1. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    Can anyone here explain it to a layman?

    Example: MattStopChemtrails. I pick Matt because he is a fellow Australian, deeply committed and apparently there is something very strange in his psychological makeup. Matt is reknown for applying the parameters of the Appleman graph incorrectly, using the sea level temperatures and RH values to "prove" that contrails can never exist in sub-tropical Queeensland where he lives. Apparently there is no air-traffic either where he lives, just north of Brisbane. I have have not shown him the Australian visualization produced by Mick yet, but only because I suspect that his "filtering mechanisms" will simply not allow his brain to process the information.

    That aside, his last FB entry is worthy of comment.

    Matt considers that his finding of an unclassified research report submitted by a USAF Major attending a staff college as absolute irrefutable proof of widespread ongoing weaponised weather manipulation, that is happening now.


    I just need some help in understanding how he gets to this point, after crossing what I consider to be the following, intractable logic gates.

    Quotes from the preamble to the report...

    1. Operational Defenses through Weather Control in 2030
    2. A Research Report Submitted to the Faculty In Partial Fulfillment of the Graduation Requirements
    Maxwell Air Force Base, Alabama
    April 2009
    3. Distribution A: approved for Public Release: Distribution Unlimited
    4. SECURITY CLASSIFICATION OF: a. REPORT unclassified b. ABSTRACT unclassified
    5. Disclaimer The views expressed in this academic research paper are those of the author(s) and do not
    reflect the official policy or position of the US government or the Department of Defense. In
    accordance with Air Force Instruction 51-303, it is not copyrighted, but is the property of the
    United States government.

    So how do we get from there to this FB post and the absolute uncritical admiration of his followers?

    The post can be found here.


    So I am at a loss. I feel like, that to cope with this mindset, one needs almost to become like them. Frankly that scares me. Does anyone have some professional input as to the pyschological profile we are dealing with here?:confused:
    • Like Like x 1
  2. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    BTW... Australia is not a party to the UN Open Skies treaty signed in 2002. But that is typical of the fact checking abilities of these people.
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's a very strong case of confirmation bias. They ALREADY believe a specific set of things, so when something comes along that touches on those things, then all the bits of that that tally with what they think are true, and anything that conflicts with it is not true.

    Having a "fixed false belief" in psychiatry is normally classified as a delusion, and a symptom of a delusional disorder. This probably falls somewhere on the spectrum. There are always going to be people who are "lost to reason", and you need to identify them, and probably not waste time with them.

    If someone actually has a psychiatric disorder, then you can't sure them by explaining to them over the internet.

    NOTE TO CHEMTRAIL BELIEVERS: I'm not saying you are all crazy! Just that some crazy people believe in chemtrails.
    • Like Like x 1
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  4. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    This guy is a perfect example of when a chemrailer thinks he has made a "great discovery", is now a "great researcher", and posesses "special knowledge".

    Confirmation bias to the extreme, and if his peers agree, ego-strokes to boot.

    I don't know if this helps.
    • Like Like x 1
  5. HappyMonday

    HappyMonday Moderator

    I've been facing the same thing all week on twitter.

    Yesterday I was accused of 'ignoring the evidence' because I responded to every point in sequence,by people who had completely failed to address a very specific,repeated question about the evidence three times in the preceding half hour.

    The problem with attacking fixed beliefs is that there's evidence the act of presenting contradictory evidence can strengthen them in the believer.

    One young chap who's been 'researching' chemtrails for years,and who also ignored my evidence when it was presented to him,has written to his MP. The mp's office hasn't responded within five days,and he's already on Twitter talking about how suspicious this is...Whatever reply he receives will clearly be viewed through the same prism.

    I think thr key with these kind of things is innoculation. I'm concentrating as much as I can on those who aren't already actively buying the hoax...Twitter's perfect for this,being entirely public,and it really annoys Arizona Skywatch when you troll the #chemtrails hashtag.
    • Like Like x 2
  6. Jazzy

    Jazzy Closed Account

    The mind of a delusional person isn't susceptible to external reasoning. Somehow that person must be gently tricked into attacking him/herself.

    Smoke has been an element of war since the time of Sun Tzu. This is modern bollocks touting for cash. Typical, and unremarkable.
    • Like Like x 3
  7. gisellewilding

    gisellewilding New Member

    Mate I was married to someone like you, who because he was inheriting a fortune and wanted to commit massive fraud wanted me shut up. No one, not one person could find a thing wrong with me. You sound,in your rants, so like him.

    I wonder if most of you commenting on here understand the basics of psychology.Even one of Australia's top forensic psychologist could not find a thing wrong with me. Chemtrails and spraying as a weapon of destruction are real.

    Well mate I could have got a big payout after working for a big multinational for many years had I had a psychological disorder when the Child Support Agency took most of my money to give to a multimillionaire paed who wanted me dead. I tried but not a cent. Chemtrails are real and all those who say they are for the destruction of us are spot on.
  8. Jazzy

    Jazzy Closed Account

    Hey, I've been a YouTube warrior for some considerable time. I thought being here would be some sort of break from that.

    If you'd been married to me, then it would have occurred in 1968, we would have had two children who grew up to become an artist and a scientist, and we'd now have two grandchildren. But you weren't so lucky, it seems. I have studiously avoided fraud, and wealth avoided me, but we have always led a comfortable life, nevertheless.

    I worked first as an aeroengineer, which is why I know you are incorrect in your chemtrail theory, then I retrained as an industrial designer, working in the petrochemical area (another reason why I know you're incorrect), then in the engineering industry, where my testimony helped put my managing director behind bars for fraud (he went on to greater things and is now behind bars in LA prison for 180 years).

    Your assertions are without any evidence behind them. I'm sure you are deluded because of that. I love your avatar, so there's a turn-up for the book...
    • Like Like x 5
    • Funny Funny x 1
  9. HappyMonday

    HappyMonday Moderator

    I, for one, am positive you're perfectly well adjusted.

    As for chemtrails, please address the debunking of the conspiracy theories claims in the relevant topic if you want to discuss it.
  10. Billzilla

    Billzilla Active Member

    Except for the insurmountable problem of not even the tiniest bit of any evidence at all.
    What's the word for someone that believes something very strongly despite the total lack of evidence ... ?
  11. Fred259

    Fred259 New Member

    One moment folks....

    In #8 Gisellewilding said;

    “Chem-trails and spraying as a weapon of destruction are real”

    If we take out the word Chem-trail and leave the sentence as “ Spraying as a weapon of destruction are / is real” how do we feel now?.

    Gisellewilding is correct. We know for a fact don’t we that the US sprayed Agent Orange in Vietnam. Its also happened elsewhere.

    Jazzy, in #10 tells us he is an aircraft engineer and has also worked in the petrochemical industry.

    Seriously Gisellewilding, you have to appreciate that Jazzy is an analytical type of guy. He has a professional knowledge and understanding backed up with decades of experience on how aircraft and more importantly jet engines work.

    Aircraft and engines are designed to be most efficient at high altitude which is where they will spend a lifetime. The atmosphere is continually changing and is highly complex. Its within this ever changing complex environment that aircraft engines spend a lifetime and so Jazzy, in addition to his engineering knowledge must also have a good professional knowledge and understanding of the way the atmosphere functions. They call this the International Standard Atmosphere ( ISA) or sometimes Jet Standard Atmosphere (JSA)http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/international-standard-atmosphere-d_985.html

    Engines are designed around various converging and diverging ducts. Compressed air flowing through these ducts will suffer massive changes in temperature, pressure and velocity. They call these changes "The Gas Laws". By massive changes they mean temperatures around 900C (so that's twice the heat of a domestic oven), pressure ratio around 150lbs/sq inch, and gasses flowing within the engine at around 2,500 feet per second. Think about that for a moment, that's twice the height of the World Trade Centre (WTC)... per second!

    Its a bit like visiting the doctor. If your physician informs you that you have high blood pressure; you accept that. You can discuss perhaps the reasons why you have raised blood pressures , but we don’t doubt the doctor do we. We trust his/her professional judgement. We need to do the same here and trust what Jazzy is saying and his professional judgement. If he starts talking nonsense be certain others on here will point out the errors of his ways. Jazzy knows this and so you should take some comfort that what you are reading is going to be very robust and above all factual.

    This is a great thread Cobra has started. We need to explore these issues and in so doing clear up some unusual misconceptions. A bit of re-conceptualisation based on peer knowledge and understanding is needed because in a wider context this is an extremely serious subject.

    Back to Jazzy. He has in fact been a little naughty! In post #6 he said. “ Smoke has been the element of war since the time of Sun Tzu” A very powerful statement.

    Who was Sun Tzu and what does Jazzy really mean?
    • Like Like x 1
  12. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Jazzy actually said that smoke has been AN element of war, not THE element of war. Smoke screens have been used for centuries. Sun Tzu was a Chinese general, strategist and tactician who wrote a treatise called "The Art of War". I don't recall smoke screens being mentioned in the Art of War and a search of the text came up empty. However the use of smoke screens has been documented as far back as the Roman Empire.


    We now return you to our regularly scheduled thread "The psychology of CT believers".

  13. Jazzy

    Jazzy Closed Account

    Hey, thanks for the support, guys. I didn't say that Sun Tzu mentioned smoke, but feel he must have used it, mainly because everyone panics when they can't see what's going on. I can't remember with reference to what, actually. LOL.

    I thought I was being personally attacked. It's only a post, and not on topic.

    On the topic, I think we are all weak when it comes to confronting the unknown, and should take Mick's very fine (so far!) example. Sympathy (empathy?) and consideration will win through in the end. Alienation won't.
  14. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Agreed. However my beef is with those who would take advantage of others fears, and ignorance of a particular subject matter. Otherwise I am empathetic towards those who are taken advantage of.

    BTW, Sun Tzu writes in some detail about the use of fire as a strategy in the context of a weapon rather than utilizing smoke as deception, of which he also writes in some detail about the strategy of deception. I would expect him to have written on the use of smoke if that were a tactic he used. Not that it matters, just sayin'. :)

  15. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member


    There's a lot of confirmation bias and paranoia involved.

    I commented on the above video, simply explaining the optics involved and offering some search terms for further information. My comment was deleted immediately and I recieved the following message in my inbox:

    "Their BS lies". I guess that means that all of science is to be distrusted as being part of the conspiracy. I wonder how they confirm the veracity of each others' claims? Anything that fits the "conspiracy narrative" is golden?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Jazzy

    Jazzy Closed Account

    Where anything goes on the way in, and it's subject to a consensual filter. Oh yeah, brother.

    My "Get the inside story at atoptics.com" lasted twenty minutes. I received a clenched-teeth "bye bye"...
  17. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    Peter Kusznir is a case in point. His latest video is entitled "Major troll alert".


    In the washup to the Chemtrail article in News Ltd I became aware that some comment was posted on a CT website, based in NZ called the Con-Trail.com. The site uses usernames (Kusznir himself posts as Peter K), so I picked one and made one post where I fully identified myself. The post is presented in full below.


    The post lasted about 15 minutes before Kusznir contacted the admin..


    Shortly afterwards the post was removed and my username banned.

    I was told by another user that the post was put back on the site the next day. I wanted to see the response so rejoined as another username, but made no posts.

    So that is the basis for this "Major Troll alert". I know I said I wasn't referring to anyone in particular with the room temperature IQ's remark but Kusznir and his mate Matt McInnes, who apparently believes all the LinkedIn profiles from around the world with my name, are me, must be prime contenders.

    Kusznir makes no reference to the fact that I have contacted him with offers to show him the QF63 being prepared for flight. That I have offerred to try to accomodate any request he may make to try to explain what he is seeing in other terms than "Chemtrails". He hasn't replied directly but his response here speaks volumes.

    The man is an idiot and I will content myself with documenting the threats made on his youtube channel to be passed on to the lawyers of the first pilots harmed in any way by the urgings and rantings of this imbecile.

    Sorry if this violates the politeness policy, but enough is enough.

    BTW Peter, that IP is incorrect. I don't have a static IP but a broadband connection will stay on the same IP till disconnected.
    • Like Like x 7
  18. HappyMonday

    HappyMonday Moderator

    Troll is another catch-all term for 'those who don't agree' with some of these people. The childishness is so frustrating.
  19. Trigger Hippie

    Trigger Hippie Senior Member

    That video has been removed.

    and also, "www.con-trail.com" seems to be a parked domain. Typo perhaps?
  20. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    Yes sorry, the contrail.com. You cannot just view the site however. You need to join and be approved. Personally after seeing it, I wouldn't bother.
  21. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    BTW the video is gone for, among other reasons, Kusznir was allowing and tacitly encouraging comments on launching DOS attacks on the IP he published which wasn't the one i am currently using. He is a nice law abiding chap isn't he? The AFP will be notified of that as well.
    • Like Like x 1
  22. Fred259

    Fred259 New Member

    If we think about this logically the vast majority of people just want to know the truth. Deep down they don’t really believe in Chem-trails. What’s happening is that change agents have convinced them about the “Government are spraying you”

    We need to understand why the change agents are doing this.

    The vast majority of material on the internet is either copied and then re-published, or it’s some Joe in his back garden in Sydney with a video camera taking a picture of QF64 pulling a contrail over the city.

    However a few key people are are causing serious damage. These people are change agents like Cliff Carnicon, Mike Murphy, Kerry Cassidy, Alex Jones, and Jeff Rense. They think it’s cool to be part of this sub culture, and have your own radio show. They also have another objective of course.

    New people are joining the circus all the time. People like Dutchsense. I’m not sure how his name is spelt; really it should be “No Sense” or “Nonsense” Ever mindful of the politeness policy on this forum if I called Dutchsense dumber than the dumb would that be rude?

    Dutchsense posts on his website weather radar images of the Eastern Pacific, Central America and the Gulf Coast. These weather radar images show the Inter-tropical Convergence Zone (ITCZ) together with the circular flow of air from the Hadley Cell as a mixed sprawling inferno in red, amber and black. Its impressive, its nature, its harmless. Or is it?

    Harm, however is being done. Dutchsense announces that this is HAARP, and uses key anchor words such as “here is more evidence” and “we can see here” and the answer is yes, we can see. It’s the ITCZ which he has effectively stolen and is now re-branded as HAARP.

    What Dutchsense is really talking about is a thunderstorm or cells of thunderstorms. He tricks the reader however by calling thunderstorms HAARP. (The reader of course has no idea what HAARP really is) Then we have statements like:

    “Remember, before the HAARP attack they always spray massive chem-trails”

    Translated from Dutchsense speak into plain English what he is saying is that before the thunderstorm dissipates contrails will be all over the sky. Is this true? Yes, of course. Why so? Because the atmosphere is very unstable, the instability stretches through at least 10,000 feet, with high relative humidity. Is this normal? Yes of course its harmless its nature.

    The problem is that the general public don’t know this which is entirely understandable and so they seek further conformation and what they call “the truth” for they are truthers. They are awake of course, the problem they have however is that “the people” are asleep and so they have now been conditioned by the above mentioned change agents to think that they must wake the people up (sorry sheeple).

    Wake up Wake up ! Look… heavy chem-trailing prepare for a HAARP attack next!

    It’s my view that we need to treat these people who believe this nonsense as victims for they have been harmed and manipulated by this utter nonsense. We need to show them respect and understanding and explain in plain English how it is they are being tricked and harmed.

    We must also allow those who seek knowledge and understanding precisely who it is that’s really harming them. Unlike some they are not dumb, or sheeple for that matter. They just need core facts and an explanation. With this knowledge they will work things through themselves and in their own time will come to realise they are being conned.

    We can see this already with comments like; “I don’t trust a word that Kerry Cassidy says”

    Great work has already been done and much achieved. We are winning this, it’s a public relations exercise involving fact and common sense.

    With "the people" now ring-fenced and being drip fed fact and common sense normalization and stability will return in the fullness of time.

    This now allows us to focus our attention on those who are facilitating this nonsense. Does anyone have any ideas on this? I'm particularly interested in finding out views and opinions as to why these change agents are doing this? This is a very deep dark and black subject. I have knowledge to share. I would however rather do this collectively.

    Why are these change agents publishing this nonsense on Chem-trails? What is the agenda?
    • Like Like x 4
  23. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    most of you probably work for the government anyways so why would a person who does not believe in there lies,believe you guys.
  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Because they can check what we say with the supplied references.
  25. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I like how all you read here is half ass proof stating chemtrails are fake and made up its just contrails blah blah altitude humidity. Along with bashing lol
    Spoon fed monkeys live inside your cage...
    "contrails" don't last days and float across 3-5state range while the whole time expanding but remaining similar shapes.
    The same plan doesn't fly around one area littering the sky with "contrails"
    2 planes same altitude pretty much right next to each other one leaving a "contrail" the other actual contrail was evaporating much much faster.
    There is a difference in the weather modification inc and Chemtrails. 2 opposite things.
    Dust, volcano ash, dirty doesn't produce extremely unsafe levels in aluminum or any other heavy metal for that matter.(side note: why hasn't the government tried to figure out where it's coming from?)
    Why did planes fly right I front of sandy before she hit land?
    Ever heard of H.A.A.R.P.? You know there are patents for mind and weather control?? A 4hz impulse wave will make the human body depressed.
    This whole site is bashing, misleading and uninformative.
    It's real and happening. Keep believing the president runs the united states too
  26. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There's a good example of a particular type of chemtrail believer. Somewhat angry, dismissive of contrary information, and really just boiling down to "I don't trust the government".

    Unregistered, can you explain why you are posting here?
    • Like Like x 1
  27. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    Feel free to register and point out errors in the topics instead of this shotgun approach of various points that aren't specifically addressing the thread topic.

    They do when the weather is right. A weak upper level impulse ripping along in the jet stream is conducive to this.

    Start a thread about this. Valid documentation of such would be news to most here. Every youtube vid I've seen claiming to document this does not verify the identity of the plane or planes in the video and always seem to come from areas of the country with a tremendous number of intersecting flight paths.

    Have documentation of flight ID and verification of altitude? Pretty much every time this claim is put forth the planes are actually maintaining at least minimum allowable vertical separation so they are actually flying in air parcels of differing humidity. Planes also can leave differing trails based on the type of engine and power setting when as similar altitude. You really need to know the plane type, throttle settings, and altitude of the planes involved before you can know whether or not you're seeing something strange.

    There are threads about this.

    The east coast is an extremely busy flight corridor. I flew "right in front" of hurricane Irene TWICE before it made landfall. I flew from Orlando to Providence when the storm was offshore of Florida, did a rowing and surfski race in Providence, and then flew from Providence back to Orlando when the storm was pummelling North Carolina. We were supposed to race around Jamestown Island but the storm was too close and the Coast Guard yanked our permit and we had to race in the river in downtown PVD past boathouse row. The outer rain bands were reaching Providence by the time my flight took off so the storm was pretty close but the airlines were still flying. Both time we flew in the upper level around the periphery of the storm and left impressive contrails as did every other plane flying that busy corridor ahead of the storm.

    Any other points you wish to raise really would be more helpful if directed into related threads.
    • Like Like x 3
  28. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    It isn't widely recognized because more research is just beginning on the subject, but indeed volcanoes produce substantial amounts of mercury into the atmosphere in nano size particles. Just this one volcano produces 7 tons per year, more than the total annual industrial releases of the UK!


    Doesn't debunk the chemtrails hoax, but this succinctly debunks your particular claim about volcanoes and heavy metals.

    That was government research. As far as the other chemtrail claims about aluminum, barium, and strontium. Folks on this forum found exactly where those elements are coming from by doing a more thorough job of sampling and analysis. The signature of what you people are finding is the fingerprint of mother earth itself!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  29. Critical Thinker

    Critical Thinker Senior Member

    I have given some thought to how conspiracy theorists put together what they see as evidence in support of their various theories. I have seen them put many disparate piece of data, selectively cherry-picking unrelated bits and pieces of information and claim that they form a complete picture that is proof of their favorite conspiracy theory. It made me think of a situation where you have several different jigsaw puzzles jumbled together, where some pieces from one puzzle might fit in another puzzle, where the resulting image does not reflect the actual picture. So I had to do a Google search to see if there are images of this nature ... and I found a good pictorial representation of how the disparate, unrelated bits of information get put together by conspiracy theorists into a theory that does not reflect the truth.



    Versus the actual images the that the puzzles were from.

    • Like Like x 7
  30. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  31. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Or maybe something like this - collecting pieces based on how they look, and arranging them into a preconceived shape.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 4
  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Of even better, creating a seemingly coherent picture with entirely random pieces of of different puzzles showhorned into place:


    Just because something fits, it does not mean it's part of the puzzle.
  33. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    I talked to a psychiatrist about such diehard conspiracists and she also used the word delusional. She said many cases of delusion are caused by a chemical imbalance - too much dopamine in the system. I asked her how she would treat such a person. She actually said, if given a choice, she wouldn't treat delusional people because you can't reason with them. If you try to reason with them they make you part of their delusion - you become part of their paranoid conspiracy. She said the best treatment must start with meds (dopamine reuptake inhibitor). Once the meds kick in they can be talked to and reasoned with, but the obvious problem with this plan is, getting a paranoid conspiracist to ingest anything handed to them from the matrix operators is near impossible.

    • Agree Agree x 2
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  34. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    Holy cow, "special knowledge"! I have a family member who is a big time conspiracist and this is a phrase he uses. This is a phrase David Icke uses a lot.
  35. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    Would this be considered confirmation bias? I see this a lot in the UFO community. Somebody claims to have found an alien base on the moon and because NASA hasn't addressed his "find" he then includes NASA's non-response as proof his find is legitimate.
  36. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    Maybe i missed something, but this reasoning is faulty.

    If i say "Moon dust spraying is being used as a weapon of destruction," according to your reasoning (remove the phrase "moon dust") my statement is accurate?
  37. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

    You could spray them with it ;)
  38. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    My favorite image demonstrating the nature of confirmation bias:

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  39. PCWilliams

    PCWilliams Active Member

    LOL! They already think they're being sprayed from the air, poisoned by water and brainwashed by cable TV. :confused:
  40. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    So much of the chemtrails hoax leads towards people who lie for various reasons, people who make stuff up or have vivid fantasy stories that they tell.

    One of the biggest sports events in the US is scheduled for this coming weekend, the Superbowl, our National Football League championship game.

    Jimmy Kimmel, a comedian, sent a reporter out on the street to see if he could find people willing to claim that they had already experienced the game, though it has yet to be played. They don't show the majority who probably said that the game hasn't been played yet, but the ones who were willing to lie about it and make up embellished stories are interesting to watch. Yes, the interviewer does lead the interviewees, but some of what they say is definitely just making stuff up out of thin air. Watch their eyes. This is very instructive as to how some elements of the chemtrails hoax has moved on.

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