks oxy?
Of course I am not. I don't know where you would get such an idea. I was simply saying 'the whole thing seems hyped up and exaggerated', in regard to the risks.

Laser horror as attempts to blind pilots put UK passengers at risk
THOUSANDS of planes
Thousands of planes? Thousands of lasers? Intent to blind? Says who?

I then posted video of the helicopters ablaze with laser lights and no one is even concerned in the slightest... no big panics. And then some down to earth advice for pilots and general info.
 
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Oxymoron

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Oxy don't you think you need to take into account of the motivations of the twats doing this? It appears you are an apologist for their actions.
Motivation is the biggest thing here. There is extremely little danger of any problem being caused by the lasers as is demonstrated in the above posts. That people in other places are shining lasers at pilots in support and or celebrations, demonstrates that.

The worrying thing is if people are intending to cause damage/injury. It doesn't state how many of those instances 'of use' are from such a motivation, although it strongly implies they all are but who actually knows?

I know you monitor such threats on fb etc but it is pure conjecture unless someone admits to it or is caught 'actually doing it', after making a threat to cause damage/injury. It could more likely and just as easily be teenagers or kids messing around.

If it is motivated by an intent to cause real damage/injury, obviously I would condemn it out of hand.

The most worrying part of it is to think some people are so dumb, they actually think they may be able to do damage to pilots/aircraft with these lasers. The only outside chance of temporarily blinding someone for a few seconds is if it was on take off or landing. Landing obviously being the most dangerous time. The chances of that causing injury are really small and the chances of the perp being apprehended are quite high.
 
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Mick West

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Motivation is the biggest thing here. There is extremely little danger of any problem being caused by the lasers as is demonstrated in the above posts. That people in other places are shining lasers at pilots in support and or celebrations, demonstrates that.
Motivation is irrelevant. The biggest thing is unexpectedness. The Egyptian pilots knew there were green lasers, they are obviously common, and they had seen them all day. They probably have had to wear eye protection for years because of this problem.

You see police helicopters hovering over someone shining a green laser at them, while they watch the perp with a camera.
Police depts have been using laser protective eyegear:
http://www.noirlaser.com/news/arrest.html
http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_2c4f267c-3209-50cd-8fe8-31e6eb0560a9.html
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/n...iles/84e9350631a014a419567e02001f23b0-436.php
upload_2013-10-16_15-57-43.png
As do military pilots, this is from 1998, when these lasers were far less common.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/ccw/news/bosnia981104_laser.html
upload_2013-10-16_15-53-47.png
This page has quite a rogue's gallery of people who got caught.
http://www.laserpointersafety.com/news/news/aviation-incidents_files/category-arrests.php
 

Trigger Hippie

Senior Member.
The Egyptian pilots knew there were green lasers, they are obviously common, and they had seen them all day. They probably have had to wear eye protection for years because of this problem.
Also, the lasers were being aimed from below and painted the underside of the helicopter as opposed to having them aimed into a pilots eyes during landing procedures.

apache.jpg laser.jpg

Furthermore, these look like AH-64 Apache helicopters, the crew wear IHADSS helmets (at least they used to) which have laser protective visors as an option.

This page has quite a rogue's gallery of people who got caught.
...and here's another: Aiming Laser Pointer at Airplane Gets Man 2.5 Years in Prison
 
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Pete Tar

Senior Member.
Motivation is the biggest thing here. ..
If it is motivated by an intent to cause real damage/injury, obviously I would condemn it out of hand.

...
That is the only possible intent behind shining a green laser at a plane - it is specifically malevolent.
There is no legitimate 'peaceful' reason.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
We can all rest assured that Oxy in his armchair is far more familiar with the hazards presented by five laser attacks per day in the UK than the 10,000 members of the British Airline Pilots’ Association.

If I were close enough, I'm sure he would allow himself to be the guinea pig and let me shine a laser as much as I wanted into his car windscreen as he drove along a busy two-lane road at night.......
 
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Oxymoron

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We can all rest assured that Oxy in his armchair is far more familiar with the hazards presented by five laser attacks per day in the UK than the 10,000 members of the British Airline Pilots’ Association.
Classy... personal attack, sensationalism and appeal to authority all in 1 and a bit lines. Shows the strength of your argument methinks.

Did every one of those 10,000 pilots say that or is it just you saying that? What do the Egyptian pilots have to say about it... guessing they are a bit more robust and don't complain... just get on with it.

TBH, I am more concerned about the amount of hours the pilots travel and that many are asleep at the controls.

If I were close enough, I'm sure he would allow himself to be the guinea pig and let me shine a laser as much as I wanted into his car windscreen as he drove along a busy two-lane road at night.......
Yeah you are welcome to try to shine it in as much as you like whilst I am moving at over a hundred miles an hour and a quarter mile away. You could always just drive around lurking around bends on full beam though, lots of people do that.
 
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Mick West

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Geez Oxy. Can we just agree that
  • It's a bit of a problem according to pilots, some of whom suffered temporary eye damage.
  • Tabloids sensationalize everything.
  • Chemtrail believers have suggested pointing lasers at planes
?
 

Oxymoron

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Geez Oxy. Can we just agree that
  • It's a bit of a problem according to pilots, some of whom suffered temporary eye damage.
  • Tabloids sensationalize everything.
  • Chemtrail believers have suggested pointing lasers at planes
?
I am happy with that. I just didn't like the way it seemed to be blown out of proportion. Even the 'temporary eye damage' thing. If I get a bug fly in my eye, i will have 'temporary eye damage'. Just seems overblown, especially when it could be remedied by a pair of glasses or a tint on the screen.
 

solrey

Senior Member.
When I was about 12 I had a paper route. One particularly snowy winter when chunks of ice had accumulated alongside the roads and driveways this one kid in our neighborhood a couple of years older than me thought it would be fun to pelt me with big chunks of ice one day. He knocked me half unconscious but I was able to get away with just a minor gash in my scalp but mom kinda freaked out over all the blood in my hair and knit cap. The next day, he tried the same thing but I was looking out for him, deflected the chunks of ice with my paper bag and just skipped his house, too bad so sad no paper today still got a knot on my head now bugger off. But instead of staying in defense mode and wearing pads and a helmet or something, the third day I rushed him using my bag as a shield, chased him down and beat his ass in the middle of his own yard. The kid had been a bully his whole life but a totally humiliating whoopin' that left him bloodied and crying in full view of a group of kids playing in a yard across the street, seemed to mellow him out a lot. These idiots shining lasers at planes should also learn that their actions will not be tolerated. Why should pilots be forced to react because of a few morons doing something stupid? I say go after the perps.
 

Mick West

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The problem is that the perps are generally young idiots. They are faced with huge fines, they are frequently caught, and some end up in jail. So they ARE going after the perps, but it's not going to make the problem go away. People still throw rocks off bridges for the lulz.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/30-months-slammer-man-who-pointed-green-laser-aircraft

 

Bill

Senior Member.
The problem is that the perps are generally young idiots. They are faced with huge fines, they are frequently caught, and some end up in jail. So they ARE going after the perps, but it's not going to make the problem go away. People still throw rocks off bridges for the lulz.

http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/30-months-slammer-man-who-pointed-green-laser-aircraft

What I have trouble understanding is why some people think its the victims responsibility to prevent the perpetrator from doing damage. What ever happened to being responsible for your own actions?
 

M Bornong

Senior Member.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/fbi-plane-laser-attacks-probed-terrorism-unit-20617814
 
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Oxymoron

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What I have trouble understanding is why some people think its the victims responsibility to prevent the perpetrator from doing damage. What ever happened to being responsible for your own actions?
If you leave your house and leave the doors and windows open and you get your stuff stolen... the insurance company will not pay out as YOU have been negligent.
 

Pete Tar

Senior Member.
And is your point that flying a plane and being attacked by lasers is negligent on the part of the pilots?
That's a frankly disgusting view.
 

Oxymoron

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And is your point that flying a plane and being attacked by lasers is negligent on the part of the pilots?
That's a frankly disgusting view.
I would have thought my point was obvious... which is why I left it at that point. But I'll spell it out now. It is a requirement and responsibility to take appropriate precautions rather than whinge on about 'Why should it be my responsibility'.

If they don't take appropriate precautions and against all odds something does happen and a plane crashes... are you seriously going to sit there saying... 'It wasn't the airlines responsibility to take precautions, that 15 yo kid on marijuana should have been more responsible and not broken the law'.:rolleyes:
 

Bill

Senior Member.
If you leave your house and leave the doors and windows open and you get your stuff stolen... the insurance company will not pay out as YOU have been negligent.
1) That's a comparison of apples and oranges
2) Assuming you have coverage for personal property, the insurance company will pay in the event of theft. You can still purchase policies without a personal property endorsement but those are rare in the US. Insurance is one of my family businesses and in 30+ years we have never had a claim denied because the doors were unlocked. The only time I've seen anything like that come into play is on construction sites. The police will also arrest the burglars because the thieves are responsible for their own actions. The argument I robbed him because he didn't do enough to stop me doesn't work in the real world.
3) A better comparison would be driving down the road, someone throwing a rock through your window and being informed it was your fault for being on the road and providing a moving target.
 

Bill

Senior Member.
I would have thought my point was obvious... which is why I left it at that point. But I'll spell it out now. It is a requirement and responsibility to take appropriate precautions rather than whinge on about 'Why should it be my responsibility'.
I guess the victims of the DC sniper were at fault because they left the house without their bullet proof vest. You seem intent on obviating the personal responsibility of the people committing the act.
 

Oxymoron

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1) That's a comparison of apples and oranges
2) Assuming you have coverage for personal property, the insurance company will pay in the event of theft. You can still purchase policies without a personal property endorsement but those are rare in the US. Insurance is one of my family businesses and in 30+ years we have never had a claim denied because the doors were unlocked. The only time I've seen anything like that come into play is on construction sites. The police will also arrest the burglars because the thieves are responsible for their own actions. The argument I robbed him because he didn't do enough to stop me doesn't work in the real world.
3) A better comparison would be driving down the road, someone throwing a rock through your window and being informed it was your fault for being on the road and providing a moving target.
Of course that isn't a more appropriate analogy. There is no way to protect against someone throwing a rock at you but there is an easy remedy for the lasers and airlines/pilots should incorporate them... if they are as concerned as you claim and if the 'problem' is that wide spread
 

derwoodii

Senior Member.
[Admin: Moved from "Advocating violence....." thread]

not sure where to put this,,,, but here about best i can think its Egypt crowds vs a chopper with lasers

 
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