1. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    There's no reason to assume it's a "shout-out". All we see in reality is a classified communications satellite delivered by the ULA. Just because something launches from the Cape doesn't mean it's automatically under NASA or JPL oversight, or that there's any connection to a long-deceased guy from JPL. You're strongly asserting something to be true which you're unable to demonstrate. That's really all there is to it.

    You didn't actually address the issue I raised. Lab experiments with mice and whatnot are in no way equivalent to the mission designs, engineering and systems we see for human spaceflight, let alone for Apollo -- which not only put astronaut safety at the top of the priority list, but also had the luxury of a blank check to work with. What you put forth is simply invalidated by the fact that it attempts to directly compare unlike things.



    No, you either missed my point or opted not to tackle it directly.



    Perhaps, they'd be alleviated already if you'd take the time to improve your understanding of the issue. You can accomplish that at Clavius.



    We don't have trouble keeping things alive in space. All the Expedition crews that have rotated on and off the ISS should attest to that. Note the cumulative crew time.
     
  2. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    All the bodies in our solar system* are named after mythological figures. That still doesn't validate Grieves's claim.

    (* = the significant ones, anyway)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    • Like Like x 1
  4. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    A classical education and familiarity with ancient mythology and texts used to be the norm, not evidence of sympathy for occult practices.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Except that it seems that you missed my point.

    They are used because they are easy to remember, they are names that folks KNOW before. Take the naming of the moons of Pluto. They didn't really NEED names, they had proper designations already, P4 and P5 of dwarf planet 134340 Pluto.

    I still remember when phone numbers had names like WHitehall 9-1235 instead of 959-1235.

    Names are used because they are easier for most folks to remember.




     
  6. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Excuse me, but the term is 'magicK'.
     
  7. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member

    They take it very seriously indeed, and there's a reason for that. Yet you say it's nothing serious, purely stylistic, and I'm sure you are convinced of that. Which is precisely why they take it so seriously.

    This may seem off topic since there isn't any footage to debunk and you are so sure of your assessment re NASA and have dismissed what I was seeking to get at by saying it was just "something they would do."

    Perhaps, but the link that brings it into focus is Mr. Crowley.
     
  8. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member

    Do you have evidence for that? ;)
     
  9. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member

    The two are not mutually exclusive, huh?
     
  10. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    I like that song.



    Do you have any intention of offering the slightest hint of an explanation or argument?
     
  11. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    No, but as modern people tend to be less familiar with the references they take on a rather more mysterious, gnostic or esoteric connotation than is necessarily warranted.
    If you're interested...
    Magick
     
  12. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    The view from the moon was apparently faked by holding something over a window of the space shuttle while still in earth orbit in order to change the perceived size of the earth to look like they were closer to the moon. Ironically, this shot apparently appeared in the Youtube video of the video expert. It's interesting that an expert in film would go on and on about the production of illusions... while apparently missing a relatively simple magic trick.
     
  13. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Except the Space Shuttle didn't have its first flight until April 12, 1981.
    http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/Chapter12.html
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Yet apparently "Mr. Crowley" himself took it seriously:
    After all, most artists seem to take the left hand path seriously.... even if it is a joke. I wish that they'd cover up the right eye, though.
     
  15. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Right, the view of the moon was apparently faked from within the space craft and the video expert apparently missed that despite all his expertise with respect to technicalities.

    Maybe if he spent more time investigating and seeing things from the perspective* of the conspiracy theorists that are presumably his subject and less time talking about his technical expertise and his vast technical knowledge of producing films he wouldn't have missed a detail like that, huh? A detail having to do with how at least some of NASA's films were apparently produced, for whatever reason.

    *Never fear, you can usually come full circle back to your own conclusions... and imagine people landing on the moon and your government loving you and so forth if you want to. But seriously, if you're going to criticize others then try to know their perspective on things and what seems like evidence to them and so forth. He should have said, Bart Sibrel says this... but I say such and such. Because that's his opponent and one of the main sources of this stuff, right? So do that and not something more like: "I'm an expert about things, so I already know everything there is to know about it. Never mind the faked image I included in this video about my official expertise on this. Nothing to see there, move along!"

    Shrug. Maybe he's correct. But apparently he missed that, officially.

    Debunked!
     
  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Except it was not faked at all. The earth is the correct size in that video. You can tell by the size of the continents. Or look at the full original video:
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    No it isn't. Also, your Youtuber claims that the camera was against the glass. But if that was the case for all the videos, then why can an astronaut's arm apparently be seen coming between the camera and the window in one of the outtakes? I thought that they and apparently your Youtuber had both claimed that the camera was against the window the whole time video of the earth was being shot and so forth.

    You can see that the continents are the correct size?

    I watched it. Is that where you're "seeing" that the continents are the correct size?
     
  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yes. See North America in the upper left.

    Also the size and distribution of the weather systems is entirely consistent with a full sized view.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  19. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Hard to see. I can imagine that it's there, though. So you think that is evidence that the camera was pressed up against the glass of the shuttle... I mean, space craft?

    Where did the second image come from and why does the earth seem to be a different shape?
     
  20. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    I don't know if anyone with a debunking mentality is even taking the time to actually watch Sibrel's documentary like I just took the time to watch that "debunking." (What's worse, taking the time to watch a conspiracy theory about that or its debunking? Only time will tell, I'd imagine.) But it basically looks like a continuous reel where they turn the lights on within the space craft and the camera is, indeed, far away from the window.

    If that's authentic, then there's no need to try to imagine things about the correct size of continents that you can hardly even see and so forth. Instead it would seem that unless Sibrel faked a video, NASA faked a video. Whoever faked something, one could still probably imagine a way that people made it through the Van Allen Belt and went to the moon anyway. So there is that.
     
  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member


    What does it matter if it was pressed up against the glass? The point is that it's the correct size.

    The second image is a composite of Terra satellite images. The Earth looks a different shape because of the different position of the terminator (day/night shadow delimiter). This varies by season and time of day.
    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Earth_Pacific_jul_30_2010.jpg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Why do you suppose that your Youtube debunker tried to argue that it wasn't pressed against the glass if it doesn't matter? Did you watch the video that you cited?

    Based on a composite of images from satellites orbiting around the earth?
     
  23. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    Sibrel's claim is egregious. If the spacecraft was in reality 100 times closer to Earth than in those video sequences, and at a typical velocity to remain in LEO (over 17000 mph), you would conspicuously see movement in the backdrop of Earth. There's no way you're not going to notice such a thing over the course of ten minutes or more. Orbital sunrises/sunsets occur at a rate of one every 45 minutes.

    Real-time views for comparison are available in this clip of Smithsonian's Oasis Earth:

     
    • Like Like x 1
  24. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    That's not an arm, it's the edge of a window. You have to remember, Sibrel's knowledge of Apollo vehicles isn't any better than his understanding of spaceflight. (Pay special attention to the pictures.)

    It makes no sense to keep taking incorrect claims (like Sibrel's) at face value when they're demonstrably wrong.

    Edit: Fixed typo.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Because someone claimed it was, or claimed someone said it was. He's just debunking stuff.

    Yes, exactly.
     
  26. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Thanks. I'll be able to debunk that myself now.
     
  27. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    The real hilarity ensues a bit farther down, and is directly relevant to the segments you linked earlier. As Windley writes:

    (Emphasis mine.) That's one hell of an error. I'm frankly stunned that Sibrel was so oblivious to these details, even in his unwavering zeal to promote an alternative history.
     
  28. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    The cloud patterns of the earth taken at the time were matched to the recorded weather systems.
    You can watch the whole sequence of pictures taken from Apollo of earth receding until they arrived at the moon.
    eg... from HERE
    [​IMG]

    to HERE...
    [​IMG]

    To maintain a claim of fakery at this point in history is so beyond [...]. (sorry Mick, but JESUS!)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 2
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member


    I know. But remember, that's also how they feel about us. :)

    Also remember we are dealing with concepts and science that not everyone is familiar with, nor can they necessarily grasp it quickly. Witness the question about if a composite of satellite images would accurately represent the size of the Earth. Not everyone's brains are wired the same way. Some people are more textual than visual, and when visual more 2D than 3D, and when 3D limited to a range of scales.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member


    Heh. Truly, that was the plan, according to Mr. C.

    I left the Ozzy ref out at the last moment since I didn't think it would be recognized, so I'm glad you got it.

    That was a slight hint right there, the bit about the Uncle Al's plan. I know you'll think it vague, but it would be a lot clearer if you had the libretto. Honest.

    That's where I screwed up. I assumed that you and others were aware of this part of the tale, given that you were so into the space stuff. My bad.

    Now that this thread had finally got to tech stuff you guys excel in, I’ll just leave ya to it because I’m not a nuts and bolts guy; I’m more interested in what the nuts and bolts hold together. Instead of how they fly, I’m more interested in why they fly and for who.

    Mick obviously doesn’t want me going there and appears itching to ban me, so I’ll just leave you this last ‟slightest hint” and you can decide if you want to go further with it.

    That was not just a shout out and PAN wasn't only an acronym. Grieves was on the mark there, even if he minimized the import of Mr. C. and his ‟junk.” I'm not pretending to know what it was; just saying what it wasn't--an accident or coincidence.

    And it most certainly is connected to Ozzy and the stuff Mick deems of no substance re the music biz. That's why I almost choked when I saw your post. I figured it was either masterfully played or the most amazing coincidence.

    Either way, there was more going on at Jack Parsons Labs, as it was referred to by some, than is commonly recognized, so you might find it interesting.

    "But I say that that perfect image in the heart of man is patterned by the awful lust in space-time that shapes all women, the insatiable and eternal lust of Pan that is BABALON."
    -J.W. Parsons

    From the Intro of the winner of The 1998 NASA-Ames Space Settlement Design Contest:

    The authors chose Babylon as the name for the space settlement. Babylon was chosen for two reasons. First, Babylon means "gate of the heavens." The first step to exploring the stars, the heavens, is a colony in orbit. The second meaning is more metaphoric. The biblical Babylon Project was the construction of the tower of Babel. This construction required the cooperation of thousands of people over a great span of time. They didn’t have to challenge the linguistic, national, and cultural barriers that humanity faces today. Since this legendary project, all humanity has never worked together towards one common goal. It is our hope that when a colony is built, it will be the result of the cooperation of the entire human race. If such cooperation could be set in motion, and maintained, nothing would stop the colony from being built.

    Conclusion:
    Humanity stands on the edge of a new frontier. Nothing in this proposal is impossible. Indeed, all that is really necessary is the ambition, the vision, and leadership. The authors believe that their generation has these qualities. As in ancient Babylon, humanity may once again unite together into a project of epic proportions "Look, they are one people, and they have all one language; and this is only the beginning of what they will do; nothing that they propose to do will now be impossible for them" Genesis XI, 6 http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/Contest/Results/98/winner/
     
  31. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I'm itching for you to make a clear point, is all.

    Regarding the symbolism of the 1998 contest. What about all the other years?

    http://settlement.arc.nasa.gov/Contest/
    Sometime a Babylon reference is just a Babylon 5 reference.
     
  32. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    What is any of that supposed to mean, Joe? I see you stringing together numerous vague ideas but you're not coherently presenting what you're actually thinking, let alone an underlying rationale. It reads like gibberish. Seriously.

    Even if we were to accept at face value that Parsons said or wrote that statement (and ignoring any possible context), why do you think there's a relationship between the quote and a title some 9th grade kids gave their contest project some fifty years later?

    Are you ever going to be specific, or is this destined to be a perpetual guessing game?

    If you're honestly interested in a discussion, prove it.
     
  33. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    Can you back up ANYTHING you say? You just throw statements out there. Obviously no one else is on the same page as you. Explain.
     
  34. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member

    That's exactly what I'm trying to find out. That's why I want to discuss it. It's a crazy story and I want to explore what it means. It's why I'm here. I found this place by accident, but I stayed because if there's any place where I am going to get the necessary data, this is it because you all know a lot more about the stuff you know than I do.

    Things got off to a bad start and it's my fault. I never should have gotten into the moon thing because it was an off-topic aside and I had no idea it would lead to this.

    I fucked up. I own it.

    I know, Cos. It does sound like gibberish and it is just word salad. But it's also clear as a bell. Let's turn it around and maybe it will make more sense. You said this elsewhere:

    "Mr. Sibrel claims that both the inner and outer round bezels of the hatch window . . ."

    Now, imagine getting this in reply: What is any of that supposed to mean, Cos? I see you stringing together numerous vague ideas but you're not coherently presenting what you're actually thinking, let alone an underlying rationale. It reads like gibberish. Seriously.

    You would think I was a complete dolt. And maybe I am, because it's exactly how I see it. Complete gibberish. It isn't even wrong, as Pauli put it. It's incomprehensible to me because I lack the necessary context to decode it, but you and Mick and others understand it completely.

    I wouldn't think of jumping in and accusing you both of being vague or difficult because you are talking about something I'm not familiar with.

    So, please, Cos. If you want to go here, I'm all good. But you need to know a little about bevels and who Sibrell is, so to speak. I'm happy to provide all the info I can, and I do have a lot. But ya gotta step back a bit and let me do it, ok?

    I really can clear up your confusion about what I'm saying if you would only let me assemble the case before tearing into it. After it's assembled, go at it hammer and tong. That's exactly what I'm looking for.

    That's precisely it, Cos. Without the context there is no reason to believe there is a relationship. With the context, however, the picture changes completely. That's my point and exactly what I want to talk about. Trust me, with more context, your statements here sound like, well, whatever I might have to say about Sibrell's bevels. :) What I put there about Pan and the high school stuff is only the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

    Maybe it's all utter bullshit. I'm hoping it is. But without seeing the edifice, there's no way to tell, and insisting that edifice isn't there doesn't get the job done because a whole lot of people who are smarter and more informed than me have been pointing straight at it.

    I see what they are talking about now, but I didn't see it before because I routinely dismissed both the issues and the folks talking about them because I didn't subscribe to their views and thought they were exaggerating. Well, after looking into it in far greater detail, I couldn't have been more wrong. I didn't have the full picture, so I was basing all of my conclusions on an incomplete data set.

    Yes.

    Seriously. If you won't let me add the context, or refuse to admit the existence of that context,
    it will be a perpetual guessing game. If you let me add the context, you will see that I actually am being quite specific.

    That's just it. I may be right or I may be wrong. But either way, the points are crystal clear--if you know about the bevels. ;)

    But I don't want to munge up this thread any more than I have, so if we go there, it should be in a new thread so as not to munge up this one.
     
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  36. cosmic

    cosmic Senior Member

    You're not even presenting a story. What you're typing out is so nondescript that I don't have a clue what you're trying to convey. Please don't waste more time posting excuses. Type out thorough explanations so that readers can clearly understand what you're thinking, and why. If you're unwilling to do so, no actual discussion will ever take place.

    No, the statement I made in response to Sibrel's claims is nothing like your waffling. In that segment of the thread we already had explicit claims stemming from Sibrel's interpretation of events, never mind the fact that they're wrong. They were clear. My responses are properly focused and include specific technical information directly refuting Sibrel's claims. You have no justification for attempting to suggest my replies are remotely nebulous like yours.

    It would be truly silly for you to do so, since my posts are clear enough that readers with no knowledge of the Apollo program, Sibrel's conspiracy claims, or spaceflight in general, would still be able to follow and understand what's been written. I've also linked appropriate reference material so that nobody has to take my word for it. They can look it up for themselves. Obviously you're not providing readers with any such tools.

    I'm not preventing you from stating anything.

    We don't really know what's on your mind, and that won't change unless you spell it out. Why are you making it so unnecessarily difficult?

    Great. Will you ever be providing any?

    If you know what "it" is, you'll need tell the rest of us. Those of us following the thread have no clue what "it" is.

    You're being deliberately evasive and vague, not specific.

    Why, doesn't it have to do with the Apollo program, or have you changed your mind?
     
    • Like Like x 2
  37. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member

    Actually, I spent a lot of time chopping that down. :)

    I'm in a bind here, Mick. You want brevity. I go there. I get jacked for not saying anything. In fact, I've said a ton. But it hasn't been unpacked. I get grief for not being clear, so I start to explain, and then I get popped for being too verbose.

    And now after putting all that time into chopping it down, the first thing I see from the person I respond to is I'm still being vague and unclear and not saying anything.
     
  38. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    By brevity I don't just mean less words. I mean clearly and concisely stating your point.

    For example, instead of this:
    write:

     
  39. Joe Newman

    Joe Newman Active Member

    That's what I would have done had I not spent the previous two days getting harassed by a select few here, one of whom routinely posts inaccurate comments and facts.

    After all that, when that person once more dismissed something out of hand and made an inaccurate assertion as support, I pointed it out.

    I did it sarcastically because I was tired of being pummeled by this person and others. It's hard playing 5 on 1 and getting elbowed constantly and then getting called for the foul when I push back.
     
  40. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    So this thread is about the reason they went to the moon, presumably sweeping aside the accepted notion of it being part of the political and technological context of the time.
    So, do you think
    - they went to the moon to consult with our Reptilian Overlords and get their orders for the next phase of the plan for our planet and that's why they had to fake some footage to hide their presence
    or
    - the whole 10+ year space program was an elaborate Masonic Magick Ritual enacted to symbolise the Illuminati's institution of their official Forth Reich reign which is also why they hired ex-nazi scientists.

    Gathering from the hints you drop I suspect it's the latter, but why would they have the need to fake any footage for that?

    Or is the fake footage (which you haven't identified yet) to hide the unexpected appearance of intelligent alien presences?