The Ringmakers of Saturn

Hey all this is a classic theory that has been circulating the web for some time. The basic premises is made by a Dr. Norman Bergrun who believes to have observed spacecraft of some sort orbiting Saturn and making it's rings appear to be exhaust of some sort from the crafts... Really... Here is a page with some popular evidence or claims to an extent. If any of you have any info on this relatively old but still popular space theory and debunk the confusion it sure is helpful.

http://47797.activeboard.com/t38088...tographed-by-cassini/?page=1&sort=oldestFirst

Could you give a summary?

Hi Mick supposedly the pictures shown are from Nasa (They look authentic to me) and show a cylinder shaped craft of some sort... It seems to overlap or intersect and orbit around Saturn. The pictures are supposed evidence so In wandering if anyone can identify the authenticity of the images and what these objects or the source of this misconception is. Sorry I'm not posting a lot of info here :/ I'm still new to this.

derrick06 said:

Hi Mick supposedly the pictures shown are from Nasa (They look authentic to me) and show a cylinder shaped craft of some sort... It seems to overlap or intersect and orbit around Saturn. The pictures are supposed evidence so In wandering if anyone can identify the authenticity of the images and what these objects or the source of this misconception is. Sorry I'm not posting a lot of info here :/ I'm still new to this.

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Can you post or link to the pictures?

Stuart Robbins devoted a podcast to this topic last April, which is available here (scroll down for the transcript and extras). The thread linked in the OP contains all sorts of photos which aren't necessarily attributed to Bergrun and have made the rounds on conspiracy forums and UFO blogs for years.

The short, boring story is that people with strong UFO beliefs are typically not very good at analyzing NASA imagery, and those posts are full of misinterpretations (or misrepresentations). As an example, images from this 1996 Hubble press release are claimed to contain alien spacecraft, but the author completely disregards the explanations provided. They're just Saturn's moons.

If you're curious about any specific image, just link it.

My question to that theory is WHY would aliens make the rings? The much more feasible explanation is that one of Saturn's Moons got too close, was ripped apart and over the millenia fell into orbit around the planet..which created the rings... OR one of the "smaller" moons was hit by a comet and both bodies shattered then fell into orbit around the planet. Why do aliens have to create it when Mother Nature is better at creating that kind of beauty on her own?

Is it because:

P.S. This isnt a dig on ET Believers or on the OP.. given the statistics of the galaxy, let alone our universe.. I am a firm believer in Non Terrestrial beings.. I just dont buy into them flying way the hell out to the armpit of the galaxy to tinker around with a solar system thats got a very average and not very interesting star and system.

Svartbjørn said:

My question to that theory is WHY would aliens make the rings?

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I'd love to know this as well, but sadly we're not provided with any rationale. It would seem particularly important, too, considering he claims vehicles matching this description cruise around Saturn and likely the rest of the solar system (p. 57):



Now, what I didn't realize until going through the book is that he claims these "EMVs" are huge. From his wanton abuse of imagery, he somehow concluded that the length of these ring-making "vehicles" is one to four times the diameter of the Earth!



Surely nobody would ever notice.

People are very creative, and as has been pointed out more than once.. if the mind sees things it doesnt recognize or cant comprehend well, it fights to create some kind of rationale. This is why we had reports of Triangular shaped UFOs in the 80s and 90s until the F-117 was made public. Turns out that the landing gear make a triangular shape when the lights are on and the gear are down at night.. not to mention that people had not seen a vehicle of that shape before, it didnt fit anything wed ever seen in the air.. so the brain did what the brain did and tried to make sense of it. It may very well be that these ships are something similar..just something that isnt recognized so the mind tries to make it fit something the person can relate to. Thats really the only thing I can come up with that doesnt start getting in to the realm of serious Sci-Fi.

The E ring is being "fed" by Enceladus.
http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/science/moons/enceladus/enceladusfeedring/

Cryovolcanism is far more interesting than imaginary ringmakers. Speaking of the Cassini mission, I wonder how (or if) Bergrun dealt with the fact that its imagery rendered his anomaly hunting utterly useless.

Great info guys. Yeah essentially there were multiple pictures in that article I was confused about. Especially when they like to present them as if they are secret or hidden... So it seems that most of these object are actually rocks and such? I can see where the confusion comes from when you have these cylindrical shaped objects... But I'm pretty sure extra terrestrials would have better things to do than sit idle around Saturn in penis shaped crafts... LOL anyways are all of these pics in the above link I posted from the Cassini mission? Where so they come from?

Here are a few that I was curious of. What are these? Passing comets?

Were some of the shapes due to movement of moons over a long exposure?

The above pictures could easily be moons orbiting, there's no reason they would have to follow the rings rotation.

The rings have tiny moons, natural undulations, and the occasional comet or meteor:
http://www.enjoyspace.com/en/news/saturn-s-rings-in-low-angled-light

Made up of blocks of rock and ice, the rings not only cover a large area (up to 140,000 km from the centre of the planet for the main ones - those visible through amateur telescopes), but are also very thin, ten or so meters thick. However, this thickness is greatly increased in places. In fact, thanks to the shadows which result from the Sun’s low-angled lighting, recent photographs from Cassini have, more than ever before, revealed the ruffles provoked by the small moons which move about within the rings. Thus, the 8 km diameter Daphnis creates waves extending 1.5 km with peaks going up to 4 km high due to the gravitational pull that its very presence causes (images below).


On the left, the Moon Daphnis (arrow), its shadow (vertical black line above) and the waves it provokes in the rings (wavy white line which projects a shadow). On the right, other much bigger undulations from Daphnis. Their shadow (arrow) indicates that the blocks which make up the rings form peaks here which are up to 4 km high above the plane of the rings.
Credit: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute

Even smaller moons, several hundreds of meters wide, incite the formation of “lumps” which are obviously not as high, but are, nevertheless, 200 m above the plane of the rings and 130 km in length.


This “lump”, caused by a small 400 m (estimation) diameter moon, is 130 km long and is more than 200 m above the plane of the rings.
Credit: NASA/JPL/Space Science Institute

derrick06 said:

So it seems that most of these object are actually rocks and such?

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Most are actually Saturn's moons. Examples: Prometheus and Dione. The latter image has been passed around as a "cylindrical UFO" but it's just a blurry picture. The previous image of Dione in that sequence is a little cleaner.

derrick06 said:

anyways are all of these pics in the above link I posted from the Cassini mission?

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Some were taken by Cassini, but they're not necessarily original images. Some have been "enhanced" or modified by the people who posted them (like the picture of Prometheus posted above, which the poster monkeyed with), or are low-quality copies. The original image sources aren't properly referenced, which makes it unnecessarily difficult to track down original images for comparison.

derrick06 said:

Here are a few that I was curious of. What are these? Passing comets?

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The first image shows an ordinary interaction in Saturn's F ring. See: Cassini Sees Objects Blazing Trails in Saturn Ring



The second image appears to be a poor quality copy of this photo taken by Voyager 2. It could just be an image artifact or one of the camera's reference marks as seen in this shot.

The third image is attributable to "ufologist" Bob Dean, who claims a giant UFO was photographed by the Apollo 13 crew. In reality these are just examples of sunlight reflecting off the CSM/LM, as shown in AS13-62-9010. You can find similar examples in the last two magazines (II and JJ).

Edit: typo

Ah great info! Thank you!

First time post here. I some images from his book. This is not a moon. This is what the Dr. would later call an EMV (electromagnetic vehicle). If you want more explanation of EMVs. James C Horak claims he know what they are. He spoke with Dr. Bergrun about this and the Dr. wrote him off as crazy. The following is a link to Jame's web site, http://emvsinfo.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html pictures of "EMVs" around the sun.

sorry dude, but when someone posts heavily pixillated low resolution close ups of fuzzy blobs cropped seemingly at random from NASA images with only a vague reference to where they came from, and claims they are proof that aliens are engineering our solar system I have to be a tad incredulous. I could get the same effect from colour adjusted pixillated, over zoomed extreme close ups of a bowl of porridge. I suspect some of these claimed EMV's are nothing but sunspots, a well known solar weather event, and others are image anomalies cause by the fact they are over zoomed and very low res.

Travis R said:

First time post here. I some images from his book. This is not a moon. This is what the Dr. would later call an EMV (electromagnetic vehicle). If you want more explanation of EMVs. James C Horak claims he know what they are. He spoke with Dr. Bergrun about this and the Dr. wrote him off as crazy. The following is a link to Jame's web site, http://emvsinfo.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html pictures of "EMVs" around the sun.

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Whitebeard said:

sorry dude, but when someone posts heavily pixillated low resolution close ups of fuzzy blobs cropped seemingly at random from NASA images with only a vague reference to where they came from, and claims they are proof that aliens are engineering our solar system I have to be a tad incredulous. I could get the same effect from colour adjusted pixillated, over zoomed extreme close ups of a bowl of porridge. I suspect some of these claimed EMV's are nothing but sunspots, a well known solar weather event, and others are image anomalies cause by the fact they are over zoomed and very low res.

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Unfortunately @Travis R I kind of have to agree with @Whitebeard on this one. Dont get me wrong, I agree with the mathmatical statistics that its nearly impossible for there NOT to be non terrestrial life out in the universe, let alone our own galaxy, but I absolutely can not go along with the whole "they're here messing with us" stuff. Any civilization thats advanced enough to be able to achieve interstellar travel is NOT going to take the time to putter around and be all secretive. They have no reason to be.

Let's also consider the fact that we live in a very average, nondescript solar system on the western outer edge of our galaxy.. we're literally living in the middle of the sticks.. the middle of no where. There's no reason for an alien race to even pay attention to us here in the Sol system. Any civilization that advanced would look at the people of Earth as we view neanderthals discovering fire. We've just BARELY cracked the atom.. BARELY gotten primitive vehicles out into space, and have JUST gotten a 40 year old craft outside our solar system and into deep space, beyond the sun's influence.. beyond the Oort Cloud.

We're a tiny insignificant species on an insignificant mono solar system. If Im up to date (and the astronomers and astrophysicists in the group can correct me on this), the vast majority of the systems we've discovered are binary in nature.. we have one tiny middle aged star.

I dont mean to rain on your parade Travis.. I dont.. I really really really believe there are other forms of intelligent life out there, but if our OWN life on earth has taught us anything, its that an advanced civilization will conquer a less sophisticated one.. and they wont have to be all sneaky about it. They'll literally walk in, blow away the resistance and either eradicate or enslave the population. No need for subterfuge.. Humans are not as special as we like to pretend we are.

On a personal level, Id love it if non terrestrial life were visiting us, but the probabilities of it being a reality are nearly non-existent.

Travis R said:

First time post here. I some images from his book. This is not a moon. This is what the Dr. would later call an EMV (electromagnetic vehicle). If you want more explanation of EMVs. James C Horak claims he know what they are. He spoke with Dr. Bergrun about this and the Dr. wrote him off as crazy. The following is a link to Jame's web site, http://emvsinfo.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html pictures of "EMVs" around the sun.

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This is what Stuart Robbins (from Bad Science) says about Bergrun's book:

Bergrun’s process was to take photos that were published in things like newspapers and magazines, put them under a microscope, and take a photo of them through the microscope’s eyepiece, and then look for weird tings. When going through that process, you are going to find weird things. Every example of a spaceship or alien or whatever that he has can be VERY easily explained by dust or gunk getting in the photo, or uneven illumination, or film grain, and the anomalies he found do not appear in ANY other version of the images.

In fact, one such example that Bergrun points to as a UFO is a bright speck in the bottom of an image, except the bottom part of that image is clearly NOT part of the image that Voyager took because the rings cut-off about 20% of the way from the bottom. This shows that the photo he’s using is a reproduction, including blank area, and he’s pointing to image anomalies caught in that duplication.

On the first image posted bij derrick06 (#12) Phil Plait (from Bad Astronomy -- it is all bad, it seems) had the following suggestion:

But it looks ... like some small object on an inclined orbit has punched through Saturn’s narrow F ring, bursting out from underneath, and dragging behind it a wake of particles from the rings.

I wonder why these EMVs are so common around Saturn and the sun but so rare in pictures of other bodies?


Actually, I don't wonder. The two most dynamic and complex parts of the solar system are the surface and atmosphere of the sun and the orbits around Saturn (with Jupiter's atmosphere as a close third, interestingly the next most common place to find these vehicles in pictures!).

Every image of the sun - and I really do mean every single last one of the millions we've taken - is consistent with the complex magnetic fields it exerts on its surroundings. We have a pretty good postdictive understanding of the immediate causes of various features, even though our predictive understanding is poor. And every image of Saturn - and again, I really do mean every single last one - is consistent with a planet that just has all kinds of crap orbiting it. 62 moons stable and confirmed well enough to have earned names or at least be on the waiting list for official names, two that haven't yet, dozens more too insignificant to get more than numbers, several co-orbital asteroids, trojan asteroids of its own, trojan asteroids for a couple of its moons, and of course the incredibly complex ring system consisting of millions of small bodies and hundreds of minor moonlets. Saturn has a serious case of Kessler Syndrome, not a Zerg infestation.

Edit: The science here is not that complex. It touches on some advanced stuff, but doesn't require advanced understanding. The fact that you won't learn much of it until mid-level college material isn't a statement to its complexity, but to the top-heavy nature of science education and the generally low quality and out of date nature of primary and secondary science education.

Whitebeard said:

sorry dude, but when someone posts heavily pixillated low resolution close ups of fuzzy blobs cropped seemingly at random from NASA images with only a vague reference to where they came from, and claims they are proof that aliens are engineering our solar system I have to be a tad incredulous. I could get the same effect from colour adjusted pixillated, over zoomed extreme close ups of a bowl of porridge. I suspect some of these claimed EMV's are nothing but sunspots, a well known solar weather event, and others are image anomalies cause by the fact they are over zoomed and very low res.

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It is from a book authored by Dr. Norman R. Bergrun. Photographs taken durning the Voyager 1 flight to Saturn in 1980.
Ring Makers of Saturn.
about Dr. Bergrun
Executive. Personal: Born August 4, 1921; Son of Theodore and Naomi Ruth Stemm
Bergrun (both deceased); Married Claire Michaelson; Father of Clark, Jay, Joan.
Education: B.S.M.E., Cornell University, 1943; L.L.B., LaSalle University (Extension),
1955; Postgraduate Study, Stanford University, 1947; Continuing Education,
Foothill College, 1982. Military: Served in the United States Navy, 1944-46, attaining
the rank of Chief Specialist. Career: Executive, Bergrun Companies (Research,
Engineering, Construction, Properties); Thermodynamicist, Douglas Aircraft
Company, El Segundo, 1943-44; Aero Research Scientist, NACA Ames Laboratory,
1944-56; Lockheed Missile and Space Company, Van Nuys (CA), Supervisor Flight
Test 1956-68, Manager Flight Test Analysis 1958-62, Manager Test Plans and
Direction 1962-63, Manager Re-Entry Test Operations 1963-67, Staff Scientist
Satellite Systems Applications 1967-69; Director, Management Information Systems,
Nielsen Engineering and Research, Mt. View, California. Organizational Memberships:
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Chairman San Francisco
Section 1962, Regional Director 1963, Associate Fellow; California Society of
Professional Engineers, State Director 1973-74 and 1979-83, Vice-President, 1986.
National Society of Professional Engineers, National Director, 1975-76; California
Space and Defense Council, 1982; Co-founder and Acting Chairman of the Board,
California Professional Engineering Center, 1986. Charter Member Aviation Hall of
Fame. Community Activities: Foreign-Student Host, International Center for the
Advancement of Management Education, Stanford University, 1964-67; National
Hearing on Noise Abatement and Control, Washington, D.C., 1971; Steering
Committee Member for Representative Charles S. Gubser, 10th District California,
83rd-93rd Congress, 1960-74; California Space and Defense Council, 1982; Presidential
Task Force, 1982; Television Public Service Announcement, Holiday Project,
1981. Religion: Stanford Memorial Chapel, Teaching Assistant, Youth Program;
Member Chapel Summer Choir, 1982; Foothill Evening Chorale, 1980-86 interdenominational.
Honors and Awards: Engineer of the Year, California Society of
Professional Engineers, Penisula Chapter, 1978; Appreciation for Sustained Contributions
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 1972; Extraordinary Service
Award, National Management Association, 1968; Recognition of Distinctive Service,
Institute of Aerospace Sciences, 1962; Appreciation for Contributions to First Polaris
Launching, Navy Department, 1960.

Travis R said:

It is from a book authored by Dr. Norman R. Bergrun. Photographs taken durning the Voyager 1 flight to Saturn in 1980. Ring Makers of Saturn.
about Dr. Bergrun...Religion: Stanford Memorial Chapel, Teaching Assistant, Youth Program;
Member Chapel Summer Choir, 1982; Foothill Evening Chorale, 1980-86 interdenominational....

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Had I realized that Norm was in the Chapel Summer Choir in 1982,
I'd have never questioned his interpretation of these photos.

Travis R said:

about Dr. Bergrun
Executive. Personal: Born August 4, 1921; Son of Theodore and Naomi Ruth Stemm
Bergrun (both deceased); Married Claire Michaelson; Father of Clark, Jay, Joan.
Education: B.S.M.E., Cornell University, 1943; L.L.B., LaSalle University (Extension),
1955; Postgraduate Study, Stanford University, 1947; Continuing Education,
Foothill College, 1982. Military: Served in the United States Navy, 1944-46, attaining
the rank of Chief Specialist. Career: Executive, Bergrun Companies (Research,
Engineering, Construction, Properties); Thermodynamicist, Douglas Aircraft
Company, El Segundo, 1943-44; Aero Research Scientist, NACA Ames Laboratory,
1944-56; Lockheed Missile and Space Company, Van Nuys (CA), Supervisor Flight
Test 1956-68, Manager Flight Test Analysis 1958-62, Manager Test Plans and
Direction 1962-63, Manager Re-Entry Test Operations 1963-67, Staff Scientist
Satellite Systems Applications 1967-69; Director, Management Information Systems,
Nielsen Engineering and Research, Mt. View, California. Organizational Memberships:
American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Chairman San Francisco
Section 1962, Regional Director 1963, Associate Fellow; California Society of
Professional Engineers, State Director 1973-74 and 1979-83, Vice-President, 1986.
National Society of Professional Engineers, National Director, 1975-76; California
Space and Defense Council, 1982; Co-founder and Acting Chairman of the Board,
California Professional Engineering Center, 1986. Charter Member Aviation Hall of
Fame. Community Activities: Foreign-Student Host, International Center for the
Advancement of Management Education, Stanford University, 1964-67; National
Hearing on Noise Abatement and Control, Washington, D.C., 1971; Steering
Committee Member for Representative Charles S. Gubser, 10th District California,
83rd-93rd Congress, 1960-74; California Space and Defense Council, 1982; Presidential
Task Force, 1982; Television Public Service Announcement, Holiday Project,
1981. Religion: Stanford Memorial Chapel, Teaching Assistant, Youth Program;
Member Chapel Summer Choir, 1982; Foothill Evening Chorale, 1980-86 interdenominational.
Honors and Awards: Engineer of the Year, California Society of
Professional Engineers, Penisula Chapter, 1978; Appreciation for Sustained Contributions
Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, 1972; Extraordinary Service
Award, National Management Association, 1968; Recognition of Distinctive Service,
Institute of Aerospace Sciences, 1962; Appreciation for Contributions to First Polaris
Launching, Navy Department, 1960.

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Goes to show that even the most qualified and experienced of people can go off the rails and get hung up on delusional Pareidolia.

Whitebeard said:

Goes to show that even the most qualified and experienced of people can go off the rails and get hung up on delusional Pareidolia.

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It doesn't list his diploma mill PHD.

So many paid no-criteria memberships, committee appointments, political organizations with technical sounding names, and meaningless honorifics... Paring down that resume to the actual expert positions (or for that matter, just taking all of them at face value!) none of his qualifications are in astronomy or even astrophysics, they're in engineering. His qualifications in this subject are no better than mine. Arguably worse because I read astronomy blogs and articles to find out what things I don't understand are and he just jumps to fantastic conclusions.

And seriously fantastic ones at that. There's an addage related to occam's razor: When you hear hoofs, assume horses, not zebras. Well, he's hearing hoofs and assuming flying robotic unicorns forged from magical obsidian by the proud dwarves of Middle Earth.

Has this been posted yet? (AND know, I do not agree with "all" of it, I think it's relevant to the discussion):

Ah wait....I see it referenced above, Post #22.


I had been in 'process' of composing (but I thought otherwise, and self deleted) a "reply" that was meant to "suggest" that if "ANY" extraterrestrial intelligence was determined to "paint" a "picture" in the Solar System? Then perhaps "they" might have considered JUPITER as a "canvas" (??)....since it is the largest of the gas giants in our System AND happens to be closer to Earth than is Saturn!!

Jupiter of course has that famous "red-spot"....(which most science tend to think is merely a gigantic "hurricane" of sorts, in Jupiter's upper atmosphere).

"Rings of SATURN" -- how poetic. To think that there were "makers"? Sorry, does not pass the "logic" examination.

There are (faint) "rings" around the planet Uranus.....

AND please don't try to make this into a "cheap" joke....


PROPER "link": (sorry....got fouled up):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rings_of_Uranus