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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    20160809-100612-cp0ae.
    A much shared image on Facebook claims to show a comparison between the revitalization of Hiroshima after the atomic bombing of 1945, and the decline of Detroit since 1945.

    However, it's not at all hard to find recent photos of Detroit that very closely resemble the "Hiroshima" photo, for example. http://www.aerialpics.com/E/nightskyline.html

    [​IMG]

    Of course this does not mean that Detroit does not have significant problems with urban blight, nor does it say the Democrat administration is blameless in regard to this. However it does mean that the photo comparison is very misleading.

    But what are the photos actually showing? For a start, the 2010 "Hiroshima" photo is actually Yokohama, near Tokyo. It's 400 miles from Hiroshima.

    Source: https://www.flickr.com/photos/winstontan/16100145139


    The Detroit 1945 photo is of Navin Field (later known as Tiger Stadium) in 1935, not 1945. [​IMG]
    Source: http://www.hourdetroit.com/core/pag...s-of-the-Detroit-Tigers-1920-1950/&mode=print

    Tiger stadium was actually demolished in 2009, so we can't do a direct comparison, the area now looks like this:
    20160809-101900-rn0ja.

    But a much better comparison would be the actual Detroit baseball stadium, Comerica Park, which seems to be doing just as well as in the 1935 image:

    [​IMG]
    Source: IFG

    The 2010 photo of Detroit is actually 2013, and it shows the Packard Automotive Plant, on the East Side of Detroit:
    20160809-104821-11ily.
    Source: Christian Science Monitor/Getty Images

    That site is currently being cleaned up for redevelopment, part of a gradual revitalization of the Detroit area:
    http://www.detroitnews.com/story/bu...it-packard-plant-fernando-palazuelo/17438107/


    20160809-105619-ixjtj.

    Coincidentally, in the upper right of the actual Hiroshima 1945 photo:[​IMG]

    There is now a demolished baseball stadium, the Hiroshima Municipal Stadium, which was demolished in 2012, almost exactly the same as Detroit.

    20160809-113107-nbfxa.

    If we are to take the same approach as the misleading meme, the area in Hiroshima now looks like this:
    [​IMG]
    Source
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
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  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A methodology note: The images in the meme are small and have been squished vertically. So to do a reverse image search you need to screen capture a cropped region and then stretch it. There are various ways of doing this. I use Monosnap for OSX, which lets you crop out a region, and then stretch it, and finally drag right into Google Images.

    [​IMG]
     
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  3. How could the fate of a city which exports all over the world be attributed solely to it's government. If anything the willingness to let cities rise and fall without undue government intervention is the part of capitalism which makes the most sense. New orleans and the Army corp of Engineers would be a better example of a city damaged by government programs.
     
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  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Because Democrats are the Handout Kings. Handouts make people lazy and attracts more 'undesirables' who want free stuff too. Too many undesirables in an area causes slums and decay and debt.

    I think that's the thinking anyway.

    edit: oh and businesses move away because the taxes are too high. They can find cheaper places to set up shop.
     
  5. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    This was the case in Michigan at several points, but it falls to the state. Detroit could basically free ride an industry, but that only goes so far since only part of the property taxes are controlled locally and as far as I can tell Detroit is like Saginaw in that the (tiny) local income tax is individual only and not businesses. If I'm misreading, local income tax is still a tiny part of the package. The real incentives have to come from the state.

    When Engler decided Michigan had to stop being a "single crop economy" Detroit's incentives didn't matter, the state incentives went away and even if Detroit gave the best incentives it possibly could plenty of other states and countries were wiling to give a better deal.
     
  6. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    you pay individual income tax to your towns/cities? we only pay property tax here to towns/cities...as individuals.
     
  7. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    Not all cities, I'm safe where I am but in Saginaw proper there is.
     
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  8. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A new version of this meme:
    20170123-155136-19myp.

    Again, a cherry picked comparison, the street scene is of Ouelette Ave, on the south side.

    [​IMG]

    It's still a similar district today:

    20170123-155900-skuwp.
    (note the building with the sprite in the far distance in both photos, that's the Penobscot Building across the river.)

    The photo of the derelict store is at 5723 Chene street, across the river, about four miles away. That appears the same now in Google Street view, but many of those old buildings are being demolished.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
  9. Freak

    Freak Active Member

    It's across the river alright. Ouelette and Wyandotte its in Canada, not Detroit.

    In the old pic on the right is a sign that reads "Tunnel to Detroit".

    To be fair, Detroit IS a craphole.
     
  10. brass

    brass New Member

    I am not going to directly address the photos, as they aren't comparable.

    The statement given by the set of images is that Hiroshima has gone from total destruction to a functioning and growing metropolis in the past 50 years:
    From: http://population.city/japan/hiroshima/



    From the same source, here is Detroit's population:
    http://population.city/united-states/detroit/


    The photos may be misleading, however, the facts are not. Debunking only photos of particular sections of a cities in a different hemisphere under different "Deterioration Conditions" is simple. Debunking the concept portrayed is not so simple. The concept portrayed may be a bit histrionic, but it is accurate.

    If we are going to set about The Truth in things we see, I would like to join this site as a contributing member, intellectually and financially if needed. However, if this site is going to be run like Snopes, where research stops as soon as a "'desirable' debunking" occurs, I'll withdraw.
     
  11. brass

    brass New Member

  12. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    What?!?
    The photos are misleading, but they are the only premises on which the hyper-partisan "conclusion" is based. :eek:
    Ugly assertions--based on deceptive or entirely absent evidence--are mere pretense...bloviating.
    (Scalia would've called it "interpretive jiggery-pokery." :)

    And you appear to be introducing a new and dubious definition of good: rising population (?)
    (are you aware that the current president is determined to build a $25 billion wall in hopes of retarding the population?)
    Did the liberalism of Boston & New York City cripple their population, too?

    I honestly don't know what "If we are going to set about The Truth in things we see" means...so, uh...

    As for Snopes, it's been a mainstay in my bookmarks for two decades.
    Please share the sites you believe have a better track record.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017 at 11:45 PM
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  13. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Metabunk doesnt debunk concepts or theories. Metabunks unique focus is specific claims of evidence.


    There is nothing in the Opening Post meme that says anything about 'population numbers'. The claim of evidence in the meme is urban blight.

    And if you want to get into 'technical concepts' ... we havent had 65 years to 'come back' from Democrat control of Detroit yet.
     
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  14. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    Sorry to add even more criticism, but please at least cast a cursory eye over any sources you provide as evidence, not just pick the first Google result. While intuitively I'd guess Detroit likely does have a higher crime rate than Hiroshima, a source that conducts only on-line surveys, and acknowledges it has virtually no data to boot, is unlikely to reliably quantify by how much.



    Numbeo.

    Ray Von
     
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