1. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    [Thread Split from https://www.metabunk.org/threads/de...-karen-brassards-lack-of-injuries.2952/page-2 ]


    If anyone has been kicked in the shin knows how much it hurts unless you train mauy Thai, then with shrapnel penetrating into the shin area no one would be standing, it would be agonizing pain. Adrenaline can not be used as a reason, I have seen fighters break shins and scream in pain, adrenaline from fighting didn't prevent pain, any injury to the shin will give you pain no matter who you are.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2015
  2. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    Really? When I did my medial ligament it was really painful and had to be helped of the field. I was on crutches straight away and for the next 6 weeks after, in my experience adrenaline didnt make pain magically go away.
     
  3. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    So are you saying any shin injury means you're incapacitated and cannot walk at all because of extreme pain? Any evidence for that other than when you banged your shin on the coffee table?
     
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  4. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    And in his it did. You can both be correct in your anecdotal experience.
     
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  5. occams rusty scissor

    occams rusty scissor Active Member

    Adrenaline and shock most certainly can mask pain. There are plenty of battlefield experiences to prove it. There are plenty of non battlefield experiences to prove it as well. Check out this story of a man in New Zealand who drove to a service station with a metal rod sticking out of his head:
    Snapping your shin in half is a different injury to having a foreign body embedded in flesh.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
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  6. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    download (12). download (13).
    These shin injuries look painful, I have done a little training and seen the shin injuries and the pain they cause from muay thai.
    Are you saying that shin injuries don't hurt? Including banging your shin on a coffee table or a tow ball on the back of your car, it always hurts or are you immune to shin pain?
     
  7. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    Its still going to hurt
     
  8. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    No, not even close to resembling anything I was saying.
    I'm saying, that you saying, that shin injuries always result in being unable to stand, is an opinion based on your anecdotal evidence, and is contradicted by other's anecdotal evidence, but more importantly, by the evidence of her injury and the fact that she *was* standing.
    It seems a little silly to argue that if she had a shin injury she would be unable to stand, therefore her standing proves she had no shin injury.
     
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  9. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    OK, yes you can be standing but you would at least be bent over rubbing it like you do when you bang your shin, head or elbow not completely ignoring it, you would roll your pants up straight away and tourniquet it like everyone else.
     
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  10. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    If you had shrapnel in your shin you would roll your pants up and tourniquet it like everyone else is what I mean
     
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  11. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    Well maybe you would, and maybe I would too, but she didn't, and the fact that she didn't proves nothing, so it's not really worth arguing over.

    I'm going to bed now so I won't be able to approve your posts for a while.
    (Your posts need to be approved probably because you've received warnings for being off-topic or not really up to general posting standards. It wears off eventually but try to make your posts count a little more by being more precise in your claims or including verifiable evidence with your arguments, and don't just argue from personal incredulity.)
     
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  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Watch the video of the skier I posted earlier. He had his calf sliced open, his hamstring tendon partially severed, and he got up, put his skis back on and skied down to the finish. And he didn't leave a "huge pool of blood" anywhere. There was only a small amount of blood on his leggings even several minutes later.

    Classic argument from incredulity: "I don't think the person should have acted like that, therefore they are faking it."
     
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  13. Freak

    Freak Active Member

    I got rear ended on my motorcycle a few years ago. Snapped my tibia and fibula in half. HORRIBLE "twisting" break. I couldn't stand on it, but not because of pain. I don't know if it was adrenaline, shock, a combination or something else, but I felt no pain what so ever in my leg. None. Even though I knew instantly it was broken. In fact when the paramedics were checking me out the only pain I was feeling was a sore neck because I was holding my head up.

    So no, it isn't always going to hurt.
     
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  14. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    I dare someone to fire a piece of shrapnel into someone's shin when they are not looking and see if they will be just standing there with their full weight on it and act like it's not even there, impossible!
    Think about it
     
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  15. RickSOG

    RickSOG New Member

    Were you drunk? Because that can contribute to not feeling pain also.
     
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  16. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    stop quoting me out of context. his WIFE .. THOUGHT he was bleeding to death so she was ignoring her injury.

    yup

    if I get blown up by a bomb, you better NOT stop and tourniquet your little shrapnel wound before checking on me... or I will nag at you about it for the rest of your life. (just saying) : )
     
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  17. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    Yes they hurt, but they are not always incapacitating, In my school days I was a bit of an athlete, I race walked (and threw the hammer - yes an odd combo, but there you go) In one race 10,000m I was badly spiked on the shin at the start, yup it hurt like hell, but only for a minute or so, I pushed on and still finished 7th, the adrenaline kept me going.
     
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  18. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    In 2002 Donovan McNabb fractured his shin bone in three places on the first drive of a game, and after going to the bench to get taped up, he returned to the game, passed for 255 yards and four touchdowns, took another sack, and at the end of the game fell down and couldn't walk for most of the next six weeks.

    And Jack Youngblood would call McNabb a pansy (well, he probably wouldn't, he's supposed to be a great guy, but if he did, there's not many people in the world qualified to disagree with him). In 1979, he had almost the same injury, finished the game, and then came back to play the NFC championship game and the Pro Bowl AND the Super Bowl, all on that broken shin bone. He got through it by intentionally hyperventilating and putting stress on the injury to get his adrenaline up before the game and keep it up when he wasn't on the field.


    Not all athletes are built euqal, but more importantly, not all injuries are equal. Joe Theismann also suffered a shin injury playing football in 1985, and his career ended right there, because it was not the same type of injury as McNabb's or Youngblood's. Theismann's is often cited as one of the most shocking and gruesome injuries in sports history, let alone his sport.

    Still, the adrenaline argument comes in here, too. He was able to get to his feet. He couldn't walk because the leg was too badly damaged, but after the initial pain, this is what he had to say:
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/17/AR2005111701635.html
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
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  19. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Freak's injury reminded me that my little sister broke her tibia and fibula in a twisting break when she was like 8 or 9 years old. She felt no pain, didn't even realize she was hurt and tried to stand up. She fell right back down when the bones slid past each other and made that leg a couple of inches shorter but it still didn't hurt.

    About 25 years ago I dislocated my left shoulder but it took a good 20 or 30 minutes before I felt any pain. Sliced the side of my pinkie finger fillet style when a glass I was washing broke but I didn't feel any pain until the doc stuck a needle into the wound to numb it before sewing it up. About 15 years ago I nearly cut the space between my nose and upper lip in half ( the philtrum ) when an abrasive cutting wheel kicked back and hit me in the face leaving a 1/8 inch wide gash, but it didn't hurt until the doc stuck a needle into it almost an hour later.

    The body has an amazing ability to block/mask the pain of traumatic injuries.
     
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  20. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    After an injury you cannot say that a person will be in agonising pain. Pain is a concept relative to the person as everyone has their own threshold. Most pain scales are numerical and based on self reporting, i.e. you go to hospital and the doctor asks "On a scale of 1 to 10 how much does it hurt when I squeeze these?" There are a number of scales that can be used, most of which are self reporting. Wiki gives some examples which goes to highlight how difficult it is to try to rate or even perceive anothers pain.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_scale#Numeric_Rating_Scale


    At the end of the day if we see someone who appears to be in great pain we empathise by placing our own experience over theirs, yet that experience may be greater or lesser than we actually think. Also, anecdotally, our pain thresholds can change with time. I have had a number of injuries that I have carried over time and since then I appear to have a greater threshold for pain. Again, purely anecdotally, but my ex wife had 5 children, 4 at home, but all only using nitrous oxide for pain relief even though the children were large. She could not understand why some women would need epidural blocks or other pain relief as her experience clouded her perception of others pain. I hope that makes sense
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
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  21. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    When all is said and done, a rational person acknowledges that people
    have significantly different responses to injury
    (pain not being fully felt, initially, or emergency circumstances compelling
    them to "soldier through" the
    pain because a crisis pushes them to)
    so claims that any particular person "wouldn't act that way"
    are understood to be simply groundless...
    never mind totally worthless as serious 'proof' that a real life tragedy didn't really happen.





    p.s. Sounds like somebody may be volunteering their shin for some science. :p
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2015
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  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    You would be incredulous if told someone might not notice they had a knife in their neck, or a nail in their skull, but it happens.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1248155/The-mugging-victim-inch-knife--didnt-notice.html
    [​IMG]
    and more than once:
    http://articles.philly.com/2000-03-04/news/25604306_1_knife-assailant-woman
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-5-inch-nail-head-doesnt-notice-24-HOURS.html
    [​IMG]

    So this is all an illustration of how incredulity is not an argument.
     
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  23. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    The brain does not have any pain receptors so it makes you think what some people may have stuck in there.
     
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  24. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    At least Mr. Autullo seemed well grounded when he got to the hospital.

    I'm here all week. Tomatoes are on sale next door.
     
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  25. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    Even people with broken necks or backs can carry on doing what they are doing despite horrific and life threatening injuries.

    Remember Bert Trautmann and the 1956 FA Cup final?
     
  26. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    So that supposedly trumps the myriad of wartime (and other) stories saying the opposite? I supposed I should cite examples, but I just don't care to bother.
     
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  27. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    There's a joke just about every medical show has done about pain scale reporting and how hard it is for doctors, let alone different people, to understand each other's levels of pain. The usual setup is two patients in adjoining rooms. In one will be a guy with a cut on his hand or arm getting two stitches or or just a cleaning swab saying, "Ten ten ten oh god nothing has ever hurt this bad ever," and in the next there'll be a stern-looking older (frequently Asian for some reason) gentleman with a knife in his shoulder saying, "Four."
     
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  28. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    I know somebody that got shot by a neighbor that was target shooting without a proper backstop. She walked home and drove to the hospital to have the bullet removed.
     
  29. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    I'm a goal keeper. Opposing team had their school's heavy weight wrestler playing striker (bunch of bash-ball wallies). Fatass fell on my extended leg and "did my MCL". I finished the game but laid out the rest of the season. Broke my hand on the goal post once. Finished three games before I decided that it was more than a bruise.

    Will say that when I broke a kid's shin clear through in a collision, he went down and stayed down. But that is different than having shrapnel in the leg isn't it. His leg was structurally incapable of supporting any weight. Looked like he had two knees. I get the sweats thinking about what his leg looked like. My shin swelled so badly from that collision that I had to cut my sock on that leg and tape on my broken shin guard. I finished the tournament since my leg was intact even if there was a busted vein in there somewhere causing a lot of pain and swelling.
     
  30. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    People often think that the more sever the injury, the more sever the pain. I think only true to a degree, because pain is a mechanism that evolved (partly) to warn you that you are about to hurt yourself, not that you just hurt yourself. During evolution of humans, people who lost a leg would be very unlikely to survive, and of those that did then having incapacitating pain would not be helpful.

    Worst pain I ever had was when I had a root canal and a hole at the base of my gum, and I decided some mouthwash might help. So that was basically like pouring alcohol on an exposed nerve and a new reference point for 10 was indelibly ripped into my brain with white hot steel claws. That was 20 years ago, and I don't think I've been above 6 since.

    And that wasn't even really an injury.
     
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  31. Redwood

    Redwood Active Member

    My uncle was shot by a sniper on Saipan in WWII and didn't even realize it at first. The bullet clipped the top of his lung. I'm pretty sure his adrenaline was flowing since two other G.I.s had just gotten bullets through the head. It was only when he saw his own blood that he knew he was shot.
     
  32. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    I think there has been enough anecdotes on here refuting your absolute assertions on what you think is and is not too painful to endure.

    One point I think you missed is context - in isolation a papercut can have me dancing around like a dervish, but in combat or traumatic (by which I mean sudden or unexpected) injuries in which other jeopardies are present, other things can take priority and your eye off the ball.
     
  33. Freak

    Freak Active Member

    No, I was not drunk. Nor had I been drinking.
     
  34. Pigeonkak

    Pigeonkak Member

    RickSOG, I would like to dispute your claims regarding shin injuries with my own personal and anecdotal experiences.

    My experience with leg injuries is extensive. I broke my left fibula and tibula playing rugby, and felt no dicernable pain. The bones broke badly enough for me to need temporary wires to hold the bones in place while healing. I felt no discernible pain. It only started to hurt after the surgery the next day. So there, it is possible to break a bone that badly and not feel significant pain.

    My cousins experience: He broke his leg during a rugby match and finished the game. And as a flyhalf, he was the kicker. So there, you can perform beyond simply walking around with a broken leg bone.

    I was a professional Muay Thai fighter, in Thailand. You always feel getting kicked in the shins. Anyone who tells you otherwise is wrong. The reality is, you just get over it. This is exactly what Karen Brassard did. She saw her husband in trouble and simply ignored or failed to acknowledge her injury. For her, it was mind over matter.
     
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