The Satam al Suqami Passport

Bmead said:
To stay on topic- I am attempting to narrow down the passports resting place. Now i do understand both the fact we can't just assume anything but there must be a degree of feasibility.
Looking at this image

From the direction of wtc 7 is where we know the plane came. Now i believe the cop that had been handed the passport was walking up West street and into vesey where we believe the passport was handed in. As best as we can tell. Now what i am supposing is, that (and i will do my best to validate i am just positing it so if it is shot down for a particular reason i will know how to proceed)
The gap between 6 and 1 would not be where people would be walking ( i will be using images/testimony to try to veify this was even blocked or not possible to pass through) so the passport wouldn't be found there.
The same may be true of 3 and 1 especially as the 2nd tower had been hit at this time (we know because the cop said minutes after receiving passport the 2nd tower fell) so if there was debris falling between two towers the chances are at least the gaps between those places would be made inaccesable. And potentially other than evacuees no one would be allowed in the plaza.
Anyway i guess that is something i need to prove, what i can't find is did wtc 1 have entrances onto the plaza, onto west street or both?
And if i can demonstrate that people would not be allowed beteen 1 and 6 and 1/3/2 that we then can narrow the spot where the passport was found to the plaza/west street or vesey street.
Or will you insist that maybe someone slipped through a police barrier?
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The only known location of the cop is West and Albany:
 
Bmead said:
From the direction of wtc 7 is where we know the plane came. Now i believe the cop that had been handed the passport was walking up West street and into vesey where we believe the passport was handed in. As best as we can tell. Now what i am supposing is, that (and i will do my best to validate i am just positing it so if it is shot down for a particular reason i will know how to proceed)
The gap between 6 and 1 would not be where people would be walking ( i will be using images/testimony to try to veify this was even blocked or not possible to pass through) so the passport wouldn't be found there.
The same may be true of 3 and 1 especially as the 2nd tower had been hit at this time (we know because the cop said minutes after receiving passport the 2nd tower fell) so if there was debris falling between two towers the chances are at least the gaps between those places would be made inaccesable. And potentially other than evacuees no one would be allowed in the plaza.
Anyway i guess that is something i need to prove, what i can't find is did wtc 1 have entrances onto the plaza, onto west street or both?
And if i can demonstrate that people would not be allowed beteen 1 and 6 and 1/3/2 that we then can narrow the spot where the passport was found to the plaza/west street or vesey street.
Or will you insist that maybe someone slipped through a police barrier?
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I think this is just guessing. I don't know how many times you actually were at the WTC buildings before 9/11 or if you have ever visited the area, to speculate on where people would or would not likely have been coming from isn't even monday morning quarterbacking. Frankly it is just making things up. Unless the man comes forward himself or video surfaces of him handing something to a policeman, we will never know.
 
JRBids said:
I think this is just guessing. I don't know how many times you actually were at the WTC buildings before 9/11 or if you have ever visited the area, to speculate on where people would or would not likely have been coming from isn't even monday morning quarterbacking. Frankly it is just making things up. Unless the man comes forward himself or video surfaces of him handing something to a policeman, we will never know.
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I realise that and as i have NOT been there before i do not know, nor pretend to know everything. But the point i was making is it is NOT just guessing if for example between 1 and 6 as you see there is a smaller space than a whole street. It was the direction of impact, everyone acknowledges falling debris, so, if there was a police barrier to passing through there, then someone cannot have picked it up there, if there was only firemen and police in the plaza, and video can confirm where people could NOT be ie you cannot find a passport under a fire engine, so, if we documented within a time frame where certain vehicles are etc, it reduces the area the item could be (unless we assert that the person had the passport wandered around for a few hours THEN handed it in)
But this is why i asked. You assert i will be guessing, i say i will be doing laborious time consuming efforts to try to establish where something was. I may fail, but if six fire trucks 3 ambulances and seven cop cars were all stationary in an area for say two hours, then the ONLY way to get the passport if under them is to see it float down, and dive under the vehicle to go get it. If you are willing to say that is what happened then i would waste my time because that is an idea i would be guessing was entirely outlandish. If on the other hand we said the stationary vehicles and blocked paths are where it couldn't be, then we can narrow the final possible options
 
All that presupposes that the passport was picked up after such vehicles and restrictions arrived or were put in place.

Why must that be the case?
 
MikeC said:
All that presupposes that the passport was picked up after such vehicles and restrictions arrived or were put in place.

Why must that be the case?
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Not at all, it demands a timeframe, this is why i said it was a laborious task, but one i am willing to do. Firstly if it was found much earlier, then it would have to be handed in to another cop, or carried around for ages, if it was carried around then there is 0 justification to run off after handing it in as the person obviously had stayed in the locale. Also the report says he heard a plane rev up and then explosion which we take to be the second impact, however he then says that shortly after the passport is given the tower falls-What shortly is i would speculate is ten to twenty minutes but given even realistic speculation is forbidden, then the point is to identify vehicles that did not move between the second impact and the collapse of tower 2. Even vehicles that did not move since the first impact. And as i said, there may have been barricades. I will look to see. However if i can show there was restrictions on where people were allowed (often police do do this in dangerous areas) then you continue to assert "IF someone slipped by" and "IF they walked over the spot that was empty for 1 minute before another vehicle stopped there" or "IF they saw it float down an lunged for it"
Then your defence is based on if's and whilst probability is not fact it is a factor, it would be possible although improbable to suggest that the next response you have to me is (fxxx off) It would also be improbable to suggest that you will contact me and write me a cheque for $50,000 and i will cash it and it wont bounce. Of the 2, both are physically a possibility, but 1 has a far greater chance of occuring. So i think i'll pursue the angle, and then if plausible i'll provide the evidence for debunking.
Anyway, it is a slim hope i could lay the only place of being in 1 spot which ultimately is required. But i am just seeing how slim a chance.
 
Mick West said:
What spot is "required", and based on what?
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The spot required being -the spot the passport could only have been found.
By a process of elimination it could be arrived at.
As i said, and i have already seen some videos showing areas taped off but far too little footage to ascertain what road or place.
However were it revealed that from ten minutes after 1st plane impact until tower 2 fell, that there was cordoned areas in certain places and vehicles stayed on the spot for that time, it then means the passport cannot have been found in that place.
Well i say cannot but obviously you can turn around and say-If/possibly/maybe/could of been
But that will require more proof than just saying if/maybe/possibly - it needs some visual proof anyone did dive under a fire truck because they saw the passport float under it, or proof that people did slip between cordons just to endanger themselves
And ultimately, if the passport can be defined as having been in one or two spots only then we can look at whether it was possible to-
Now we have had the argument that "it happened therefore it was possible" but such things are not proper procedure. It wouldn't be done in a normal murder case.
 
MikeC said:
All that presupposes that the passport was picked up after such vehicles and restrictions arrived or were put in place.

Why must that be the case?
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And that he wasn't inside one of the buildings in the area where Bmead says he couldn't have come from because debris was falling, and then ran out.
 
JRBids said:
And that he wasn't inside one of the buildings in the area where Bmead says he couldn't have come from because debris was falling, and then ran out.
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Did i say that?
No, what i said was, identify where the item could not be. As you well know the majority of those coming out the building were getting the hell out or receiving attention. But it doesn't matter where the finder came from. If he came from the moon the passport still physically can't have been found on the roof of wtc 6 and then handed in because no one climbed on there. If he walked out of the wtc, the passport itself can't have appeared magically underneath a car parked there all day long.
THAT is what i am saying. And as yet i have many images and videos to go through, and waiting responses on persons who were there to inform me. But where the finder came from is irrelevant. After all, if we found that person and proved he came out an office onto vesey street but that was all we knew, you would still suggest he walked out of vesey onto another street found it and turned round and found the cop back where he came from.
Where it can be it can be but where it cant be it cant be no matter how many people came from anywhere
 
Seems like trying to prove the butterfly's wings over the ocean could not produce the breeze on your face.
Or something like that.
You're attempting to map chaos.

What is the significance?
 
Pete Tar said:
Seems like trying to prove the butterfly's wings over the ocean could not produce the breeze on your face.
Or something like that.
You're attempting to map chaos.

What is the significance?
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I suppose so. But it's impossible to explain. Not because i cannot but because it would take too long.
I will make it as short and simple as i can
I don't believe in coincidence when it's multiples, i don't believe in probabilities being defied over and over
I have seen the whistle blower lists, read so much spoken with professionals and seen many debunks.
This site so far is the best at trying to debunk specific items. And i cannot deny some rightness.
However overall when i take every single thing i know into account i am as convinced of a conspiracy in 9/11 as i am that i am not a robot
By which that does not mean Bush,Cheney etc but it similarly means not JUST 19 hijackers
Because of that i have 2 options
1 present an idea and be told i am wrong and say ok
2 present an idea to genuine debunkers trying without swearing and cursing to debunk, then, go and look at the holes they find.
Here, i see my holes exist solely in knowing where the passport was on discovery and on the plane
Defining those two points i think with some extra bits i am working on, define the piece in my mind satisfactorily
If i found myself correct then it has massive implications
If i find that i do all this and i shut myself down then that count FOR the official version, i won't lie to myself-
But i won't refuse to do some hard work because it is nitpicking or whatever, i apologise if this offends people as it seems to do. But i truly believe in it and ultimately it is a benefit to people like yourself. When i finish on the passport issue, then it will be one of 3 things
Either we are where we are now- Unable to conclusively prove anything more than it was found and handed in in seemingly too good to be true condition, but unable to prove conspiracy
Or, i prove it totally could not be where it was(if i prove where) and thus demonstrate a huge indicator of some conspiracy
Or, i shut down every angle and prove, it did come from the plane and there is no avenue for any conspiracy minded person to pursue this passport angle. Hence that issue becomes dead forever
 
Bmead said:
...
But i won't refuse to do some hard work because it is nitpicking or whatever, i apologise if this offends people as it seems to do.....
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Not at all offended, the effort you're putting in is admirable, it's just that from the sidelines, not having the urgent need you do, it seems a bit hard to understand.
I guess the idea that you can systematically eliminate and account for all the variables leading up to the event of the passport being found and handed in just doesn't seem possible.
But all luck to you.
 
Where was the plane seat photographed? presumably if it is from the same plane, I'm thinking thats around where the passport could have been found.
 
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We know where the policeman was when he was handed the passport. We don't know where it was found, other than most likely between there and the building. There is insufficient information to determine where it was found.

Things that are light, like a passport can flutter in the air.

It seems to me that you originally started off with the premise that it couldn't have gotten from the hijacker's pocket in the plane after it hit the building to being found outside the building before it fell.

Is that accurate?
 
Cairenn said:
We know where the policeman was when he was handed the passport. We don't know where it was found, other than most likely between there and the building. There is insufficient information to determine where it was found.

Things that are light, like a passport can flutter in the air.

It seems to me that you originally started off with the premise that it couldn't have gotten from the hijacker's pocket in the plane after it hit the building to being found outside the building before it fell.

Is that accurate?
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Yes, i personally still do not believe it got out of the building if it went in. But then i can't currently prove this.
I made a mistake in taking a single source i had seen saying it was found in Vesey street (which other sources say handed in there) and the fact that many random sources had said very little debris came out from wtc 1, added to the fact that the plane was more entrapped than the 2nd, we can see this in examining the videos and nists own data.

So essentially i factored the speed and length of the plane and obstacles likely struck and HAD to be struck. But apparently because one or two items got out i cannot assert something shouldn't, which seems fair. But the major point exists in where the passport was on and off the plane. On the plane, in a pocket is the worst place because it can't just leave a pocket, you can find an example of clothes being blown off a person, although that will be hard i imagine. But that requires explosion not impact, and unless you assert explosives in the plane that cannot be. But i need more hence this extra attention. You are correct that things flutter in the wind, but less so if it presents the wrong edge and pages stuck together and when the wind speeds of the day ranged between 8-12mph north east. Taking that and the fact we have to conclude on assuming any direction, of exit OTHER than backwards. Means it cannot have met a single resistance on its path. Becaise if it had then we must agree it would not exit the building at high speeds even, any impact is going to stop an object that light. So we can say that there was a set speed, for which it must be the minimum estimated of the plane (taken from nist/fema/fbi anyone you count as qualified to gauge the speed) then presupposing the passport passes through the building at that speed, and through a window and into a wind. That places a distance the item has to travel in one of three directions. This seems unimportant if i cannot pin down a definite location, but then if i can extrapolate a total distance and a range of places impossible for it to be, and find that there were multiple officers prior to the one who was given it. Then we have not such a puzzle after all. Because if it can be defined to have to have travelled 100 yards in any given direction, and places inside that radius are not possible for people or the passport to be, and are also thick with police, then we have to conclude that it was found and kept to be given to a particular officer, or was found in Vesey street. The logic dictates the latter but i would accept the former although i would be interested at the explanation of it
 
Bmead said:
Yes, i personally still do not believe it got out of the building if it went in. But then i can't currently prove this.
I made a mistake in taking a single source i had seen saying it was found in Vesey street (which other sources say handed in there) and the fact that many random sources had said very little debris came out from wtc 1, added to the fact that the plane was more entrapped than the 2nd, we can see this in examining the videos and nists own data.

So essentially i factored the speed and length of the plane and obstacles likely struck and HAD to be struck. But apparently because one or two items got out i cannot assert something shouldn't, which seems fair. But the major point exists in where the passport was on and off the plane. On the plane, in a pocket is the worst place because it can't just leave a pocket, you can find an example of clothes being blown off a person, although that will be hard i imagine. But that requires explosion not impact, and unless you assert explosives in the plane that cannot be. But i need more hence this extra attention. You are correct that things flutter in the wind, but less so if it presents the wrong edge and pages stuck together and when the wind speeds of the day ranged between 8-12mph north east. Taking that and the fact we have to conclude on assuming any direction, of exit OTHER than backwards. Means it cannot have met a single resistance on its path. Becaise if it had then we must agree it would not exit the building at high speeds even, any impact is going to stop an object that light. So we can say that there was a set speed, for which it must be the minimum estimated of the plane (taken from nist/fema/fbi anyone you count as qualified to gauge the speed) then presupposing the passport passes through the building at that speed, and through a window and into a wind. That places a distance the item has to travel in one of three directions. This seems unimportant if i cannot pin down a definite location, but then if i can extrapolate a total distance and a range of places impossible for it to be, and find that there were multiple officers prior to the one who was given it. Then we have not such a puzzle after all. Because if it can be defined to have to have travelled 100 yards in any given direction, and places inside that radius are not possible for people or the passport to be, and are also thick with police, then we have to conclude that it was found and kept to be given to a particular officer, or was found in Vesey street. The logic dictates the latter but i would accept the former although i would be interested at the explanation of it
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It could have been in a carry on bag, and when the plane knifed into the building it could have been split open and never even made it into the building.
 
Bmead said:
... But that requires explosion not impact, and unless you assert explosives in the plane that cannot be...
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There were explosions on impact weren't there?
Also how are you defining the force of impact versus the force of explosion?
Seems that impact would have had a lot of force.
I guess you mean an explosion would have produced a blast wave that would more likely rip clothes or wallets off a person.
 
Where did the passport finder come from? Had he been inside the building when the plane hit? Is his running away relevant? Was he running before he handed the item over, and had stopped just for that purpose before continuing? How long had it been in his possession? Was he the first person to handle it? Had someone given it to him?

No amount of research will answer these queries unless someone can uncover the identity of the "mystery" man. That's where to start, but I would surmise that plenty of people have failed in that endeavour already.
 
Melbury's Brick said:
No amount of research will answer these queries unless someone can uncover the identity of the "mystery" man. That's where to start, but I would surmise that plenty of people have failed in that endeavour already.
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Absolutely.

And that is one of the reasons that this subject has remained unresolved. It could be argued that if the finder was legit, and had indeed found it to hand it in, then at some stage he would have said that.

But it could then also be argued that because he hasn't done that, that suggests that he was an 'agent' who 'pretended' to find it in order to re-inforce the message of 'arab terrorists' very early into the media, and publics mind.

That, linked to its pristine condition, and survivabilty after being central to a massive impact and fireball, helps to build the mystery that @Bmead is trying to unravel.
 
There's a small (but not zero) probability that the finder is dead. Either from later events on that day, or just natural causes soon after. We have zero knowledge of where he went after the interaction with Yuk H. Chin.
 
There's a few points for me to answer
1) Defining explosion, yes i am referring not to impact, which could rip or tear but to the fuel tank rupture, because ripping and tearing could open a pocket or bag but in the case of a pocket, i would challenge anyone to produce a rip/tear that opens a pocket but prevents any damage to the contents, whereas a explosive force can blast clothes off in rare cases.
2) It is possible the passport dropped out before entry-In a narrow window
The calculations i made were as follows, although pointed out to me my image was possibly wrong i took the dimensions of the airplane that we all agree was used. Direct from boeing. I took the speed of 400mph (after looking at various speed estimates from various sources) I took the distance p/s. Then i also took a frame analysis of the second tower impact as side views are available. This gave me a time of nose in to tail in
Overall it seems to the best that i could ascertain, the entry time of the plane in wtc2 was not more than 1s. Taking the speed over distance and the length of the plane confirms the distance the plane would travel in 1s
Then i assumed 2 locations for the passport- 1 at his seat, 2 at the cockpit (assumption based on- 1) We are told his seat number ergo it is logical to assume where he sat was where he was given the seat and as such the locker nearest may hold the passport. But also in phone transcript, Ong, says they are up there now, they're in the cockpit- So assuming as we must, he is a hijacker that implies he is in there too.
The exact calculations and video analysis is free for anyone to check but i am not running through a piece by piece detailing simply because the totality of what i spent on the passport so far is 6 months on just this.
Also as i think i said before, i did drop tests on a old passport to see if, when the plane hit, if it was not in the cockpit, it could fall clear of the plane before fully immersed in the building. From the measurements and timings i got, if it was in the seat area but on the floor and the plane split open, it is just precisely possible to have happened,given the fall speeds i measured, however what it needs is that that instant of impact, the plane opens up and the passport drops.
So in the realms of doubtful but just possible, that means it retains the forwards momentum still and hits the tower itself and falling is subject to the fuel that falls as the wings hit. That means it has to then fall almost exactly below the impact zone because of a combination of wind, forward momentum, and additional downwards momentum of the fuel falling on it.

Which leads on to whether i can isolate the zone below impact as cordoned off or not

3) Current further investigation seems to suggest the plaza and directly beneath impact is NOT possible places. Simply due to police, ambulance, fire presence,
Albany street is where the seat was photographed and as was suggested that is a potential location.

But i am having difficulty getting clear images of any obstructions or blocked roads just snippets.

For the pristine survival debunk- that is not quite the same- what we see is mainly a large box of wtc workers items. A great debunk is find 1 other aa11 passport in half as good condition?
The best i explain is this, that most stuff was found after collapse and that what came out pre collapse in the main had some damage to it, and, if a desk stacked with papers is hit, only a few will be damaged a variety more will be smashed out a hole and spread everywhere.
Also pre collapse plenty jumpers may have lost items from their pockets.
Of the total, how many documents in equal condition (similar to passpoert not plastic cards or rings) Survived and were handed in pre collapse?
 
Bmead said:
Of the total, how many documents in equal condition (similar to passpoert not plastic cards or rings) Survived and were handed in pre collapse?
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Can you give an example of a document "similar to a passport"?

Remember passports are super valuable documents (to the individual), so if you see a passport lying in the street, then the overriding response is to pick it up - even in such a situation. There were probably lots of pieces of paper from the planes.
 
Mick West said:
More telling are the things that survived from Flight 93, as there was no collapse there, just a plane hitting the ground at 500 mph, with a huge explosion, and fireball. And yet there were several things recovered in "pristine" condition:

And less than pristine, even hijacker ids,


And fragile pieces of paper:
http://amhistory.si.edu/september11/collection/record.asp?ID=160
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Not sure about pentagon things because of the fact i have examined that in less detail. But i think i cannot offer comment relating back to this because i have no clue where they were found, the difference between impact walls, the conflagration, etc So i don't know if it is fairly compared or not. And i will say that i am not trying to say nothing would or should survive, nor even that nothing could survive intact.
Simply that from the look of it It is remarkable in condition, even as you said the "soaked in fuel" has to be contested because otherwise why are there no bleeding of ink visible? And not even bent, charred or ripped at all. But soon i'll be able to acquiesce or progress there are only so many images i can go through or find, and videos, so i'll see whether i can make a better case next week. If not then i have to leave it that as improbable as it may seem, it can only be classed as improbable but no more which proves nothing at the end of the day
 
Mick West said:
Can you give an example of a document "similar to a passport"?

Remember passports are super valuable documents (to the individual), so if you see a passport lying in the street, then the overriding response is to pick it up - even in such a situation. There were probably lots of pieces of paper from the planes.
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Well another passport, a sheaf of papers, a small book.
I mean from a comparitive view point, if someone says to me, look this metal plaque survived in pristine condition, or hey see this single bank card of a wtc worker.
What i wonder is, was there, before or after the collapse, any passports recovered of any passengers of the planes that struck the towers.
And is there any document of relative similarity in size or material, that is comparitive in it's immaculateness that also came from the plane.

This was one of my points regarding the chair that caused me further suspicion,
The chairs coverings are as with most seat coverings, slightly fire retardant to comply with regulations. Still it suffered burn damage.
 
Bmead said:
Not sure about pentagon things because of the fact i have examined that in less detail. But i think i cannot offer comment relating back to this because i have no clue where they were found, the difference between impact walls, the conflagration, etc So i don't know if it is fairly compared or not. And i will say that i am not trying to say nothing would or should survive, nor even that nothing could survive intact.
Simply that from the look of it It is remarkable in condition, even as you said the "soaked in fuel" has to be contested because otherwise why are there no bleeding of ink visible? And not even bent, charred or ripped at all. But soon i'll be able to acquiesce or progress there are only so many images i can go through or find, and videos, so i'll see whether i can make a better case next week. If not then i have to leave it that as improbable as it may seem, it can only be classed as improbable but no more which proves nothing at the end of the day
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Flight 93 is the Shankville plane which crashed into the ground, not the pentagon crash.
 
Sorry my mistake, that incident i would have plenty to say on, but iy would corrupt this thread.
I would say in the footage i am watching there are numerous streets empty as police send people away, even try to force press away. I am unable to define what streets but there is limited footage of directly near the towers, and it is necessary to seal off the area and move people back because of the need for vehicle access. People are being evacuated t steady speed on many streets. So really it needs a person familiar with the streets and to identify the evacuation routes, it is certainly visible of the streams of people saying about trampling and rushing away, and seeing them, that no one would have time on those streets to stop and pick up something, they would be trampled in seconds.

I think i need help and will seek it, but i think it looks even more of a remote chance the passport would be found anywhere other than albany or vesey. Because of the emptiness, colossal amount of debris and dust just from impact 1. And if you want an idea how much paper there could be in just a single office

wtcpaper.jpg
A plane smashing through that lot will release tons. But maybe people should look at the videos of the roads themselves, until i looked specifically for this, i didnt realise quite how many police, army, fire, medical vehicles and persons there were.
The absence of anyone in areas cordoned off, the presence of vehicles and the plentiful amount of police around suggest the likely finding place WAS where it was handed in, or very close. I think it is not quite the challenge i first thought. If i can find the right help, It can be easily shown that my assumption of cordoned areas is not false and there are vast areas where vehicles abound and nothing could be found and there are too many officers elsewhere to be missed. Unless as previously speculated it was being held for one special officer which is laughable.
 
I believe people were being evacuated from both towers right up until they collapsed. So he could quite easily have come out of one of the towers, and was leaving the area.
 
That is true, what i am seeing though is there were clear routes, many empty places that were cordoned off quite early, and along evacuation routes people moving at a speed that would prohibit (given the density of people) any stopping and picking up something. At least not without plenty crashing to the ground and being trampled. Which isn't to say that someone didn't at some stage find it en route to evacuation.
What it does suggest is that there are many places someone 1) Just could not be 2) A passport just could not be and 3) So many police that if the intent was hand in to nearest policeman, then they must have been nearer to the detective in question than not.

Of course i am just seeing things here without definition of what road/street. Nor do i know what direction evacuation is taking, so it could be someone was taken out the wtc, and saw something picked it up and the next available officer was in the said area.
Maybe if i was a new yorker i'd be able to say-that's xxx street and that is xxx street and thereby narrow down the list.
Unfortunately i seem to be finding more debunkers working together than truth movement. They all discuss things, but very few are sitting down and working evidence piece by piece. So i could be unable to nail it down.
 
@Bmead.

I am totally confused by your relentless search to nail down the final moments of a passport. To what end ? Lets say, that your forensic skills reveal that it was picked up exactly on the corner of Vesey and Church Street. Icing on that cake would be for the guy handing it in to tell you that. Then what? What you would have proved is that it was a genuine incident and no mystery. Thats all.

Most people who are concerned that there was some kind of 'inside involvement' in 9/11 see the passport incident as a very tiny indication that it was a managed event. That the passport was already in NY before any plane arrived, and was handed to an innocent policeman by an agent involved in the plot, so that it could be rapidly exhibited to the astonished masses as evidence that it was indeed those 'arab extremist terrorists' responsible.

If your aim is to totally debunk that theory then thats fine. But nailing it down to an exact location is anal in the extreme.
 
Hitstirrer said:
@Bmead.

I am totally confused by your relentless search to nail down the final moments of a passport. To what end ? Lets say, that your forensic skills reveal that it was picked up exactly on the corner of Vesey and Church Street. Icing on that cake would be for the guy handing it in to tell you that. Then what? What you would have proved is that it was a genuine incident and no mystery. Thats all.

Most people who are concerned that there was some kind of 'inside involvement' in 9/11 see the passport incident as a very tiny indication that it was a managed event. That the passport was already in NY before any plane arrived, and was handed to an innocent policeman by an agent involved in the plot, so that it could be rapidly exhibited to the astonished masses as evidence that it was indeed those 'arab extremist terrorists' responsible.

If your aim is to totally debunk that theory then thats fine. But nailing it down to an exact location is anal in the extreme.
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My reason is, i believe that subsequent to nailing down where it can't be found, i can define where it would have to be found. Now if it was provable that the only places it could be found was vesey street where i initially thought it could be, a few other parts i am working on, i think would come together to prove that physically that was a total impossibility.

But i can't say because it was handed in somewhere that it was found somewhere. So i have to be "anal" about it
Ironically no one is so concerned that this degree of detail is not done elsewhere. Nor do they insist on the same detail and proof of findings.

Off topic for a second, but i have seen the wtc 7 simulations permitted and thermal depictions of the fires and many debunks, but ultimately the building would not fall as it did (the walls would not stay as visible if a total internal collapse occurred) A proven period of freefall would necessarily have to be explained if it was a truther yet it was and then denied then admitted but NIST were not asked to explain the how or why. They were not asked what valid reason for classifying the only full proof of the conclusions.

But i know and you know if i said today- I have proof of........You and 99.9% of the forum will want video,proof,still images, documents, contact details of any who helped, calculations and results all workings, and NO suppositions. I will have to be airtight and even then, i will meet a challenge of
things like, "but who is to say the guy wasn't on the plane snatched the passport, jumped just as the plane hit, and rolled through a breaking window, made it down the stairs and then ran in fear an at last hand it in?"

Perhaps not quite so ludicrous, and some people here have been much fairer than other sites have but even so the majority will see any angle, so i MUST be anal about it.
And not to mention that if i was right, it needs to be, why do you think i come here? Not for any reason but to be faulted where it needs.
If i say something that can be torn apart in seconds then i would be stupid to put it in my final written work. If i present and then review based on what the criticism is, then i can see if i am wrong.
Then if i am correct i can add that to my work and hopeful, eventual publication, knowing full well that when it is read there will be no possibility to debunk the detail because it already was. And i will be publishing a case of No way a conspiracy occurred, or 100% someone was involved beyond a few Arabs
 
Mick West said:
More telling are the things that survived from Flight 93, as there was no collapse there, just a plane hitting the ground at 500 mph, with a huge explosion, and fireball. And yet there were several things recovered in "pristine" condition:
Click to expand...
Mick, what leads you to believe there was a huge explosion and fireball?
 
http://www.360cities.net/image/worl...-new-york-city-by-mark-fink#-662.41,0.94,70.0



This is just a start. And i have to name each street. However it demonstrates a few things
1) The actual wtc plaza itself there wouldn't be people walking between 1 and 3 as the gap is so small and it would be a dangerous option and despite any protestation to the contrary, people go for the nearest safe exit, which is the biggest gap which is highly visible.
2) All visible footage of the plaza shows it as deserted anyway (i am aware the first image is not a 9/11 image)
3) Video shows some streets devoid of any debris at all substantiating the initial assumption that there would be no passport that side (this is the west side face)
The plaza is easterly and wtc 3 is southerly, now as the chairseat was found in albany, south of wtc 3 the wind by visual reference appears to be faster than the 8-10mph weather sites suggest so it could aid the passport travelling the distance although there are many cops present before vesey or west street or church
And we can clearly see areas being roped off. This is not accounting for any parked vehicles. But the initial fire trucks (Naudet) and subsequent did not move,
This is not intended as a gospel proof but just demonstrative of the point. There are many more images an videos. And i still need to apply the physics to maximum distance the passport could travel.
But i think it will be a relatively easy job to identify that either side was not a possibility for the passport, due to the lack of debris or papers, lack of access and of course the damage to the tower on those sides being caused not directly by the plane but by displacement of structure by the planes and by windows being deliberately smashed for air circulation
So to exit the sides requires lateral movement which i fail to see where this force comes from,as, even the fuel tanks main force was on the outside. The debris visible on both sides of the impact, suggest by lack of or by type, and distance and accessibility that they are not viable locations. (In so far as the prior "walked out the towers and saw it" idea, please add the answer to why the man deliberately holds onto it past numerous officers? therefore the best bet so far is Albany.
 
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