1. Henk001

    Henk001 Active Member

    South of the equator when you are looking south at the southern night sky you always see the same point in the sky: the south celestial pole. Therefore the lines of sight must be parallel.
    Three examples
    Sydney, Australia (notice the Sydney Opera House on the left)
    Image Source: http://www.rc.au.net/blog/2012/06/26/kirribilli-sydney-harbour-trails/
    From Re├║nion
    From ESO, Chili
    So, instead of this
    We must assume this

    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2017
    • Like Like x 3
    • Winner Winner x 3
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Constellatons North vs South .

    In the norther hemisphere even the most casual observer is generally familiar with at least one constellation: Ursa Major, the Great Bear, aka "The Big Dipper" in the US or "The Plough" in the UK. People are also generally familiar with Polaris, the Pole Star or North star. You might even remember that the last two stars of Ursa Major point at Polaris, and Polaris is always within a degree of true north, so quite useful for navigation.

    Far fewer people in the northern hemisphere are familiar with the appearance of the skies in the Southern Hemisphere. This is a likely explanation as to why most successful flat earth promoters are in the Northern Hemisphere.

    In the Southern Hemisphere there's no easy equivalent of Polaris, as the southern celestial pole (the point at which all the stars seem to rotate about) is in a region of the sky with few bright stars. There is however an equivalent of Ursa Major, the constellation known as Crux, or more commonly The Southern Cross. Crux give us a similar useful locating tool for the southern celestial pole, as the longer arms of the cross point towards the pole.

    Another thing that people in the North don't often think about is that in the South the stars seem to rotate clockwise around the celestial south pole, whereas in the North they rotate counter-clockwise.

    This all creates an excellent demonstration of the shape of the Earth.

    Consider two places on the globe, Sydney in Australia and Santiago in Chile (any similar locations will do). Now in the southern winter the nights are long, just before sunrise in Sydney the sun has set in Santiago. If people in both places look South (i.e. away from the North Pole) at the same time, then what do they see in the sky?

    Here's the view from Santiago. Crux is at the bottom.

    Here's the view from Sydney, at the exact same time!


    Clearly, despite looking in nearly exactly opposite direction (on a flat earth), we are actually looking at the same piece of sky. This is only possible if we are on a globe.
    Flat_earth views crux metabunk.

    This is inarguable proof that the Earth is not flat, so if you ever get into an argument with someone who claims to believe in the Flat Earth (and a lot of them, of course, are just trolling), then ask them to explain this problem first to save time.
    • Like Like x 4
    • Winner Winner x 4
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Another way of visualizing the Southern Celestial Pole is to take Star Trail images looking South. Here's one from Chile:
    Image Source: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:All_In_A_Spin_Star_trail.jpg

    And one from Australia (notice the Sydney Opera House on the left)
    Image Source: http://www.rc.au.net/blog/2012/06/26/kirribilli-sydney-harbour-trails/

    The centers of rotation in both images are due south. On the globe this is simply pointing towards the southern celestial pole. On a "Flat Earth" south is in totally opposite directions, yet somehow looking at the same thing.
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    You do not need to go to the Southern hemisphere to confirm the existence of the Southern Celestial Pole. Instead, you can point a camera southwards and take a long exposure shot or night time-lapse video to visualise the star trails and see that there is the opposite centre of rotation to the Northern Celestial Pole below the horizon, so the celestial axis connecting the two poles comes through the Earth at an angle, corresponding the latitude of the observer. Such an observation that any Flat Earther can do for themselves, demonstrates that Earth is surrounded by the "Celestial Sphere" rather than covered by a Sky dome.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Indeed, and you don't even need to be in the southern hemisphere to see the Southern Cross. You can see circling a point below the horizon from quite a ways north. Including Bangkok, home of Flat Earth promoter Eric Dubay.

  6. Amber Robot

    Amber Robot Member

    Basically, the flat earth proponents take a single observable, like "I can't see curvature", and based on that create a model that blatantly disagrees with a hundred other observables. They never seem to attempt to look at even the simplest calculations of the predictions of their model. Sigh...
  7. Astro

    Astro Active Member

    Here's a timelapse I took of the south celestial pole during a trip to South Africa last year:

    The stars are definitely moving clockwise around the south celestial pole, in direct contradiction to what a flat earth would predict.
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. dove779

    dove779 New Member

    Hello and thank you for this great forum. Personally, I find the view of the stars from the southern hemisphere to be the best globe earth proof. But is there a way I can find a proof, in the form of a clear, non edited picture or a video, of the southern cross and the rest of the southern celestial pole, that has been taken from Australia, South America, and South Africa? Even better - a proof that you can watch the southern cross from South America and South Africa at the same point in time? For some reason I could not find such proofs on a simple google search.
  9. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There's an indirect proof in that Stellarium has always been shown to match photos exactly for any given time and location. So you can just view from that location (and time) in Stellarium.

    The way to falsify this would be to demonstrate Stellarium does not match reality.

    A more zetetic proof is always going to rely on you trusting someone. I would suggest some kind of live stream between two flat earth believers who can stream what they see on their cameras at the same time.

    Unfortunately, there's not a lot of flat earth believers in the Southern hemisphere, for obvious reason.
  10. Movie Vertigo

    Movie Vertigo New Member

    I did just that in my latest video. Even though I'm 52 degrees north, you can still see the stars are rotating about the south celestial pole.

    There's also enough vertical field of view that you can see the celestial equator towards the top of the video, and above that a small section stars rotating about the north celestial pole.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Mad Lord Snapcase

    Mad Lord Snapcase New Member

    I took an all night time lapse looking south east from the west coast of New Zealand. It's not edited beyond placing all the individual photos in Windows Movie Maker and saving them as a video. It was my first attempt at doing this, so the quality is not great, but it's still clear enough to see the stars rotating clockwise followed by the sun rising in the east. I manually changed the exposure time on the camera as dawn approached, not in post processing.

    Source: https://youtu.be/cMTg3FZNZP0
    • Like Like x 7
  12. Enricks

    Enricks Member

    From ESO, Chili

    Just a side question: why are some trails in this pic in front of the building top?
  13. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    You can see some other ghosting around the observatory, particularly on the left side, and weird repeated shadows. Likely the observatory changed positions during the exposure.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  15. DavidB66

    DavidB66 New Member

    Just a word of warning on star trail time lapse photographs: some popular images on the internet, including several showing the south celestial pole with Sydney Opera House in the background, are composites. Searching Google Images for 'Sydney star trails', I would say at least half of the top twenty results are physically impossible, because the celestial pole is in the wrong place. Either it is too low in the sky, or it is not to the south of the viewpoint, or both. This one is a conspicuous example: http://www.flickriver.com/photos/wild_images/15283220928/
    Metabunk 2018-04-15 09-49-58.
    To be fair, the photographer describes it as 'Southern Hemisphere star trails stacked over a night image of the Sydney Opera House', so the use of the word 'stacked' might give a warning that it is a composite. I guess that any photographer wanting to take a striking image of Sydney will try to get its most familiar landmarks, the Harbour Bridge and the Opera House, in the picture somehow, even if it means throwing geography to the winds! Fortunately the picture showing star trails over the Opera House earlier in this thread does appear to be physically possible, though the photographer's blog describing his methods does imply there was a great deal of processing involved.
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 15, 2018
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    Even odder... it looks like there are interference patterns. I can't think of any reason for that.
  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Moire patterns, that's where they are strongest for Moire on concentric circles (made of square pixels). Take a pattern like this:
    Metabunk 2018-04-15 21-06-10.
    You can probably see the patterns just on the screen, especially as you scroll the image, but if you resample it, it's more apparent as a still image:
    Metabunk 2018-04-15 21-07-19.