Aerial Cloud Seeding and Weather Modification [Not Chemtrails]

betamonk

Member
Whether or not this is a common source of persistent contrails, I am not sure. However, I do feel relatively safe saying that the source of at least some "chemtrails" is aerial cloud seeding and weather modification. Cloud seeding and weather modification in general have been used for decades for various purposes, and this is no hidden fact. I wouldn't venture to call it a conspiracy theory. It just is what it is. Aerial cloud seeding and weather modification occur through various means, using various chemicals (silver iodide and dry ice are common ingredients). I don't claim to know the long term health or environmental effects of this. I am just throwing it out there as a source of debate.

Here are a few links to companies that specialize in this:

http://www.siriaviation.com/index.php/products-and-services/cloud-seeding

http://www.weathermodification.com/cloud-seeding-aerial.php

http://www.dri.edu/cloudseeding

Aerial chemical dispersion is also used for other things from time to time, including insect control. After Hurricane Floyd ravaged eastern NC in 1999, aerial insecticide spraying was conducted using Sumithrin, Malothian, Resmethrin, and Naled. This spraying was conducted over 4 million acres in 35 counties (approximately 1/10th of the total acreage in the state). Again, I don't claim to know what the long term implications are from a health and environmental perspective. However, Phenothrin (same thing as Sumithrin) has been discontinued as an ingredient in flea and tick products for pets due to health concerns for the animals. It is considered a neuropoisin that can damage the kidneys and liver. Malothian and Naled are organophosphates, which are generally considered highly toxic, with Naled apparently being considered the worse of the two. Additionally, studies have shown that Malothian is a common cause of insecticide related illness (Of the 133 reported cases of pesticide-related illness, 95 (71.4%) cases were associated with organophosphates, primarily malathion).

http://www.iaff.org/hs/disasterrelief/resources/AerialSpraying.pdf

I'm sure aerial spraying is used for other purposes not covered here. These are just the purposes that I know of off the top of my head. Again, I don't claim to know the long term health or environmental effects of any of this. I am just saying that aerial spraying does in fact occur for various reasons. I don't think any of it is being done directly for nefarious purposes, however, there may be evidence that some of this may not be completely safe.
 

Attachments

SR1419

Senior Member.
Except...cloud seeding doesn't take place at high altitudes where one finds supposed "chemtrails" at....and cloud seeding is not delivered from high altitude jets (small planes at lower altitudes) and cloud seeding doesn't leave visible, persistent trails....

So, why do you suggest that "some" chemtrails are from cloud seeding?

cloud seeding take place in already existing clouds clouds- they burn flares of silver iodide to enhance precipitation (or mitigate hail) not to make clouds.

 

betamonk

Member
Except...cloud seeding doesn't take place at high altitudes where one finds supposed "chemtrails" at....and cloud seeding is not delivered from high altitude jets (small planes at lower altitudes) and cloud seeding doesn't leave visible, persistent trails....

So, why do you suggest that "some" chemtrails are from cloud seeding?

cloud seeding take place in already existing clouds clouds- they burn flares of silver iodide to enhance precipitation (or mitigate hail) not to make clouds.
seeding can happen up to about 20k feet. but, your point still stands that it's unlikely for a "chemtrail" to originate from cloud seeding. the point of the op is to say that, yes, airplanes do drop chemicals for various purposes, and some of it may not be entirely healthy. is it possible that some chemtrails are not actually contrails? i would say it's not impossible for there to be a difference between the two and that chemtrails do exist (although i would say that it's extremely unlikely that all, or even a majority of reported chemtrails are anything other than a contrail). but, as demonstrated in the op, chemicals are dumped out of planes, and it doesn't necessarily have to create a chemtrail at high altitude to possibly be problematic.
 

Rico

Senior Member.
I live in a place that does active cloud seeding in the summer and has been for a long time. I even know some of the pilots who do it, and they work for one of the listed companies above. I'm not sure what evidence there are of this practice being unsafe or otherwise detrimental to long term health, but I would assume that if there were any obvious indicators, there would be a lot of people flocking towards clinics and hospitals, which doesn't seem to be the case. So in that regard, it can't be that bad.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
i would say it's not impossible for there to be a difference between the two and that chemtrails do exist (although i would say that it's extremely unlikely that all, or even a majority of reported chemtrails are anything other than a contrail)
Can you even provide one example of a "reported chemtrail" that you suspect is not a contrail?
 

SR1419

Senior Member.
. is it possible that some chemtrails are not actually contrails? i would say it's not impossible for there to be a difference between the two and that chemtrails do exist (although i would say that it's extremely unlikely that all, or even a majority of reported chemtrails are anything other than a contrail). but, as demonstrated in the op, chemicals are dumped out of planes, and it doesn't necessarily have to create a chemtrail at high altitude to possibly be problematic.
No- its not "impossible" but there is no evidence that its currently the case.

Yes, chemicals can be sprayed from aircraft.

BUT- they very premise of the "chemtrail" theory is that is that the long, persistent trails people see are "chemtrails" because contrails never persisted and do not persist and spread and thus the only conclusion is that its a "chemtrail".

That is demonstrably false.

The "chemtrail" theory is based on an entirely false premise.
 

betamonk

Member
I live in a place that does active cloud seeding in the summer and has been for a long time. I even know some of the pilots who do it, and they work for one of the listed companies above. I'm not sure what evidence there are of this practice being unsafe or otherwise detrimental to long term health, but I would assume that if there were any obvious indicators, there would be a lot of people flocking towards clinics and hospitals, which doesn't seem to be the case. So in that regard, it can't be that bad.
contact with silver iodide has been known to cause argyria in pilots messing with the stuff. concentrations due to cloud seeding in air, water and soil are measurable. those concentrations are currently below recognized thresholds for toxicity, but is it possible this could change in the future as silver iodide accumulates, or if cloud seeding frequency increases?


http://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+2930

aside from the cloud seeding, and i explained above, planes dump chemicals out for various purposes, including insecticides. im not talking about small scale crop dusting at a few feet above ground level, but large scale spraying at a few thousand feet with chemicals that are known to be dangerous.

again, my point isn't necessarily to prove or disprove chemtrails. my point is simply that, chemtrail or not, planes dump stuff out that can be dangerous.
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
Three points: that video could have been awesome without the opening cheesy flyovers and "high speed" breakouts. Secondly, there is no way I could do that! Anybody catch the hail damage on the cowling? Thirdly, I'm not convinced that cloud seeding does any good. The people who sell the service can show examples of success and the people who buy the service selectively see the results they paid for OR the counties and states that buy the service can then say, hey, we did what we could. Sorry your crops are dead.
 

betamonk

Member
Can you even provide one example of a "reported chemtrail" that you suspect is not a contrail?
i dont see what that would accomplish. it's a highly subjective exercise to examine a picture and say i think it's this or that.

how about a different approach? here is a patent for hughes aircraft company. im not saying this has likely been implemented on a large scale. but, im also not denying the possibility that it has been experimented with on a relatively small scale. i think this would technically fall under the umbrella of geoengineering rather than cloud seeding.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
i dont see what that would accomplish. it's a highly subjective exercise to examine a picture and say i think it's this or that.
No it's not. If there are differences, then you can point it out. It's not like people gen an uneasy feeling about a particular trail. They say it looks different to a contrail.

Are you aware of any such thing?
 

betamonk

Member
No it's not. If there are differences, then you can point it out. It's not like people gen an uneasy feeling about a particular trail. They say it looks different to a contrail.

Are you aware of any such thing?
what i perceive as a difference you may perceive as a similarity. it's most definitely a subjective exercise.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
what i perceive as a difference you may perceive as a similarity. it's most definitely a subjective exercise.
But we are talking about measurable quantities here. Color. Length. Persistence. Spread. Those are not subjective.

What would be an example of a subjective difference in trails?
 

betamonk

Member
But we are talking about measurable quantities here. Color. Length. Persistence. Spread. Those are not subjective.
What would be an example of a subjective difference in trails?
length, persistence, spread aren't really discernible from a photograph, and any conversation about that would most definitely be subjective. however, i have seen contrails from planes flying within a few thousand feet of the same altitude all day long and one out of 50 planes in the lineup throughout the day had a distinctly different contrail.

any comment on the patent? it pretty clearly shows intent and ability to do something that could lead to a chemtrail.

besides, like i've said numerous times, the intent of the op wasn't to try to prove or disprove chemtrails. the point is that, yes, planes dump dangerous things out. it doesn't matter if it's a chemtrail or not.


eta: to my point about discernible attributes of a photograph. you mentioned how long it persisted, length, and spread. examine the photograph below. how long is that contrail? how long has it persisted? how wide is it?

pers3.jpg
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
length, persistence, spread aren't really discernible from a photograph, and any conversation about that would most definitely be subjective. however, i have seen contrails from planes flying within a few thousand feet of the same altitude all day long and one out of 50 planes in the lineup throughout the day had a distinctly different contrail.
The one that's flying through an ice-supersaturated region.

In what way would you say it was "distinctly different"? Use subjective terms if you like.

any comment on the patent? it pretty clearly shows intent and ability to do something that could lead to a chemtrail.
It's a speculative geoengineering patent. There's no evidence it's in use. It's a powder, so you could easily see it being spread with close up photos of the plane. It would not leave a very long trail, and it would quickly dissipate, not spread.

besides, like i've said numerous times, the intent of the op wasn't to try to prove or disprove chemtrails. the point is that, yes, planes dump dangerous things out. it doesn't matter if it's a chemtrail or not.
What's the point of pointing that out? It's obvious and nobody has ever disputed it.


eta: to my point about discernible attributes of a photograph. you mentioned how long it persisted, length, and spread. examine the photograph below. how long is that contrail? how long has it persisted? how wide is it?

View attachment 2135
Time: about 3-10 minutes (something you can obviously measure when you are there, but also you can make an objective comparison with other trails. ) Obviously the left is newer than the right.

Width: that age contrail is about 5-10 times the wingspan of the plane. Depends on the plane. Maybe 1000 to 2000 feet. It can develop to several miles. You CAN measure this if you can see what type of plane it was, and use a bit of geometry.

Length: around 100,000 feet, or 18 miles long based on it being 2000 feet wide. But I'd give a range of 10 to 30 miles, as there are a lot of unknowns.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
contact with silver iodide has been known to cause argyria in pilots messing with the stuff. concentrations due to cloud seeding in air, water and soil are measurable.
Can you give a reference showing that concentrations due to cloud seeding in air, water, and soil are measurable?

betamonk said:
aside from the cloud seeding, and i explained above, planes dump chemicals out for various purposes, including insecticides. im not talking about small scale crop dusting at a few feet above ground level, but large scale spraying at a few thousand feet with chemicals that are known to be dangerous.
Can you give an example of pesticide spraying that is done from a few thousand feet?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Betamonk,

It sort of loses the plot when chemtrail advocates begin pointing away from their original premise and towards things that are completely different like cloud seeding or pest spraying. You could, in fact, define a chemtrail down to a hang glider breaking wind from his arse if you wanted to really lose the plot, for example.

It doesn't really do anyone any good to water down a good conspiracy theory that way, and I find that when it is done it is a last dying gasp of belief before the person admits there really is no good evidence for chemtrails. Hope that's where you are at!
 

M Bornong

Senior Member.
http://fightthebite.blogspot.com/2007/08/mosquito-spray-seems-to-work-none.html

Belfrey, when West Nile Virus was first detected in Bakersfield, CA in 2007. Pyrethrin was sprayed over the entire city from planes flying at several thousand feet. I'm having trouble finding more info on it at this time. At that time, I was a "Chemtrail" believer, and I thought there might be a connection. I did shoot some video of the flyovers, but I don't remember what I did with it right at the moment.
 

Belfrey

Senior Member.
http://fightthebite.blogspot.com/2007/08/mosquito-spray-seems-to-work-none.html

Belfrey, when West Nile Virus was first detected in Bakersfield, CA in 2007. Pyrethrin was sprayed over the entire city from planes flying at several thousand feet. I'm having trouble finding more info on it at this time. At that time, I was a "Chemtrail" believer, and I thought there might be a connection. I did shoot some video of the flyovers, but I don't remember what I did with it right at the moment.
Nothing about the altitude in that article. Aerial mosquito spraying is obviously done, it's the "several thousand feet" part that I'm interested in.
 

pseacraft

Active Member
The Cypriot Forestry Service, they own 2 water bombers (standard crop dusters), in conjunction with the city governments of Larnaca and Limassol and the UK Sovereign Base here in Cyprus just did a few weekends of aerial spraying in the early morning for mossies here...they were no were near the 1000' mark. They were flying much lower since the higher you are the less effective it is from dissipation.
 

captfitch

Senior Member.
When they were spraying for west Nile here in dallas they had to cancel several night's worth because the wind was over the equivalent of around 10 knots. Seems targeted aerial spraying is hard!
 

rezn8d

Jim Lee
Why not agree with the OP and tell him that persistent contrails are inadvertent cloud-seeding?
http://www.terraforminginc.com/operation-clarity-the-end-of-chemtrails/
 

MikeC

Closed Account
contact with silver iodide has been known to cause argyria in pilots messing with the stuff.

Do you have a source for this??

I do not think pilots would be "messing with the stuff" - it comes in prepackaged candles that do not require anyone to actually contact the silver, so they would have to unpackage it and essentially eat it over a period of time to suffer argyria!!

concentrations due to cloud seeding in air, water and soil are measurable.
Where do you get that from?

My research into literature found exactly the opposite -

- from here. It also notes similar failure to find any evidence of "cloud seeding silver" in Spain and Greece
 

MikeC

Closed Account
Nice effort to set yourself up as the "honest broker" - but labelling Metabunk as somehow dishonest because it "doesn't tell the whole truth" or similar isn't quite honest IMO.

Why would Metabunk be in the business of telling people everything they need to know about pollution? Metabunk is about debunking - saying it isn't presenting a balanced view is disingenuous - there are plenty of sites around the 'net that will tell you all about pollution - aviation and otherwise.

By your criteria your site is not being honest because it does not tell people how aircraft fly!
 

rezn8d

Jim Lee

MikeC

Closed Account
Why mention hole punch and canal clouds at all in relation to cloud seeding or weather modification?

That link to inadvertent cloud seeding makes no mention of aircraft contrails at all - it talks about ship trails affecting marine stratocumulus - did I miss something??
 

Met Watch

Moderator
Why mention hole punch and canal clouds at all in relation to cloud seeding or weather modification?

That link to inadvertent cloud seeding makes no mention of aircraft contrails at all - it talks about ship trails affecting marine stratocumulus - did I miss something??
No, you didn't. Jim, is there any specific point in the 22 minute video presentation that mentions aircraft contrails that I may have missed?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Jim Lee said:
The Weather Modification Association met at the 18th Conference on Planned and Inadvertent Weather Modification, Thursday, 27 January 2011, and discussed how aviation creates hole-punch and canal clouds, and how persistent contrails contribute to inadvertent cloud-seeding.
Jim, hole punch and canal clouds are dying clouds, they are clouds which existed before an airplane flew through them and after the passage, the cloud is diminished. The hole punches are not due to anything introduced into the air by the aircraft, just a pressure difference across the wings or propellers.

They are both rather rare occurrences and wouldn't be significant enough to be defined as weather modification".

Your link #3 above which you call "how.. persistent contrails contribute to inadvertent cloud-seeding" is about low level clouds which form over some very specific places on the ocean which are inadvertently modified by SHIP SMOKE STACKS, NOT AIRPLANE CONTRAILS.

The abstract reads:

Marine stratocumulus cloud decks off the west coast of continents provide an ideal environment for using cloud seeding—inadvertent and intentional--to address basic science questions concerning aerosol-cloud-precipitation interactions. Marine stratocumulus systems are often associated with relatively slowly evolving synoptic and surface conditions. Thus point, line, or area sources of aerosols that are introduced into these cloud systems can produce cloud signatures that can be compared with steady conditions in the surrounding clouds. In some cases, causes and effect experiments are possible. Cloud modifications of two types have been considered. The first is a brightening of clouds associated with increases in CCN as cloud water is distributed among smaller droplets than those in the environment and possible increases in liquid water path (LWP) as increased aerosols reduce precipitation efficiency relative to that in the environment. The possibility that enhanced evaporation of cloud droplets near cloud top may also play a role in the modification process has also been considered. The second type of modification involves increasing precipitation efficiency by introducing giant CCN into clouds that are susceptible for modification. One complication that affects the interpretation of stratocumulus seeding experiments is that mesoscale structure in the form of closed and open cells can complicate the resulting response of the clouds to aerosol perturbations. Further, natural cloud-aerosol-interaction process may mask the variability associated with seeding sources.
In this presentation an assessment of our current knowledge and understanding of marine stratocumulus modifications associated with ship emissions (ship tracks) and coastal sources of aerosols will be made. Recent attempts at intentionally seeding marine stratocumulus clouds—true cause and effect experiments-- will be discussed and followed by an evaluation of proposals for seeding marine stratocumulus clouds for science process studies and for possible modification of the Earth's climate.
Debunked, or get ready to debate why not.
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
Why mention hole punch and canal clouds at all in relation to cloud seeding or weather modification?

That link to inadvertent cloud seeding makes no mention of aircraft contrails at all - it talks about ship trails affecting marine stratocumulus - did I miss something??
Really, Jim, either you just made a mistake here or you are deliberately stretching the truth here till it screams. Seeing you put this here leads me to conclude it was likely a mistake. You should change your site to reflect what we have shown. If accuracy is what you are looking for......
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Some years ago, I was in either northern OK or southern Kansas and I say a small fire trigger a cloud. It was out in the country and most likely someone's trash fire. We watched the smoke from it trigger the formation of a small cumulus cloud. It was neat to watch
 

rezn8d

Jim Lee
Jim, hole punch and canal clouds are dying clouds, they are clouds which existed before an airplane flew through them and after the passage, the cloud is diminished. The hole punches are not due to anything introduced into the air by the aircraft, just a pressure difference across the wings or propellers.

They are both rather rare occurrences and wouldn't be significant enough to be defined as weather modification".

Your link #3 above which you call "how.. persistent contrails contribute to inadvertent cloud-seeding" is about low level clouds which form over some very specific places on the ocean which are inadvertently modified by SHIP SMOKE STACKS, NOT AIRPLANE CONTRAILS.

The abstract reads:



Debunked, or get ready to debate why not.
odd that you are claiming to have just debunked my article, when clearly you posted a comment on the article, and did not seem to disagree or debunk anything, rather you seem to endorse exactly what I did
 

rezn8d

Jim Lee
Really, Jim, either you just made a mistake here or you are deliberately stretching the truth here till it screams. Seeing you put this here leads me to conclude it was likely a mistake. You should change your site to reflect what we have shown. If accuracy is what you are looking for......
carbon black and ice crystals are CCN... c'mon man this is basic...
 

Ross Marsden

Senior Member.
carbon black and ice crystals are CCN... c'mon man this is basic...
Absolutely NOT.

Carbon black and ice crystals are NOT cloud condensation nuclei! They are, however, ice nuclei, abbreviated IN.

Come on man! This is basic. How can you make a mistake like that? Was it a mistake, or do you just not know? Eh?
 

Jay Reynolds

Senior Member.
odd that you are claiming to have just debunked my article, when clearly you posted a comment on the article, and did not seem to disagree or debunk anything, rather you seem to endorse exactly what I did
Jim, I don't always have time to scour your website and get all the bunk out. In my comment I was hoping to encourage you. Now that these particular bits of bunk have been pointed out for which you have no response, I expect you to get rid of it. Perhaps some time I will get around to nitpicking everything, but your conspiracy cohorts put out so much bunk that doing so is difficult.

Suggestion:
Before you take the time to publish another web page full of weather related bunk you need to take, at a minimum, a basic college level class in meteorology. Learn as much as you can and ask questions of your professors. If you do, you will actually become the first chemtrail believer in human history to have done so.

You'll probably save yourself and many others a lot of time and worry. And you won't believe in chemtrails anymore.
 
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