9/11: Hijackers still alive?

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Sorry, when someone says: when no one has previously mentioned Satan, merely the tea... I deduce they believe in Satan and are inferring that the previously mentioned tea takers are in cahoots with him or maybe being punished, perhaps by not getting their tea.

That is an understandable and popular misconception which is apparently not true... Shock horror. Many are alive and well as documented here:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm

There is much more on this if you want to research it.

I believe you'll find that that news story, like others in the weeks directly after 9/11 was simply finding people with the same name. The BBC says:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html

A five-year-old story from our archive has been the subject of some recent editorial discussion here. The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. This confusion was widely reported and was also acknowledged by the FBI.The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.
We later reported on the list of hijackers, thereby superseding the earlier report. In the intervening years we have also reported in detail on the investigation into the attacks, the 9/11 commission and its report.
We’ve carried the full report, executive summary and main findings and, as part of the recent fifth anniversary coverage, a detailed guide to what’s known about what happened on the day. But conspiracy theories have persisted. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names.
In an effort to make this clearer, we have made one small change to the original story. Under the FBI picture of Waleed al Shehri we have added the words "A man called Waleed Al Shehri..." to make it as clear as possible that there was confusion over the identity. The rest of the story remains as it was in the archive as a record of the situation at the time.
We recently asked the FBI for a statement, and this is, as things stand, the closest thing we have to a definitive view: The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers.
Content from External Source
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
I believe you'll find that that news story, like others in the weeks directly after 9/11 was simply finding people with the same name. The BBC says:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html

A five-year-old story from our archive has been the subject of some recent editorial discussion here. The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. This confusion was widely reported and was also acknowledged by the FBI.The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.
We later reported on the list of hijackers, thereby superseding the earlier report. In the intervening years we have also reported in detail on the investigation into the attacks, the 9/11 commission and its report.
We’ve carried the full report, executive summary and main findings and, as part of the recent fifth anniversary coverage, a detailed guide to what’s known about what happened on the day. But conspiracy theories have persisted. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names.
In an effort to make this clearer, we have made one small change to the original story. Under the FBI picture of Waleed al Shehri we have added the words "A man called Waleed Al Shehri..." to make it as clear as possible that there was confusion over the identity. The rest of the story remains as it was in the archive as a record of the situation at the time.
We recently asked the FBI for a statement, and this is, as things stand, the closest thing we have to a definitive view:
The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers.
Content from External Source

So it took them five years, (Friday, 27 October 2006) to address the issue and when you click the link:later reported on the list of hijackers you get:
Friday, 5 October, 2001 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1581063.stm

There is no direct evidence in the public domain linking Osama Bin Laden to the 11 September attacks.

At best the evidence is circumstantial.

Of this, perhaps the strongest leads are the alleged financial transfers between an al-Qaeda operative and the man alleged to have led the hijackers

Content from External Source
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waleed_al-Shehri


waleed al shehri

This is the BBC five year on update showing the "alleged" terrorists

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/guides/456900/456983/html/nn1page1.stm




For more convolution see

http://www.911myths.com/html/waleed_al-shehri_still_alive.html

and

http://welfarestate.com/911/
[h=2]Tracking the 19 Hijackers
What are they up to now?
At least 9 of them survived 9/11

[/h]
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
No, people with the same name are still alive.

And it did not take them five years to address it, as they noted they produced a new story in a few days:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1581063.stm

All the Hijackers have wikipedia pages, any confusion regarding if they are alive are dead is addressed in them.

Don't you think if they actually WERE alive then that would expose the entire thing as a conspiracy?
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
One thing to remember is that there are less names used in Islam than we are used to. It is closer to the medieval period in Europe when everyone had to take a saint's name. I fact, even today, when you are confirmed in the Catholic church you are asked to take a saint's name. So in the church, Katherine is my name
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Don't you think if they actually WERE alive then that would expose the entire thing as a conspiracy?

I wouldn't think a little thing like that would make any difference whatsoever... most people don't even know wtc7 collapsed or that there is no substantive evidence, (let alone proof), that OBL had any direct involvement with 9/11.

America seems more like the land of the sheep and the home of the frightened than the land of the free and the home of the brave... unfortunately it appears not to be confined to the U.S.

Perhaps we can take the 'hijackers' one at a time and try to determine what the truth really is;

Is this man alive or dead? Was he a Hijacker or not? If not, who was?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulaziz_al-Omari

Controversy over Omari's identity erupted shortly after the attacks. At first, the FBI had named Abdul Rahman al-Omari, a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines, as the pilot of Flight 11. It was quickly shown that this person was still alive, and the FBI issued an apology. It was also quickly determined that Mohamed Atta was the pilot among the hijackers. The FBI then named Abdulaziz al-Omari as a hijacker.

A man with the same name as those given by the FBI turned up alive in Saudi Arabia, saying that he had studied at the University of Denver and his passport was stolen there in 1995. The name, origin, birth date, and occupation were released by the FBI, but the picture was not of him. "I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list", he said. "They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this."[8][9][10]
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http://guardian.150m.com/september-eleven/hijackers-alive.htm

Abdul Aziz Al-Omari (Flight 11) (Trained Pilot)

The identities of two men with the same name have been cobbled together to create an FBI "terrorist". Both are Alive!

The first has the same name, the same birth date as one of the FBI "terrorists" but has no idea how to fly.

The second has the name Abdul Rahman Al-Omari and a different birth date, but is the person pictured by the FBI and is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines.

Here are some quotes from the world's media concerning them.

Omari Number 1

"A Saudi man has reported to authorities that he is the real Abdul Aziz Al-Omari, and claims his passport was stolen in 1995 while he studied electrical engineering at the University of Denver. Al-Omari says he informed police of the theft." - ABCNews

"I couldn't believe it when the FBI put me on their list. They gave my name and my date of birth, but I am not a suicide bomber. I am here. I am alive. I have no idea how to fly a plane. I had nothing to do with this." - Telegraph 23rd September 2001

"The name (listed by the FBI) is my name and the birth date is the same as mine, but I am not the one who bombed the World Trade Center in New York," Abdul Aziz Al-Omari told the London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper.

"Al-Omari has since been found in Saudi Arabia and is apparently cleared in the case" - New York Times

"Saudi Embassy officials in Washington have challenged his identity. They say a Saudi electrical engineer named Abdul Aziz Al-Omari had his passport and other papers stolen in 1996 in Denver when he was a student and reported the theft to police there at the time." - BBC

"Abdel Aziz Al-Omari and Saïd Hussein Gharamallah Al-Ghamdi, are well in life, the first in Saudi Arabia and the second in Tunisia for nine months." - Wal Fadjri 21st September 2001 (translate)

Omari Number 2

Mr. Al-Omari, a pilot with Saudi Airlines, walked into the US embassy in Jeddah to demand why he was being reported as a dead hijacker in the American media.

"Abdul Aziz Al-Omari is a pilot for Saudi Arabian Airlines" - BBC 23rd September 2001

"A pilot with Saudi Airlines, was astonished to find himself accused of hijacking * as well as being dead * and has visited the US consulate in Jeddah to demand an explanation." - Independent 17th September 2001

This Al-Omari lives with his wife and four children in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia.
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Cairenn

Senior Member.
There are at least 9 Robert Brownings listed on FaceBook, does that mean that the poet Robert Browning is still alive? Maybe there was a conspiracy to cover up his death.

There are over 25 folks on Linked In with my given name---One time I was checking some of them, and found out that 3 different ones share uncommon hobbies with me.

Many folks SHARE the same day. DUH
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
There are at least 9 Robert Brownings listed on FaceBook, does that mean that the poet Robert Browning is still alive? Maybe there was a conspiracy to cover up his death.

There are over 25 folks on Linked In with my given name---One time I was checking some of them, and found out that 3 different ones share uncommon hobbies with me.

Many folks SHARE the same day. DUH

Yes there are many people who share my name as well but if one was shown in the worldwide media as a terrorist who had died, I would feel no compulsion to jump up and say... 'No no, I am still alive and I didn't do it'... unless they were showing my picture or otherwise conclusively asserting it was me.

To me, it shows the unreliability of evidence produced.

To date this has still not been resolved... unless someone here knows better... in which case I am more than happy to be corrected.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
They were asserting that the pilot did it. Why wouldn't you point out that YOU are innocent?

I have seen multiple cases of folks coming forward and pointing out that THEY are not the criminal of the same name
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Yes there are many people who share my name as well but if one was shown in the worldwide media as a terrorist who had died, I would feel no compulsion to jump up and say... 'No no, I am still alive and I didn't do it'... unless they were showing my picture or otherwise conclusively asserting it was me.

To me, it shows the unreliability of evidence produced.

To date this has still not been resolved... unless someone here knows better... in which case I am more than happy to be corrected.

What's to resolve? There was some confusion about people with the same name TWO WEEKS after the attack, and then nothing beyond this initial confusion for twelve years?
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
What's to resolve? There was some confusion about people with the same name TWO WEEKS after the attack, and then nothing beyond this initial confusion for twelve years?

If you can definitively show there is no confusion I would appreciate it.

i.e. is Abdul Aziz Al-Omari, still alive? Did someone steal his identity? If so what was that person's real identity. Why was the photo of the real (live) Omari, spread all over the world media?

Like I said... it is not only names... these people did not jump up and say 'here I am, I didn't do it', simply on the basis of a name.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
If you can definitively show there is no confusion I would appreciate it.

i.e. is Abdul Aziz Al-Omari, still alive? Did someone steal his identity? If so what was that person's real identity. Why was the photo of the real (live) Omari, spread all over the world media?

Like I said... it is not only names... these people did not jump up and say 'here I am, I didn't do it', simply on the basis of a name.

The initial confusion still remains to some degree. But all it is is the details of his life are unclear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulaziz_al-Omari

The people denying they did it were people who had been identified purely on the basis of a name.

Surely the identity of most of the hijackers is perfectly clear now? What does it matter if you don't know every detail of the life of one of them? He still came from Saudi Arabia, attended the flight school, and was on the plane when it flew into the North Tower. He's just some guy, a suicidal jihadist.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
The initial confusion still remains to some degree. But all it is is the details of his life are unclear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdulaziz_al-Omari

The people denying they did it were people who had been identified purely on the basis of a name.

Surely the identity of most of the hijackers is perfectly clear now? What does it matter if you don't know every detail of the life of one of them? He still came from Saudi Arabia, attended the flight school, and was on the plane when it flew into the North Tower. He's just some guy, a suicidal jihadist.

I suggested we get to the bottom of one hijackers identity and randomly picked Omari.

There are up to 9 out of the 19 identities which have been queried. After my best efforts I cannot ascertain what the truth of the matter is.

Earlier, you posted:
Originally Posted by Mick

Don't you think if they actually WERE alive then that would expose the entire thing as a conspiracy?

Have you now changed your mind?
 
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Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I suggested we get to the bottom of one hijackers identity and randomly picked Omari.

There are up to 9 out of the 19 identities which have been queried. After my best efforts I cannot ascertain what the truth of the matter is.

Earlier, you posted:


Have you now changed your mind?

Changed my mind? No. I don't think they are sill alive. I think the background of Omari is not clear. I think if the FBI had clearly identified someone, and was continuing to do so, and that exact person (not just someone with the same name) was still alive, then it would raise serious questions. If lots of them were still alive, then that would be very suspicious.

But there's really nothing here other than the initial confusion with people of the same names, and the absence of a highly detailed life story for every hijacker - which I would not expect anyway.
 

Oxymoron

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Banned
Changed my mind? No. I don't think they are sill alive. I think the background of Omari is not clear. I think if the FBI had clearly identified someone, and was continuing to do so, and that exact person (not just someone with the same name) was still alive, then it would raise serious questions. If lots of them were still alive, then that would be very suspicious.

But there's really nothing here other than the initial confusion with people of the same names, and the absence of a highly detailed life story for every hijacker - which I would not expect anyway.

Ok, guess you can't debunk the undebunkable.

Suppose I and millions of others will have to carry on believing they are still alive and the FBI can't be bothered to show different. If the FBI and you think it's sufficient to post a few pictures and names and create some facebook pages and take no notice of 9 out of 19 people saying 'no no I am not dead', then that's that. The CT will go on.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
Ok, guess you can't debunk the undebunkable.

Suppose I and millions of others will have to carry on believing they are still alive and the FBI can't be bothered to show different. If the FBI and you think it's sufficient to post a few pictures and names and create some facebook pages and take no notice of 9 out of 19 people saying 'no no I am not dead', then that's that. The CT will go on.

Who was saying "no no I am not dead" after the initial misidentification of people with the same name?
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
There is a debunking on this over here: http://conspiracies.skepticproject.com/blog/33/wiki-911-hijackers-still-alive/

I think it is worth a look, very interesting.

Yes very interesting and some of the links are very interesting as well and could be used to open up many knew speculative theories also.

The problem is, where do these pictures originate. Is it the media sourcing them incorrectly or do they get the pictures from government sources. It seems that is where the confusion lays.

Here is news footage which is so wrong on many levels. Is it just 'really bad reporting', or part of the hype designed to engender patriotic zeal for retaliation, tailored to fit an agenda.



According to Wikipedia, Mohammed Atta was on trial in 2008 :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_bin_al-Shibh#Capture_and_detention
The judge presiding over the commission's pre-trial motions ordered bin al-Shibh and Mustafa al-Hawsawi to undergo mental competency hearings. On December 8, 2008, Mohammed Atta told the judge that he and the other four men who had been indicted wished to confess and plead guilty; however, the plea would be delayed until after the competency hearings for bin al-Shibh and Hawsawi. All five men wanted to make their pleas together.[35]
Content from External Source
This guy is likely one of the planners but there is a lot of hidden stuff around what is happening here.
Ramzi bin al-Shibh (Arabic: رمزي بن الشيبة‎, Ramzī bin ash-Shībah; also transliterated as bin al-Shaibah) (born May 1, 1972[2]) is a Yemen citizen being held by the United States as an enemy combatant detainee at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. He is accused of being a "key facilitator for the September 11 attacks" in 2001 in the United States.[3]



On January 17, 2002, the FBI published the first Most Wanted Terrorists Seeking Information list (now known as the FBI's "Seeking Information - War on Terrorism" list). They identified the five wanted terrorists, about whom little was known but who were suspected of plotting additional terrorist attacks in martyrdom operations.[18] (see current version displaying photos of five terrorists on the remaining martyrdom videos FBI list, as of June 2006)[19] Ramzi bin al-Shibh was one of the four men among the five whose names were known.


Bin al-Shibh was captured in Pakistan on September 11, 2002, after a gun battle in Karachi with the Pakistani ISI and the CIA's Special Activities Division.[23] On September 14, 2002 he was transferred to the United States. CIA agents transported him by extraordinary rendition to a secret black site in Morocco for interrogation. The CIA admitted in August 2010 that it has video tapes of these interrogations.[24][25][26]
His profile was removed from the FBI Seeking Information wanted list by October 17, 2002.[27] Bin al-Shibh was held by the U.S. at an undisclosed CIA-led location until September 2006. On September 6, 2006 U.S. President George W. Bush announced that bin al-Shibh and thirteen other CIA-held, high-value detainees had been transferred to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.



Content from External Source

http://emptywheel.firedoglake.com/2...pes-altered-like-the-abu-zubaydah-tapes-were/


The CIA has tapes of 9/11 plotter Ramzi Binalshibh being interrogated in a secret overseas prison. Discovered under a desk, the recordings could provide an unparalleled look at how foreign governments aided the U.S. in holding and questioning suspected terrorists.The two videotapes and one audiotape are believed to be the only remaining recordings made within the clandestine prison system.

[snip]
When the CIA destroyed its cache of 92 videos of two other al-Qaida operatives, Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Nashiri, being waterboarded in 2005, officials believed they had wiped away all of the agency’s interrogation footage. But in 2007, a staffer discovered a box tucked under a desk in the CIA’s Counterterrorism Center and pulled out the Binalshibh tapes.

[snip]
The CIA first publicly hinted at the existence of the Binalshibh tapes in 2007 in a letter to U.S. District Judge Leonie M. Brinkema in Virginia. The government twice denied having such tapes, and recanted once they were discovered. But the government blacked out Binalshibh’s name from a public copy of the letter. [my emphasis]


Content from External Source
Here is a very interesting Al Jazeera interview with Binalshibh.

 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Slightly off topic but I think related as he was named as the 20th highjacker.

http://www.theworld.org/2013/02/911-trial-ransacking/
Feb 15th 2013
Some light was shed Thursday on the apparent “ransacking” of legal materials from defendants in the 9/11 trial. Lt. Commander George A. Massucco, assistant to the Staff Judge Advocate at Guantanamo Bay, produced the materials, which he said were seized as part of Standard Operating Procedures to maintain safety at the prison facility.
Massucco testified that some of the materials had been confiscated because they were improperly stamped. Legal mail is marked with a stamp when approved, but the stamps need to be dated and initialed, markings which were missing from some of the documents. He said other materials were seized because they “were disturbing,” and the staff was “concerned for safety reasons” the material would remain in cell.
Content from External Source
There was one area of solid progress in court today. All sides agreed to the removal of microphones made to look like smoke detectors that had been installed in rooms used by defense lawyers to meet with the accused. “The sooner, the better,” Judge James Pohl said. “That would’ve been my low-tech solution anyway.”
Content from External Source
LOL :)

Here is another take on it.

http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/20...madness-of-the-military-commissions/#comments

Despite the fact that the “War on Terror” was launched over eight years ago to pursue those responsible for the 9/11 attacks, and despite the fact that Attorney General Eric Holder noted, in a statement announcing the trial, that the opportunity for the relatives of the 9/11 victims “to see the alleged plotters of those attacks held accountable in court” had been “too long delayed,” Republican critics immediately leapt on the announcement, with Senate minority leader Mitch McConnell describing it as “a step backwards for the security of our country” that “puts Americans unnecessarily at risk.”

McConnell, former Vice President Dick Cheney and others who have spent most of the year shamelessly playing the fear card about bringing Guantánamo prisoners to the US mainland to face trials ought to be ashamed of themselves, as there is no reason to delay justice any longer in the case of these men, and every reason to decry the fact that, instead of being prosecuted shortly after their capture, they were diverted into a lawless program of incommunicado detention and torture that threatened to derail the possibility that they could be brought to justice at all.
In the case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, for example, the decision to prosecute him in a federal court comes over six years late. Despite having confessed to his involvement in the 9/11 attacks to an al-Jazeera reporter before his capture by US forces in March 2003, he was held for three and a half years in secret prisons run by the CIA, where he was subjected to torture (including waterboarding, a form of controlled drowning), in a violent and misguided attempt to secure “actionable intelligence.” Instead of achieving its desired result, this vile program appears to have prevented no actual planned terrorist attack, and led only to the generation of countless false leads, which wasted the resources of the intelligence services, and also, of course, led to the creation of a global network of secret prisons in which, distressingly, torture only begat more torture.

Content from External Source
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
Wikipedia is subject to have misinformation being posted. Recently, there was some political post that claimed a certain person was Democrat and they used a Wikipedia link to prove this. However, when one checked the legislator list for that state, he was a Republican. Checking his own bio, showed he had been active in Republican party activities since college. (He said or did something very objectionable).

There is a good reason that Wikipedia is not considered a suitable source for academic papers. Heck, even the hobby group I am in, does not consider a good source. It can be a starting point. The older the subject, and the less controversial, the better. I would not worry a lot about the info it shows for Queen Elizabeth I, as I would for info on Queen Elizabeth II
 

Oxymoron

Banned
Banned
Wikipedia is subject to have misinformation being posted. Recently, there was some political post that claimed a certain person was Democrat and they used a Wikipedia link to prove this. However, when one checked the legislator list for that state, he was a Republican. Checking his own bio, showed he had been active in Republican party activities since college. (He said or did something very objectionable).

There is a good reason that Wikipedia is not considered a suitable source for academic papers. Heck, even the hobby group I am in, does not consider a good source. It can be a starting point. The older the subject, and the less controversial, the better. I would not worry a lot about the info it shows for Queen Elizabeth I, as I would for info on Queen Elizabeth II

It should have been Khalid Sheikh Mohammed,
 

Lost World

New Member
No, people with the same name are still alive.

And it did not take them five years to address it, as they noted they produced a new story in a few days:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1581063.stm

All the Hijackers have wikipedia pages, any confusion regarding if they are alive are dead is addressed in them.

Don't you think if they actually WERE alive then that would expose the entire thing as a conspiracy?

Not necessarily. There could be a perfectly rational explantion for for it. I'm not sure what it would be, but I expect it's of similar magnitiude to the BBC and Reuters reporting the collapse of WT7 25 minutes before the event. The explanation for that was that "It was a very confusing day" I expect there's a perfectly rational explantion also for Mohamed Atta's passport being found virtually unscathed in the rubble after the entire plane had been incinerated. These things happen. Apparently. Astonoshing coincidences occur all the time. How did the hi-jackers know that the air defences over the Pentagon would be deactivated that day, due to the multiple anti terror drills that were going on at the time? Were they told, or did they just get lucky? I could go on..

My point is, and apologies if I sound a little sarcastic is that sometimes things just don't add up. It doesn't always equate to a conspiracy, but applying the principle of Occams razor to these events, I can't help but think that the official line to what happened that day is actually more convoluted than SOME of the conspiracy theories around it.

I also don't regard Wikipedia as a consistently trustworthy source of information. Anyone with any number of potential agendas could post those pages, and the routine of requesting citation and verification seems to be in the hands of Google admin (correct me if I'm wrong) and they are hardly the most ethical of corporations going by how they duck and dive and avoid their tax responsibilities.
 

Cairenn

Senior Member.
It is often informative to read the discussion about an article. Check out the one for Corexit, for example. The last time I looked at it, it had several mistakes in it.
 

Jazzy

Closed Account
Wikipedia is subject to have misinformation being posted. Recently, there was some political post that claimed a certain person was Democrat and they used a Wikipedia link to prove this. However, when one checked the legislator list for that state, he was a Republican. Checking his own bio, showed he had been active in Republican party activities since college. (He said or did something very objectionable).

There is a good reason that Wikipedia is not considered a suitable source for academic papers. Heck, even the hobby group I am in, does not consider a good source. It can be a starting point. The older the subject, and the less controversial, the better. I would not worry a lot about the info it shows for Queen Elizabeth I, as I would for info on Queen Elizabeth II
One should always go for alternate references. WIKI is a good source for those.

It has made directly- and indirectly-accessible an impressive body of available knowledge (at least in the fields I am involved with, Engineering, Maths, Physics, Chemistry), and is itself a medium of exchange for competing ideas, which is good, so I'm inclined personally not to knock it.
 

Soulfly

Banned
Banned
Just to put into perspective on the size and how much explosives one would need to destroy each tower. The towers were so big each one had its own zip code. 10047 and 10048.
 

jvnk08

Senior Member.
Just to put into perspective on the size and how much explosives one would need to destroy each tower. The towers were so big each one had its own zip code. 10047 and 10048.

Just to be pedantic, there is no established size for zipcodes. Some places have multiple zipcodes all to themselves. Zone Improvement Plan codes were designed to help mail to get somewhere faster, particularly important for places that receive a lot of mail.

But yes, they were quite large buildings :) just look at images of the memorials in comparison to people. Absolutely huge buildings.
 

Mick West

Administrator
Staff member
I expect there's a perfectly rational explantion also for Mohamed Atta's passport being found virtually unscathed in the rubble after the entire plane had been incinerated.

Yes there is. He was in the front of the plane. The front of the plane was ripped to shreds. There was a huge explosion. The blast wave would push some debris out of the building. The passport was part of that.

Several IDs of passengers on the planes were recovered, and they were not even in the cockpit. Several bits of paper from the planes were found.
 

Soulfly

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Just to be pedantic, there is no established size for zipcodes. Some places have multiple zipcodes all to themselves. Zone Improvement Plan codes were designed to help mail to get somewhere faster, particularly important for places that receive a lot of mail.

But yes, they were quite large buildings :) just look at images of the memorials in comparison to people. Absolutely huge buildings.
True, just giving a perspective. Manhattan's land area is 22.96 sq miles and there are 41 zip codes. That gives an ave size of .56 sq miles per zip code. An avg block size in Manhattan is 250 by 600 feet, each floor in a tower was 50,000 sq ft. That comes out to 73.33 blocks for both towers if each floor was a single story building.
 

izz

New Member
I believe you'll find that that news story, like others in the weeks directly after 9/11 was simply finding people with the same name. The BBC says:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/theeditors/2006/10/911_conspiracy_theory_1.html

A five-year-old story from our archive has been the subject of some recent editorial discussion here. The story, written in the immediate aftermath of the 9/11 attacks, was about confusion at the time surrounding the names and identities of some of the hijackers. This confusion was widely reported and was also acknowledged by the FBI.The story has been cited ever since by some as evidence that the 9/11 attacks were part of a US government conspiracy.
We later reported on the list of hijackers, thereby superseding the earlier report. In the intervening years we have also reported in detail on the investigation into the attacks, the 9/11 commission and its report.
We’ve carried the full report, executive summary and main findings and, as part of the recent fifth anniversary coverage, a detailed guide to what’s known about what happened on the day. But conspiracy theories have persisted. The confusion over names and identities we reported back in 2001 may have arisen because these were common Arabic and Islamic names.
In an effort to make this clearer, we have made one small change to the original story. Under the FBI picture of Waleed al Shehri we have added the words "A man called Waleed Al Shehri..." to make it as clear as possible that there was confusion over the identity. The rest of the story remains as it was in the archive as a record of the situation at the time.
We recently asked the FBI for a statement, and this is, as things stand, the closest thing we have to a definitive view:
The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers.
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Quote: "I believe you'll find that that news story, like others in the weeks directly after 9/11 was simply finding people with the same name."

Ah.. yes. So true. But only if you ignore the fact 9 of the alleged hijackers in total have wanted to know why and how their photos, names and date of births were all part of the same information too. But of course 9 men being upset about just having the same names is also very plausible. Sweet. Thanks for that clearing that up for people. This site is truly amazing!

And your right. Think about it. Something like that would expose the whole operation if it were true. Probably why American news never bothers with such rubbish. Again. Great job pointing to that obvious tidbit. Amazingly done!
 
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Oystein

Senior Member
One thing to remember is that there are less names used in Islam than we are used to. It is closer to the medieval period in Europe when everyone had to take a saint's name. I fact, even today, when you are confirmed in the Catholic church you are asked to take a saint's name. So in the church, Katherine is my name
To put this into practical perspective:

I am currently working extensively on my family tree, which is very much helped by the fact that, for the region where almost all my father's ancestors are from, the Latter Days Saints have birth, marriage and death certificates online pretty much completely for the entire 19th century, and up to about 1910.

The women's names are
Anna, Barbara, Catharina, Elisabetha, Franziska, Helena, Johanna, Josephina, Magdalena, Margaretha, Maria, Regina, Susanna.
These 13 names account for 97% of all first and seconds names.
The men's names are:
Baptist, Caspar, Gottfried, Heinrich, Hubert, Johann, Joseph, Leonard, Martin, Mathias, Nicolas, Michel, Peter, Wilhelm.
These 14 names account for 97% of all first and second names.

It not at all unusual for a married couple to have 5 daughters named Anna Maria, Anna Margaretha, Susanna Margaretha and again Anna Maria. (Sometimes, the first Anna Maria had died and they did a second version, sometimes they actually would have wo children with the exact same name!).


There was more variety on the family names though.

In Arabic lands, both first and last names still today have less variability.
 

Ph_

Closed Account
To put this into practical perspective:

I am currently working extensively on my family tree, which is very much helped by the fact that, for the region where almost all my father's ancestors are from, the Latter Days Saints have birth, marriage and death certificates online pretty much completely for the entire 19th century, and up to about 1910.

The women's names are
Anna, Barbara, Catharina, Elisabetha, Franziska, Helena, Johanna, Josephina, Magdalena, Margaretha, Maria, Regina, Susanna.
These 13 names account for 97% of all first and seconds names.
The men's names are:
Baptist, Caspar, Gottfried, Heinrich, Hubert, Johann, Joseph, Leonard, Martin, Mathias, Nicolas, Michel, Peter, Wilhelm.
These 14 names account for 97% of all first and second names.

It not at all unusual for a married couple to have 5 daughters named Anna Maria, Anna Margaretha, Susanna Margaretha and again Anna Maria. (Sometimes, the first Anna Maria had died and they did a second version, sometimes they actually would have wo children with the exact same name!).


There was more variety on the family names though.

In Arabic lands, both first and last names still today have less variability.

In Catholicism it is also common to reuse the first name of your fathers. (or mothers first name if you are a girl.)
My 3 first names for instance are the first names of my great grandfather, my father and my grandfather
For 2nd and more children it becomes a varation.
This reusing of names in our family goes back to before 1600.

http://www.genealogy.com/articles/research/35_donna.html


Naming Patterns
You will often see the same names used over and over again in families. While certain names are popular in different areas in different times in history, the repetition could represent a pattern. Many cultures believe in honoring their elders and do so by naming children after them. Angus Baxter in "In Search of Your British and Irish Roots" describes a pattern that was popular in England in the 1700-1875 period:

  • The first son was named after the father's father
  • The second son was named after the mother's father
  • The third son was named after the father
  • The fourth son was named after the father's eldest brother
  • The first daughter after the mother's mother
  • The second daughter after the father's mother
  • The third daughter after the mother
  • The fourth daughter after the mother's eldest sister
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darrenr

Member
I have quite an unusual name. Only one other person comes up when I put it into Google and he's a doctor in Massachusetts and no relation. A few years ago, when I first joined Facebook an American chap contacted me to find out if was the same guy he knew at University in Portsmouth (the one in Hampshire, England). As it happened, I did go to Portsmouth University back in the late 1980's, but back then it was still a Polytechnic. I looked at the American chap's Facebook page and he was 12 years younger than me so would have still been in school when I attended Portsmouth Poly. I initially thought it may have been some sort of scam but after exchanging a few messages with him I realised he was entirely on the level. Which means that someone with the same unusual name as me attended the same University over a decade later.

So, coincidences happen in our culture where we have literally thousands of names to choose from. How much more likely must they be in cultures where there are only a small number of names to choose from?
 
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Nada Truther

Active Member
So, coincidences happen in our culture where we have literally thousands of names to choose from. How much more likely must they be in cultures where there are only a small number of names to choose from?

I graduated from high school with a guy with my same name. Same first, last and middle initial; different middle name, but both J. He did in a car accident back in the 90's. If you were to google his name, his home city, his high school that he graduated fro, and his graduation year in an attempt to contact him, you might get to me. I am not him, yet all of the search criteria is correct. But, he is, sadly no longer with us. The fact that I still am, doesn't mean that he is still alive.

It is amazing that this is still a topic on this, as it has easily been proven that the whole "same name" phenomena can easily explain why these terrorists are "still alive".
 

Redwood

Active Member
When my father lived in the little town of Boring, Oregon, there was another person by the same name who owned a dairy. Not only that, they both had brothers with the same name. Dad was always getting calls asking about milk.
 
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