Mendel
Senior Member.
If it's about these specific specimen, then this thread is ok. (But you could create a new thread if there is new evidence you'd like to discuss.)
If it's about something different, please create a new thread.
Alien Bodies at a Mexican UAP Hearing
- Thread starter Mick West
- Start date
If it's about something different, please create a new thread.
Ann K
Senior Member.
Now we have an American political figure jumping in.
https://nypost.com/2024/08/14/us-news/tim-burchett-pledges-to-help-probe-perus-alien-mummies/External Quote:
Well, that sounds like a great use of taxpayer dollars.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Well, that sounds like a great use of taxpayer dollars.
Might be fun to see how UT and the Vols handle this one. No legit anthropology program would fool around with these things. Hopefully, they tell Burchett quietly behind closed doors that these are fake, and any anthropologist (and most lay people) can tell with just a glance. No need to study them anymore. Then he just drops it.
One can hope.
Maussan has to be a bit worried too. IF Burchett presses UT to look into these things, there is the possibility they'll go full debunk. A detailed analysis of how and what these are made of showing them to the fakes that they are. Maussan always wants to control the narrative.
John J.
Senior Member.
(1) Could this be a long search?
(2) Are Xi Jinping, Mr. Putin and the Pope attending an Elvis convention?
Edited to add: Kim Jong-un might not be amongst the most important people, but in a free and fair poll in the Democratic People's Republic of Korea he was voted the country's best Elvis impersonator by 100% of the population.
His covers of Jailhouse Rock and Blue Suede Shoes are legendary, and his In The Ghetto makes everyone question the distribution of wealth and opportunity in America.
Last edited:
Ann K
Senior Member.
I hope so, and so do my daughter and her husband, both professors at UT. (They live on the west side, not far from the "body farm".) Although if Burchett manages to scrape up some money for the anthropology department, so much the better...
JMartJr
Senior Member.
On the other hand, no legit anthropology program would fail to document and share just how fake they are. Heck, even if they only discover the stuff we've already discussed, "the best" anthropologists" as chosen by a Believer to examine these silly things might have more clout with "leaners" on the topic than our board full of Mean Old Skeptics (MOSes).
And a fun teaching aid for their students!
I don't see a downside. I hope it happens.
Indeed. Anthropology programs are always hard up for funding, even if they end up biting the hand that fed them by saying "fakes, all fakes" it may help some poor graduate student finish their degree.
Every time I look at the these I can't help but laugh. Look at some Egyptian mummies, then look at these, they are too SYMMETRICAL! If the Egyptian mummification industry couldn't make mummified bodies remain perfectly symmetrical how did these remain that way?
MonkeeSage
Senior Member.
I think these would be the smaller specimens like the ones presented at the Mexican Congressional hearing last September, and the ones confiscated by the Peruvian government at an airport in January of this year and determined to be fakes (Scientists assert 'alien mummies' in Peru are really dolls made from Earthly bones). I don't recall Maussan being involved with the larger ones that may be actual human remains with the hands and feet intentionally altered.
Either way, there are a several obstacles for this to actually happen.
The Peruvian government has had a huge problem with cultural artifacts and mummies being stolen and sold oversees for over a decade.
They, and neighboring countries, closely monitor shipments which is how they found the dolls in January. So it would be hard to get more dolls, or especially the human sized specimens, out of Peru with all the current publicity and scrutiny of the specimens.
Assuming Maussan managed to get whichever specimens here, illegally, if Peru claims they are their national property they would likely be returned immediately by the US. The US has a standing agreement with Peru to combat trafficking of cultural artifacts and return them to Peru.
Even if Maussan is only talking about the specimens already in Mexico, I think they would still have the same legal issues.
Assuming Maussan managed to get Peru to agree to a temporary export agreement for the specimens to be studied, and everything was above board and legal, I have to wonder if any respected institutions would want to be associated with the specimens. But maybe someone like Gary Nolan would be willing to look at them like he did in 2014 with Greer's Atacama specimen and the "Starchild" skull (Dr. Garry Nolan Talks Ata, Starchild Skull and Science).
Either way, there are a several obstacles for this to actually happen.
The Peruvian government has had a huge problem with cultural artifacts and mummies being stolen and sold oversees for over a decade.
Article: On November 6 [2012], a 700-year-old mummy from southern Peru which had been stolen by artifact traffickers was returned to its country. The mummified body of a toddler from a late pre-Columbian society was seized by customs officials in 2009 in Bolivia, after a buyer attempted to have it shipped to France. [...] The government of Peru estimates that some $18 million in archaeological artifacts are stolen in the country annually, and in recent years it has been attempting to crack down on the phenomenon. In Bolivia, officials have warned about the existence of "mafias" dedicated to the trade, with links throughout South America and Europe.
They, and neighboring countries, closely monitor shipments which is how they found the dolls in January. So it would be hard to get more dolls, or especially the human sized specimens, out of Peru with all the current publicity and scrutiny of the specimens.
Assuming Maussan managed to get whichever specimens here, illegally, if Peru claims they are their national property they would likely be returned immediately by the US. The US has a standing agreement with Peru to combat trafficking of cultural artifacts and return them to Peru.
Article: For 20 years, the United States and Peru have worked together to reduce illicit trafficking of Peruvian cultural objects and support sustainable protection of archaeological and Colonial period cultural resources.
This week [June 6, 2017], the United States and Peru will extend their Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) to continue import restrictions on archaeological and certain Colonial period material from all areas of Peru. Originally signed in 1997, the MOU and associated import restrictions will be extended for an additional five years and will include Colonial period documents and manuscripts for the first time. This extension will allow U.S. law enforcement to continue combatting the trafficking of Peruvian antiquities.
Even if Maussan is only talking about the specimens already in Mexico, I think they would still have the same legal issues.
Assuming Maussan managed to get Peru to agree to a temporary export agreement for the specimens to be studied, and everything was above board and legal, I have to wonder if any respected institutions would want to be associated with the specimens. But maybe someone like Gary Nolan would be willing to look at them like he did in 2014 with Greer's Atacama specimen and the "Starchild" skull (Dr. Garry Nolan Talks Ata, Starchild Skull and Science).
JMartJr
Senior Member.
I just checked, there are daily flights available from Tennessee to Peru, from around $900 to up around $1,500, round trip. Flights to Mexico are cheaper. If need be, they can go to the dolls if the dolls won;t come to them.
True, on the other hand publicity is publicity, as the old saying goes "The only bad publicity is an obituary!" and as long as your team does not make you look silly, and looks professional, it might be deemed net positive. The University's development folks (fund raisers) would possible like it a lot. And while I do not know any Tennessee anthropologists or archaeologists, but there are certainly folks in those fields who are not fans of seeing their area of study made into a scam by the Maussans of the world, and are pleased to expose bunk when given the opportunity.
One can hope.
Mendel
Senior Member.
Won't happen.
Burchett saying "independent of the federal government" means he's already down the rabbit hole, at which point anyone telling him what he doesn't want to hear is 'in on it' and 'can't be trusted'.
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
Could very well be. UT is famous for its body farm, where cadavers are allowed to decompose naturally in a number of settings and as such is considered a top rate forensics school. IF Burchett wants "the best people" that are "right here in Tennesse" and he mentioned UT, I would assume he's talking about the Anthro and Forensics people at UT. Now if they tell him up front they're fake, who does he turn to? Maybe someone like Nolan, but now he's back to an expert-non-expert that has already been burned with Atta.
If he does turn to a Nolan or someone outside of UT, that raises some questions. Is Burchett implying that his alma mater is covering up the truth? As he's already mentioned UT and people in Tennesse, I'd think it's possible he's still naive enough to think Maussan is onto something and the folks at UT are going to prove that. Again, if they flat out say these are fake and not worth studying Mr. Congressman, I guess it depends on how much cognitive dissonance he's willing to put up with.
I still think UT will use the spirit of the NAGPRA laws that apply in the US and the fact that these are looted to keep their distance. As much as I'd like to see a full debunk, it won't really matter in the circles this stuff is important in. The mere fact that an institution like UT looked at these, if that happens, will be spun as "Hey look, real forensic Anthropologists are intrigued by this mystery! More research is needed!"
NoParty
Senior Member.
Hopefully they also thoroughly examine the Temu bag the objects came in...
FatPhil
Senior Member.
There should be no surprise in his appearance in yet another aliens story, that's his wheelhouse. An MB search for Burchett shows we've been aware of his acritical woo-pushing for at least three years. Most often mentioned because of his role in the Grusch/House Oversight Committee drama.
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
The "dolls" seized at Customs are not the same as the smaller specimens presented at the hearing. The former are 30cm and extremely crude, sold to tourists, and Maussan's team admits they are fake but have taken advantage of the confusion. The latter are 60cm - Josefina, Victoria, Clara, Alberto, etc. as presented to Congress and portrayed on The Alien Project website.
And yes, Maussan is involved with the larger ones (modified humans, e.g. Maria) and frequently conflates the smaller and larger, again to create confusion. I suspect going forward he will focus on the larger ones because the smaller ones are becoming harder to defend as once-living creatures.
And for this reason the grift will continue. The mummies will never leave the country (legally) but Maussan dangles the possibility it will happen, and gathers soundbytes from Americans about ways it might happen (such as the interview with Burchett and the grant for the body farm, which has nothing to do with the mummies of course, as well as from Dr McDowell during his recent visit to Peru).
The catchcry "More research is needed!" is another way of never having to produce a conclusive statement about the mummies either way. Even though there are smoking guns aplenty that prove they're hoaxes, the angle is pushed that the results are inconclusive and more research is needed - specifically research in the USA, which is impossible, thus the ambiguity remains. Ambiguity means aliens are still on the table.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
To which, I believe, the only remedy is for some serious people to follow through on taking it seriously, call the bluff and show conclusively if they are fakes or not. (They are, but I am not a serious anthropologist so my saying so does not move the ball forward any further!) Recognizing the difficulties in transporting the mummies to said serious people, the only way to quell this tactic is likely going to be some person of anthropological/archeological stature going to the mummies. That will require somebody with some funds (which Rep. Burchett may unwittingly provide) and a willingness to risk getting entangled in this nonsense if the payoff is removing a popular bit of fake anthropology/archeology scamming from the intellectual landscape.
I'll hope, but not excessively...
Ann K
Senior Member.
...and have the True Believers (and those with money to gain in the scam) ignore the evidence and decry the "fake science". It's what we have seen people do again and again with different topics. A conspiracy mindset is a hard habit to break.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
Absolutely. I don't see ANYTHING as the magic silver bullet to slay a silly conspiracy theory or bit of bunk. It is merely the only way I see to remove the "more study is needed" trope. Do the study. Study shows it's fake. Next bit of handwaving ad hoc silliness is then on deck, definitely.
eshanas
New Member
And let's not forget that most likely these are a sort of religious fetish of an Ancient American culture made out of kids and bones and beans. Let's not like, just snap them open, lets remember what these things were to a real culture of humans that got caught up in this mess.
John J.
Senior Member.
Having read the thread, I think it's much more likely the smaller "bodies" (those at the Mexican hearing) were constructed for the purposes of deception.
Disturbingly, they may well include materials taken from genuine archaeological finds or more recent burials.
Ann K
Senior Member.
I've seen no suggestion to that effect. Have you any evidence to cite?
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
Given the plausible likelihood they are recent constructions (made from old bones), I think it would be acceptable to snap open one of them - a sacrifice to the cause.
Rosalind
New Member
There's a very good chance that the 60 cm J-type bodies are partially the remains of human children, at least the torso. Steve Mera talks about this in his second video, which is linked earlier in this thread. He visited Peru twice, and has interacted with several specimens.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ41R7ypg4c
I had an anthropologist friend take one look at the CT for "Josefina" and say "those hips are from a primate who walks upright".
The Cen4gen sequencing includes two samples from Victoria and one that is claimed to be from Maria. ancient0002 and ancient0004 are Victoria. Abraxas Biosystems and Biotecmol have published reports on the DNA samples taken from the specimens, both of which show human DNA.
You can also analyze the raw data. For example, if we do a phylogenetic tree on the mitochondrial DNA of the sequencing, and include bonobos and chimps, the evolutionary relationship becomes very clear. Our closest living relatives are bonobos and chimpanzees, and how far they are from all of the Nazca samples pops right out in the attached tree. Note that not all sequences are high-confidence just because of the nature of degradation, but you can see, roughly, the relationships.
I've also included a screenshot of a hundred bases of multiple individuals, aligned and compared: the human reference sequence (rCRS), all three mtDNA sequences for ancient0002, ancient0003, and ancient0004, plus bonobos and chimps. You can see visually how very different the Pan sequences are from the Homo sequences.
References:
https://www.the-alien-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/ABRAXAS-EN.pdf
https://www.the-alien-project.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/BIOTECMOL-EN.pdf
Last edited:
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
As far as I can tell, Mr. Mera has zero credentials in anything related to Bio-Archaeology, Anthropology, Osteology or any other field of study that might lend some insights to these things. The description for the video you shared states:
So, Mr. Mera is a "renowned UFO and paranormal researcher", though I will confess this is the first I've heard of him. More disturbing is some of the claims on Mera's website, Project Doorway, where it appears, he is trying to sell a UFO Investigation Training Course that will set one back about 99 quid:External Quote:
Lest one think this course is just about UFOs, fear not, some of the first 10 modules include:
UFO's, cattle mutilations, government cover ups, ghost hunting equipment and finally in module 10, one gets a bit the scientific method. Then there's the advanced modules with things like crop circles:External Quote:
https://www.awakeningevents.co.uk/courses/External Quote:
He seems to think UFOs, cryptids and other paranormal activity are the manifestations of a non-human and/or possibly demonic intelligence. Or something like that. Some other tidbits from his website:
External Quote:
External Quote:
https://www.awakeningevents.co.uk/project-doorway/External Quote:
I'll leave it at that for now. As it appears the video is about his conclusion that the mummies are fake, I guess it shows not everyone can be fooled. But I'd think his analysis has no real value, other to confirm that these are fakes to people that seem agree with him on other esoteric topics.
John J.
Senior Member.
Hi Rosalind, and welcome,
Yes, it's likely human remains have been incorporated into these "mummies", though the torso clearly isn't a straightforward use of a single human (pre-term/ neonate/ infant) torso;
Must admit I haven't watched all 48 minutes of the vid, but I've skipped through some of it.
Don't think I'd heard of Steve Mera (the video's narrator) before I watched, he seems to have widespread interests in all things strange (here's his bio at the Awakening Events Ltd. website, https://www.awakeningevents.co.uk/steve-mera2/).
I did rather like his no-nonsense opinions between approx. 18:13 and 18:32 into the video, where he talks about visiting the mummies and some of the other researchers- any errors in transcribing are mine:
Yes, it's likely human remains have been incorporated into these "mummies", though the torso clearly isn't a straightforward use of a single human (pre-term/ neonate/ infant) torso;
Must admit I haven't watched all 48 minutes of the vid, but I've skipped through some of it.
Don't think I'd heard of Steve Mera (the video's narrator) before I watched, he seems to have widespread interests in all things strange (here's his bio at the Awakening Events Ltd. website, https://www.awakeningevents.co.uk/steve-mera2/).
I did rather like his no-nonsense opinions between approx. 18:13 and 18:32 into the video, where he talks about visiting the mummies and some of the other researchers- any errors in transcribing are mine:
Steve gets more direct about claims that the mummies are the remains of once-living extraterrestrials,External Quote:
External Quote:
Or it's part of the grift: "A discerning individual like you won't be taken in by such obvious fakes. That's why I know you won't settle for any less than my top-of-the-line transdimensional jellyfish scanner. How else will you be certain that your loved ones aren't under the influence of intrusive tendrils?
Say "no" to intrusive tendrils and "yes" to independent thought."
Last edited:
Ann K
Senior Member.
@NorCal Dave
One kind of woo begets another. Since he has a product to sell, it's not at all clear which of these things he really believes and which he sees merely as a commercial activity, but I think his title is "snake oil salesman" rather than "qualified expert".External Quote:
NorCal Dave
Senior Member.
In post #426, I was just reacting to the YouTube video posted about Mera, which led me to his website. I really have no idea exactly what he's talking about, other than even he saw the mummies as fakes. Any further discussion, which might be fun, about Mr. Mera would need a new thread I would think. I must say, his assertion that a "new player" emerged in the 1850s that works with "strong negative anomalies" is an intriguing claim for further discussion elsewhere.
Rosalind
New Member
Hi, thanks for the welcome!
Apart from the tangential dive into Steve Mera's background, I think the rest of my work is worth examining, and I also think that it is compelling. I don't need Mera's commentary to make my point - I made it myself by analyzing the data that they published.
I had never heard of Mera either, and am not familiar with anything else he's done, but I do know he's a UFOlogist or UFO-adjacent. I added that video because he had been to Peru twice, and a common criticism from believers is "you just haven't come to Peru and studied the bodies". I think, like @NorCal Dave says, that it's actually MORE compelling because he is a UFO/aliens believer, and still comes out and says the mummies are modified remains of humans and animals. He also talks about the personalities involved, how the scam works, etc. - it's a very informative couple of videos that he's published.
To reiterate, the DNA results show that at least the sampled sites on the 60 cm "Victoria" (the seated, headless mummy, the one missing the modified camelid skull) are human. Victoria's samples were taken from her vertebrae.
Here is the same data, a different approach. This plot that was published by Konstantin Korotkov and is used to claim Maria and "Wawita", clearly a human child, were outside of the normal human variation.
(
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienBodies/comments/1f2rcq4/data_science_tuesday_pca_plots_genetic_diversity/
)
You know how I said that my anthropologist friend took one look at the CT imaging on the 60 cm bodies and said "that is from a hominid that walks upright?" I can take one look at this plot and see that Maria and Wawita fall within normal human variation. Anybody who has worked with the 1000genomes data knows what this plot says: that Maria and Wawita are indigenous Americans, possibly pre-dating the conquistadores due to their distance from the sampled European populations. They would probably also notice the omission of almost all of the American populations from this plot. And it is also worth noting that Maria and Wawita were plotted with a small fraction of the variants available in the other populations, as they are ancient, and a whole-genome sequence could not be recovered.
1000genomes populations include, among others, South Americans: a Colombian population and a Peruvian population. If you plot the full 1000genomes dataset, you will see that the Peruvians are just about where Maria and Wawita are. Excluding those American genomes is highly problematic in this analysis, because it makes it look to the untrained eye like they are very different... but for example, Maria and Wawita are both closer to Asian populations than African populations, and Maria is closer to Mexicans than Asians, and those things both line up with what we know about the history of human migration and the peopling of the Americas. Maria would be indigenous, and the admixed populations of Mexicans and Puerto Ricans show where you would expect, part way between Europeans and the indigenous populations of the Americas. Which I repeat that they excluded from this plot.
I can spot a 1000genomes PCA plot at 100 paces. Anybody with experience in human population genetics can probably do the same. If you want to see what the whole dataset looks like when you plot PC1 against PC2, they're all over the Internet, but here are some examples:
(ref: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ations-PCA-of-A-AA-ncase2-991_fig10_329192531)
(
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienBodies/comments/1f2rcq4/data_science_tuesday_pca_plots_genetic_diversity/
)
(ref: https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/12/11/1842)
"AMR" is the American superpopulation. And I really like the second plot above, because it visually distinguishes the Peruvian population sample in Lima. They are the points marked as blue diamonds, which is approximately where Maria and Wawita show up on the original plot. The third one is also interesting, because it plots about 15,000 genomes from the Qatari genome project, which fills in a lot of space in the original dataset.
The hips in at least some of the 60 cm bodies are infant or child human hips (this is unpublished work, but a comparative anatomist in the US has used the CT scans and segmented out one of the hip bones; contact me directly if you would like more information). The researchers at Antropogenez (https://antropogenez.ru/review/1119/) also point out that many of the bones in the little ones are human, just based off of the X-rays. LucaML has a video interview with them here:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecCK6lijdts
. There are many good videos on that channel.
I believe that the Peruvian Ministry of Culture has made a mistake by claiming the large mummies like Maria as cultural heritage, but writing off the little mummies as fakes. I think we have good evidence that at least some of the little ones are also the modified remains of human children.
Apart from the tangential dive into Steve Mera's background, I think the rest of my work is worth examining, and I also think that it is compelling. I don't need Mera's commentary to make my point - I made it myself by analyzing the data that they published.
I had never heard of Mera either, and am not familiar with anything else he's done, but I do know he's a UFOlogist or UFO-adjacent. I added that video because he had been to Peru twice, and a common criticism from believers is "you just haven't come to Peru and studied the bodies". I think, like @NorCal Dave says, that it's actually MORE compelling because he is a UFO/aliens believer, and still comes out and says the mummies are modified remains of humans and animals. He also talks about the personalities involved, how the scam works, etc. - it's a very informative couple of videos that he's published.
To reiterate, the DNA results show that at least the sampled sites on the 60 cm "Victoria" (the seated, headless mummy, the one missing the modified camelid skull) are human. Victoria's samples were taken from her vertebrae.
Here is the same data, a different approach. This plot that was published by Konstantin Korotkov and is used to claim Maria and "Wawita", clearly a human child, were outside of the normal human variation.
(
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienBodies/comments/1f2rcq4/data_science_tuesday_pca_plots_genetic_diversity/
)
You know how I said that my anthropologist friend took one look at the CT imaging on the 60 cm bodies and said "that is from a hominid that walks upright?" I can take one look at this plot and see that Maria and Wawita fall within normal human variation. Anybody who has worked with the 1000genomes data knows what this plot says: that Maria and Wawita are indigenous Americans, possibly pre-dating the conquistadores due to their distance from the sampled European populations. They would probably also notice the omission of almost all of the American populations from this plot. And it is also worth noting that Maria and Wawita were plotted with a small fraction of the variants available in the other populations, as they are ancient, and a whole-genome sequence could not be recovered.
1000genomes populations include, among others, South Americans: a Colombian population and a Peruvian population. If you plot the full 1000genomes dataset, you will see that the Peruvians are just about where Maria and Wawita are. Excluding those American genomes is highly problematic in this analysis, because it makes it look to the untrained eye like they are very different... but for example, Maria and Wawita are both closer to Asian populations than African populations, and Maria is closer to Mexicans than Asians, and those things both line up with what we know about the history of human migration and the peopling of the Americas. Maria would be indigenous, and the admixed populations of Mexicans and Puerto Ricans show where you would expect, part way between Europeans and the indigenous populations of the Americas. Which I repeat that they excluded from this plot.
I can spot a 1000genomes PCA plot at 100 paces. Anybody with experience in human population genetics can probably do the same. If you want to see what the whole dataset looks like when you plot PC1 against PC2, they're all over the Internet, but here are some examples:
(ref: https://www.researchgate.net/figure...ations-PCA-of-A-AA-ncase2-991_fig10_329192531)
(
Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/AlienBodies/comments/1f2rcq4/data_science_tuesday_pca_plots_genetic_diversity/
)
(ref: https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4425/12/11/1842)
"AMR" is the American superpopulation. And I really like the second plot above, because it visually distinguishes the Peruvian population sample in Lima. They are the points marked as blue diamonds, which is approximately where Maria and Wawita show up on the original plot. The third one is also interesting, because it plots about 15,000 genomes from the Qatari genome project, which fills in a lot of space in the original dataset.
The hips in at least some of the 60 cm bodies are infant or child human hips (this is unpublished work, but a comparative anatomist in the US has used the CT scans and segmented out one of the hip bones; contact me directly if you would like more information). The researchers at Antropogenez (https://antropogenez.ru/review/1119/) also point out that many of the bones in the little ones are human, just based off of the X-rays. LucaML has a video interview with them here:
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecCK6lijdts
. There are many good videos on that channel.
I believe that the Peruvian Ministry of Culture has made a mistake by claiming the large mummies like Maria as cultural heritage, but writing off the little mummies as fakes. I think we have good evidence that at least some of the little ones are also the modified remains of human children.
Last edited:
John J.
Senior Member.
@JMartJr , above, quoting Steve Mera,
Maybe the 1850s or thereabouts coincide with early widespread consumption of printed ghost stories and gothic novels, coupled with (in some European countries, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc.) some awareness of religious/ folk beliefs and extraordinary tales- snake charmers, "the Indian rope trick", communing with ancestors, traditional 'cryptids'- from other parts of the world or held by indigenous peoples in places where Europeans had settled.
"Penny dreadfuls" (and dime novels in the US) with sensationalist stories were widely read, sometimes inventing or reporting what we might call paranormal or Fortean subjects such as vampires or Spring-heeled Jack:
Spring-heeled Jack is a bit like a Marvel comics villain.
As well as his 'superpower' to make extraordinary jumps (allowing him to surprise his victims and escape capture),
Many of our ideas about mediums and seances come from the Fox sisters, starting around 1848
(Wikipedia Mediumship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship, Fox sisters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters).
For maybe the first time, many people would be aware that forces that perhaps they didn't completely understand could be harnessed by technology- who would've thought that coal, used to heat the homes of the poor who can't afford wood, could power a locomotive or a trans-Atlantic steamship (SS Great Western from 1838)?
Electricity was being investigated: Developed in the 1830s, by 1861 electromagnetic telegraph linked the West and east coasts of the USA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraphy
(Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus is published in 1818, with a gothic take on electricity, surgery and biology).
Gas street lighting, first used in 1806, was in widespread use by the mid 1820s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lighting.
From 1804, the Jacquard loom with its punched-card 'programs' showed that automated processes could replace skilled workers. Science might open the door to strange worlds (Jules Verne's From the Earth to the Moon was published in 1861).
Educated people would be aware that science and technology was progressing in their lifetimes, and that they wouldn't be able to understand all of it. They would know that other peoples held different beliefs, and some of the sureties provided by the churches had less influence; German scholars demonstrated that there were problems with literal interpretations of some parts of the Bible, On the Origin of Species was published in 1859 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species.
So around the 1850s there are people aware of the physical existence of unseen forces, technological progress and the (reported) beliefs of other cultures, who are also exposed to stories of the supernatural and the claims of Spiritualism.
Perhaps less reassured by the explanations of the church, distanced to some degree from their own folklore by industrialisation/ migration, and not fully understanding the science of the day (or its gaps- psychology and anthropology were in their infancy) many people of the 1850s were nevertheless freer than ever before to publicly discuss, and read and write about, strange topics.
I'm suggesting Steve Mera's "New Player", which he titles "The Other", isn't an objective, external strange phenomenon.
But his 1850s dating might correlate well with the first believers in such phenomena, outside of the religious or folkloric realm.
"The Other" is "Believers".
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mm. There's only one living primate that regularly walks upright (that we know of!)
The femoral heads sit snuggly in appropriately sized sockets, the acetabula (singular, acetabulum).
Human pelvic X-rays:
I think there's been discussion about the mummies' hip joint elsewhere in the thread, but didn't spot it on a quick flick-through.
However, the constructed artefact referred to as Josefina doesn't have similar ball and socket articulation at its representation of a femoral-pelvic joint
External Quote:
Maybe the 1850s or thereabouts coincide with early widespread consumption of printed ghost stories and gothic novels, coupled with (in some European countries, USA, Canada, Australia, NZ etc.) some awareness of religious/ folk beliefs and extraordinary tales- snake charmers, "the Indian rope trick", communing with ancestors, traditional 'cryptids'- from other parts of the world or held by indigenous peoples in places where Europeans had settled.
"Penny dreadfuls" (and dime novels in the US) with sensationalist stories were widely read, sometimes inventing or reporting what we might call paranormal or Fortean subjects such as vampires or Spring-heeled Jack:
Wikipedia, Penny dreadful https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penny_dreadful.External Quote:
Spring-heeled Jack is a bit like a Marvel comics villain.
As well as his 'superpower' to make extraordinary jumps (allowing him to surprise his victims and escape capture),
Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring-heeled_JackExternal Quote:
Many of our ideas about mediums and seances come from the Fox sisters, starting around 1848
(Wikipedia Mediumship https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship, Fox sisters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_sisters).
For maybe the first time, many people would be aware that forces that perhaps they didn't completely understand could be harnessed by technology- who would've thought that coal, used to heat the homes of the poor who can't afford wood, could power a locomotive or a trans-Atlantic steamship (SS Great Western from 1838)?
Electricity was being investigated: Developed in the 1830s, by 1861 electromagnetic telegraph linked the West and east coasts of the USA, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraphy
(Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus is published in 1818, with a gothic take on electricity, surgery and biology).
Gas street lighting, first used in 1806, was in widespread use by the mid 1820s https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_lighting.
From 1804, the Jacquard loom with its punched-card 'programs' showed that automated processes could replace skilled workers. Science might open the door to strange worlds (Jules Verne's From the Earth to the Moon was published in 1861).
Educated people would be aware that science and technology was progressing in their lifetimes, and that they wouldn't be able to understand all of it. They would know that other peoples held different beliefs, and some of the sureties provided by the churches had less influence; German scholars demonstrated that there were problems with literal interpretations of some parts of the Bible, On the Origin of Species was published in 1859 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species.
So around the 1850s there are people aware of the physical existence of unseen forces, technological progress and the (reported) beliefs of other cultures, who are also exposed to stories of the supernatural and the claims of Spiritualism.
Perhaps less reassured by the explanations of the church, distanced to some degree from their own folklore by industrialisation/ migration, and not fully understanding the science of the day (or its gaps- psychology and anthropology were in their infancy) many people of the 1850s were nevertheless freer than ever before to publicly discuss, and read and write about, strange topics.
I'm suggesting Steve Mera's "New Player", which he titles "The Other", isn't an objective, external strange phenomenon.
But his 1850s dating might correlate well with the first believers in such phenomena, outside of the religious or folkloric realm.
"The Other" is "Believers".
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mm. There's only one living primate that regularly walks upright (that we know of!)
The femoral heads sit snuggly in appropriately sized sockets, the acetabula (singular, acetabulum).
Human pelvic X-rays:
I think there's been discussion about the mummies' hip joint elsewhere in the thread, but didn't spot it on a quick flick-through.
However, the constructed artefact referred to as Josefina doesn't have similar ball and socket articulation at its representation of a femoral-pelvic joint
JMartJr
Senior Member.
..and has the distal end of one "femur" broken off to make the bones the same length... and...
It can't be stressed strongly enough how much is wrong with these things, what obvious and clumsy fakes they are, especially now as there seems to be another round of interest in them in some circles online
Last edited:
Edward Current
Senior Member.
I just have to laugh at the idea that suddenly an organism would show up on the phylogenetic tree with three phalanges, no pelvic joints, etc., etc.
THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS
THAT'S NOT HOW IT WORKS
Last edited:
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
Mera and his associate from the Birmingham UFO group went to Peru and wrote up a preliminary report for Phenomena magazine #99, July 2017, in which they expressed excitement about the Nazca mummies find. They seemed keen to believe they were real.
After a second visit, their second report for Phenomena (#112, Aug 2018) went through the research results including DNA (indicating Maria has DNA from two individuals), the info they gleaned about the "sinister production line" in Palpa (25mi from Nazca) where they believe these mummies are being made, and the obfuscation by the team "studying" the mummies.
Source: Phenomena #112, Aug 2018
It's a wordy article and the video above does a better job explaining their experience. They reversed their initial impressions and are now convinced it's all a hoax. The video was made as a presentation for a UFO group in 2023.
So: Yes, it's fair to question Mera's expertise and biases, but in this case the results from DNA and scans are obvious to anyone with passing familiarity with biology.
Here are the two covers.
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
And it's impossible to get the average layman mummy-believer to understand why this is the case.
Maria (one of the larger mummies) has no calcaneal tuberosity and her Achilles tendon is apparently and necessarily attached to the talus. The Alien Project (official website) had a slide show all about it, but at some point after Nov 2023 it was removed. (I found it via Wayback Machine). The later mummies have a normal (human) heel and tendon attachment. They also have 4 phalanges in the hand instead of Maria's 5. Try explaining to someone that these differences in anatomy mean Maria is a different species from the other mummies. No, apparently it's just an alien thing that some members of the species have 4 phalanges and human heels and a human gait, and others have 5 phalanges and fall over when they walk.
Source: Wayback Machine snapshot of this page, which no longer includes the slides or any mention of Maria's odd feet (suggesting her odd gait).
John J.
Senior Member.
Oh, totally, I'm in absolute agreement that there's overwhelming evidence from many sources that the mummies are gaffs of probable recent construction, and are horrendously constructed (and probably unethically constructed as well).
I posted the human hip images and a 'Josefina' X-ray so Rosalind can consider her friend's opinion
We are the only existing primates who routinely travel any great distance bipedally/ walking upright, so the friend's choice of words is strange.
JMartJr
Senior Member.
I'd take it further, that is a level of significant difference that would indicate a different Genus, at least!
Charlie Wiser
Senior Member.
But it's alien, so anything goes.
Just the "fact" that the small mummies and the large mummies both have tridactyl feet and hands leads mummy enthusiasts to lump them together as somehow related. Almost-fully-human 5-foot creature is related to a 2-foot-tall humanoid creature with "reptile" skin, eggs, llama-like skull, and no moving jaw. Other than the bizarre coincidence that the limb bones of the small ones look like human baby bones, these two "species" are separated by 200 million years of evolution.
Source: Britannica
Similar threads
