1. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    I've already begun to see claims online, mainly Twitter and YouTube, that the live feed that we received from Elon Musk's roadster in orbit are faked. The claims are baseless, and revolve, quite literally, around "this looks super fake. It just doesn't look real." To that, I say nonsense. Elon described it perfectly in his post-launch press conference: "You can tell it's real because it looks so fake." He then went on to explain that we have CGI that is better than the stream we got, and that in space, objects appear too crisp. This is a result of the lack of atmosphere.

    But, there are ways to prove that this footage is real. The footage of Earth was mainly showing the area over Australia. Using the Australian Bureau of Meteorology's High Definition satellite images page, we can compare the cloud cover data to the video taken of the roadster. Note: The BOM unfortunately does not show data further back than 24 hours, but I snapped a screenshot which I'll link. I also requested information of the data for the time period from them, but I am yet to hear back.

    Let's compare. First, a screenshot of the live feed. This was taken 3 hours and 40 minutes into the live feed. [​IMG] ]

    The live feed began about 15 minutes after launch, so this snapshot is from 4 hours after launch. Launch was at 15:45 ET on Tuesday, so this photo is at 19:45 ET on Tuesday, or 11:45 Australian Eastern Time (AET) on Wednesday. Now, the furthest back image I could get from the BOM's website was 13:30 AET on Wednesday, but this still works. This image, of the cloud cover, was taken 2 hours AFTER the the image I linked above was taken. [​IMG]

    Now compare the similarities. I outlined them!
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    The clouds match with almost entirely 100% accuracy (some changes since they're 2 hours apart).

    So yes, this footage really is real.
     
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  2. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    I’ve also seen many tweets on twitter. One certain tweet I saw, from user "forever flat," said



    These are all easy to debunk. For the ISS, satellites, and space debris, these shouldn't be seen unless you know precisely where the objects are, and have an excellent zoom on your camera. Space is gigantic and the space between each satellite is monstrous. Satellites are usually a few km apart at any given moment, and are purposely orbiting Earth this way as to prevent collisions. Satellites are also much dimmer than the massive orb that is Earth. Cameras must adjust their exposure accordingly, so they limit their exposure. This means only really bright/close objects can be seen. Thus, satellites can't.


    The oblate spheroid is visible, the change in Earth is just small. Too small to see with the naked eye. It’s estimated that the bulge at the equator is just 42km. This means the diameter of Earth at the equator is 42 km more than the diameter at the poles. Thus, the change is .3%. Too small to really see.

    For the escape velocity and 20km/h, I didn't really understand, because 20km/h isn't that fast, and escape velocity wasn't achieved until after the feed was cut out.

    No stars is also easy. It's the same as satellites. The Earth is just too bright for the cameras. The cameras expose to see Earth, not the stars. It's like trying to take a photo of stars at night with a light pole in your camera's view.
     
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  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    You can also compare it to images from Himawari-8, a Japanese weather satellite that takes photos every 10 minutes from a geostationary position over the western Pacific. This is for 00:40 UTC, which is 19:40 ET:

    upload_2018-2-8_17-48-32.


    Obviously the images are taken from different angles so you can't overlay them exactly, but this shows pretty clearly that the cloud patterns are a match:

    roadster1. roadster2.


    Edit: I'm not sure if that's quite the right time, looking at the position of the day/night terminator. It looks like a better match about an hour or so later, but this might just be an artefact of the different viewing angle. I don't think I messed up the time zone conversions.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I saw something floating into view Tuesday evening when I looked at the live feed on youtube. I posted it in a private message 9:46 pm. Although I don't know the launch schedule, or if its a piece of rocket or something.
    Capture.JPG
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Another Himawari comparison, using a still from a little earlier in the mission:

    roadster3. roadster4.
     
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  6. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member


    There’s a good chance that’s a lens flare. It has a green tint to it, and it’s pointing to a bright reflection on the car, underneath the side view mirror. See it moves relative to that.
     
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  7. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    maybe but it floated past the car and got bigger as it went. should have grabbed more screen shots, didn't really think it might be 'a thing'.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I'm pretty sure it's a lens flare. It's in the right place, lining up with the brightest reflection on the car if you mirror the image through the lens axis. Would need to check the video to be sure.

    roadsterref1. roadsterref2.
     
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  9. StarGazer

    StarGazer Member

    It starts around 2:40:23 into the video and it's a lens flare. You can see the source of the flare coming from the left side near Starman's left hand.

    Lens Flare Combo.
     
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  10. DavidB66

    DavidB66 Member

    Sorry I can't give references, but I recall that some of the SpaceX footage showed what seemed to be small particles floating around the outside. Predictably, some people have claimed that these are air-bubbles in a water tank, like the one where NASA allegedly fake their space-walks. (Why SpaceX would want to put their fake rocket in a water tank is not explained.)
    If I recall correctly, similar 'floating' particles have been seen around other space vehicles. I think these have been plausibly explained as water droplets or ice particles coming off the outside of the vehicle, but I'd be grateful if anyone can confirm this.
     
  11. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    oh thanks! I thought that live link was live, so I didn't even try to look for it there. I did find a similar shape in another video clip (but it didn't move.. guess the rocket or whatever was turning a bit in mine). Ignore the graphics :) not needed now.
    iss2.JPG
     
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  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I saw those videos when looking for mine. look like dust to me.
    Capture.JPG
    Capture1.JPG
     
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  13. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Probably ice. Or maybe even dust. The car is being unevenly heated by the sun and bombarded with radiation.

    It's in near vacuum, so if a speck of something separates from the car then it's not going to get whipped away like it would on Earth. It just keeps going with the car, but has a small relative velocity away from it, so it slowly moves away.

    Looks odd because our brains don't do microgravity or near vacuum.
     
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  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I wonder if it's anything like a comet? Comets form tails from the solar wind, maybe this is something similar, but on a much smaller scale.
     
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  15. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Almost certainly dust or ice. As Mick said, the car is being heated unevenly. Many of the epoxies and rubber in the car are water-based, or have water on them. In darkness they could be frozen, and then hit with the sun they warm up.

    Of course, though, if it were bubbles, they wouldn’t be moving so smoothly. Bubble deform and wobble as a result of water. They also all move in the same direction: toward the surface. The particles in the video aren’t shimmering, or wobbling. They mostly move up, but not all.
     
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  16. Tumeni

    Tumeni New Member

  17. StarGazer

    StarGazer Member

    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  18. Agent K

    Agent K Member

    Why does the Earth look bigger at 4:27:00 than at 3:45:00, while the car is the same size? And the lighting and clouds are different. Is the video at 4:27:00 taken with a different camera that's further from the car and zoomed in more to flatten the perspective? Does it make sense for the lighting and view of Earth to change in 42 minutes? What's Starman's trajectory? Not orbiting the Earth, right?
     
  19. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    The car's orbit wasn't circular, but elliptic. This means it gets closer to and further from the Earth, changing it's apparent size. The lighting and clouds are different because, as it orbits, it views a different area of the Earth. There were 3 cameras that showed the car, 2 showing the engine bell, and 1 inside the second stage's fuel tank.

    This 4-hour stream was only of Starman in Earth orbit. About 1-1.5 hours after the stream ended, the second stage burned again and sent it into a heliocentric orbit that ranged between .98 and 2.61 AU.
     
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  20. you really do have a faible for floating blobs in the background of videos, do you, deidre? ;)
     
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  21. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    :p Someday i'll say "what's this blob" and you guys will answer "It's a tesla roadster"
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2018
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  22. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    FWIW, I've been working at Elon's home for almost a year.
    Here is a photo I took with my cell, of this exact car (in his garage).
    Photo taken back in July 2017.
    This car disappeared (removed) from his garage about 2-3 months ago (?)...for reasons I didn't know until recently.
    It hasn't been seen there since.

    untitled-1455.
     
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  23. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    woah wait, you work at elon's home? How!? That's extremely awesome. I must know more if possible.
     
  24. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    This is the only photo I've posted online, of his home or his possessions.
    I understand and honor his right to privacy.
    I made an exception here, only to add circumstantial evidence to help remove internet rumors and conspiracy theories.

    I snapped the photo at the time, because I liked the car !!
    (not because it was his car)
     
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  25. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Ahh understandable. I will respect this. Still, very very cool! Congrats to you!
     
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  26. I had a look at the image taken right after the fairings were released, namely

    [​IMG]

    i found the GOES 16 view at the time of launch:

    [​IMG]

    I found the relevant cloud in the satellite image and compensated for the perspective:

    [​IMG]
     
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  27. StarGazer

    StarGazer Member

    I made 2 versions of the Earth to show the visual difference. One is a perfect sphere with radius 6371 km (3959 miles) and the other oblate spheroid with polar radius 6357 km (3950 miles) and equatorial radius 6377 km (3963 miles).

    Perfect VS Oblate.

    I'm not telling which one is which, it's up to you guys to spot the oblate ;).
     
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  28. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    Interesting to note... the color of the car seen in person, on earth, is called "midnight cherry". ( a deep red, almost burgundy)
    The images of it in orbit and lit by the sun, looks almost orange.

    Sunlight on earth has a blue hue cast due to the vast blue sky.
    I would expect colors "in space" to appear different, if that blue is removed.
    (and other atmospheric filtering of visual radiation through our atmosphere)

    Elon also added "atmospheric occlusion"...
    When I worked on Film and TV projects where realistic miniature sets were being filmed, one trick toward realism was to "add atmosphere" to the scene. Usually this is accomplished by filling the entire studio with "smoke" from a smoke machine.
    But there is no smoke in space.....usually ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
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  29. derwoodii

    derwoodii Senior Member

    Looks like they may have kept the gas pedal down a tad too long..

    Starman facing history's biggest detour as SpaceX's Tesla Roadster exceeds Mars orbit
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-08/spacex-starman-misses-mars-heading-to-asteroid-belt/9407678

    9407876-3x2-940x627.
     
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  30. StarGazer

    StarGazer Member

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  31. Agent K

    Agent K Member

    Yeah, but direct sunlight is more yellow on Earth, especially in the morning and evening when the sun is low, and it's much brighter than the sky. In space, the sun is white.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  32. Agent K

    Agent K Member

    Nice view of the Earth's reflection.

    [​IMG]
     
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  33. Gary Cook

    Gary Cook Active Member

    To be fair, all that proves is the car was at his house at some stage. No?
     
  34. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    Correct.
    If I see it again, I'll report back.
    It's just circumstantial.
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2018
  35. sharpnfuzzy

    sharpnfuzzy Member

    Anyone find more detailed info about any prep that the car went through? I'm curious if it still has all of its fluids. There's no gas (or oil?) but what about AC refrigerant and other coolants? I'm also assuming that they would have pre-deflated the tires?
     
  36. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I was wondering the same thing about the tyres. Although I imagine that even if the tyres were fully inflated, they would probably cope. After all, going from 1 atmosphere external pressure to hard vacuum is only adding about 15psi to the effective tyre pressure. That amount of overinflation wouldn't make the tyres explode. The ride might be a bit firm, though ;)
     
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  37. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    Which will also account for the massive understeer that takes it beyond the orbit of Mars. Goes to prove what us Brits have always said about American vehicles, great in a straight line, but lousy on corners. :p;):)
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2018
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  38. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

    Thousands of years from now scientists mangage to trace the source of the giant asteroid on a collision course with Earth and find it was knocked out of the asteroid belt by a chain of impacts starting from a chance encounter with an unusual object entering the belt...
     
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  39. sharpnfuzzy

    sharpnfuzzy Member

    Hmm, is it just me or do the tires look more "bowed" out than in the picture from @Leifer ?

     
  40. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Camera exposure. The camera is exposed to see the bright Earth, car, and sun, rather than the stars. It's effectively like trying to take a video of the stars at night with a bright light pointing at your camera. The camera will expose to see the big bright light, not the stars.