Tags:
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yeah, that's getting repeated a lot. However Bociurkiw really isn't seeing anything that's not in the Ackkermans photos.

    If it was a missile, with thousands of fragments detonated some distance from the plane, then of course some of the hole will look like bullet holes, but there's a wide variety in hole shapes and sizes that seem to suggest a variety of irregular shaped projectiles.

    [​IMG]

    Now some holes do superficially look like exit holes, but look at the hole in the green substrate here:
    [​IMG]
    That looks like an entry hole. It also looks like it's steel (there's some rust around the edges).

    I think what is happening there is the projectile, combined with the aluminum skin, partially exploded, and pushed up the skin. Compare with these videos of bullets hitting various things, note the extreme blowback even when the bullet passes through the target.


    [​IMG]

    And notice in the video just how nice and regular the bullet holes are, nothing at all like what we see on MH17.
     
    • Informative Informative x 3
  2. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Could it also be the result of the explosive decompression pushing that metal out?

    The fragment goes in making a small hole but the air rushing out gets between the layers and pushes the metal out.
     
  3. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    We should also keep in mind that a proximity warhead will also have diffraction loading. This is a good link that discusses the different energies right down to the shrapnel, and what is needed to take down an aircraft and what the effects are.
    http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/dam_crit/dam_crit.htm
    http://fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/fun/part13.htm
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
    • Informative Informative x 1
  4. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    "Machine Gun" snippet is now on You Tube.

     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    Michael Bociurkiw has used this description before. Article from July 24th.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/mh17-pieces-with-shrapnel-like-holes-osce-says-1406230555
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    See, this is what really irks me: People using phrases like "analysis of clear facts/clear evidence/30mm calibre/ there is only one conclusion"

    Some guy has seen some pictures on a laptop screen and has the case sown up. Why bother with an investigation then? From my extremely limited armchair investigation of the images, I see no evidence of cannon fire, but plenty of evidence of fragmentation damage. I speak as someone that had scooped up a lot of broken metal from explosives, and even so I'm not prepared to commit myself to a cause from looking at a few snapshots.

    Generally speaking there are three types of Aircraft rounds, FAP type (Frangible Armour Piercing) API (Armour Piercing Incendiary) and HE (High Explosive) and variations of these, and they would indeed shred the soft skin of a 777 that is not designed to take any type of hostile damage. But for this to be the case, a whole new set of variables need to be met, and they would indeed include fragments of the rounds themselves being embedded in the harder parts of the aircraft. Then you have the air-crew, that armourers, the aircraft itself etc, and we are now in multiple people all sworn to silence, which as we know is problematic in the modern media world...
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Juha

    Juha Member

    For reference 30mm cannon round from A-10.
    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  8. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    I noticed this on PPRuNE forum. Possible missile O-ring or part of MH17?
    upload_2014-7-31_8-55-51.


    https://secure.flickr.com/photos/jeroenakkermans/14678873646/in/set-72157645790319631

    http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-51.html#post8585622

    http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-53.html#post8586368

    http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/543733-mh17-down-near-donetsk-53.html#post8586404
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    My apologies as I believe someone posted this link before but I could not find it...but someone I know is pushing this guy's story I am fairly certain its complete bunk.

    what is MB's take:


    http://www.anderweltonline.com/wiss...lysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/


     
  10. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    I'd say it's not credible at all. The Russian Presidential airplane:

    [​IMG]

    Looks nothing at like the Malaysia Airlines paint scheme....oh, and the Russian airplane (Ilyushin Il-96-300) has two extra engines!

    Hardly likely an experienced fighter pilot would possibly mistake a B-777 in broad daylight (nor, at night for that matter...).


    So, the "speculation" of 30mm cannon fire is not plausible...oh, and there is actually no evidence to support this claim.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Useful Useful x 1
  11. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    If I remember correctly, Obama and Putin were on the phone when this happened discussing the first round of sanctions that only the US went ahead with. While they were on the phone (before Obama's fund raising speech) in NY, I believe, Putin alerted the President that there was a downed plane in the Ukraine, and that he had to go to sort this out. Now how could Putin be on the phone with the President when this occurred if he was on a plane, and secondly if Putin was in the vacinity of this plane coming down I'm pretty sure the Russian Government would've went on high alert. I don't believe the story for a second, it was propaganda that RT news was spewing a day after the accident to combat western media.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
  12. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    Not too mention it would be national suicide for the Ukraine if they did shoot down the plane of a PM, President or King of another nation. There is no way in hell they would've shot it down even if Putin was flying in a bright pink plane with a bullzeye on it. lol
     
  13. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    It should also be noted that SU-25's are specifically for "ground" attacks. They aren't designed to be a fighter jet.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Ray Von Geezer

    Ray Von Geezer Senior Member

    Also, the Russians said the Su-25 was 3-5km away from MH-17, if it was closer I'm pretty sure they'd have said so. Would I be right in thinking that hitting even something the size of an airliner from that distance with a cannon would be a feat of Skywalkeresque proportions?

    " You can see the entry and exit holes. The edge of a portion of the holes is bent inwards. These are the smaller holes, round and clean, showing the entry points most likeley that of a 30 millimeter caliber projectile. The edge of the other, the larger and slightly frayed exit holes showing shreds of metal pointing produced by the same caliber projectiles."

    He seems to be saying that not only was there an explosion from inside, but that the same piece of metal shows both entry and exit holes, meaning the plane would have had to be attacked from two sides? Unless it rolled presenting the other side as a target.

    Ray Von
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    To be fair, he is suggesting the shrapnel patterns has he described them is evidence.

    I am skeptical that his interpretation is correct but I am not a ballistics expert and wondered if others had commented on his interpretation yet.
     
  16. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

  17. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    • Useful Useful x 1
  18. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

  19. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member

    Pretty sure that's doable these days
     
  20. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    Explosive decompression like this is a Hollywood thing. It doesn't actually happen.
    http://www.discovery.com/tv-shows/mythbusters/videos/explosive-decompression-minimyth.htm
    It's pretty severe, and you don't want to be in the closest seat, but aside from the plastic facade on the interior walls there's no damage to the plane's structure from escaping air, it's just not that powerful. And the more punctures there are the less severe it becomes, as air is escaping through all the holes instead of just one like in the video.

    You still get blowback like that in shrapnel or bullet holes with no pressure difference. It's just how the physics works when two pieces of metal hit at high enough speeds that they start behaving more like liquids than solids.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. Juha

    Juha Member

    30mm cannon HE damage. Even 20mm cannon holes does not exist at MH17.

    [​IMG]
     
    • Informative Informative x 5
  22. Juha

    Juha Member

  23. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    "Juha", can you say that those two photos were taken "in situ" at the MH17 (or, 'MAS17') crash site?

    Can you provide confirmation?

    EDIT: Because, those (and the post above) are great at disputing the "30mm cannon shoot-down" scenario!
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2014
  24. Juha

    Juha Member

    No, I didn't mean that they are from site. Just showing the pictures from pprune.

    No idea where the pictures are taken from and as default, don't suppose that they are from site. :)
     
  25. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    YOU of course mean "PPruNe"?

    http://www.pprune.org/
     
  26. Juha

    Juha Member

    Of course. Pardon my English. :)
     
  27. Henk

    Henk New Member

    • Disagree Disagree x 3
  28. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    It's definitely not 'confirmation' of bullet holes - it's just a repeat of the statement that it looks similar to bullet holes, discussed in this post already - #119
    That site is also just another conspiracy content farm.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  29. Juha

    Juha Member

    http://www.ohln.nl/index.php/opmerkelijk-1/13746-ovse-waarnemer-bevestigt-kogelgaten-in-mh17-toestel

    SU-25 doesn't have a machine gun!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    A lot of planes don't. And ones that do rarely use them. Fighters almost universally kill planes with missiles, the days of machinegun dogfights are long past.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  31. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    The SPPU-22 gun pod can be equipped though.
    http://weaponsystems.net/weapon.php?weapon=HH13+-+SPPU-22
     
  32. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    Is there some confusion over machine-guns and cannons?
     
  33. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    That SPPU wouldn't be for use against high flying aircraft. The Su25 doesn't have the ceiling, nor the radar to do it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  34. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Nope, just pointing out that it can be made to fire something beside a rocket or missile.
    That wasn't my point.
     
  35. Juha

    Juha Member

  36. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    I didn't call it a machine gun or a cannon. I called it a gun pod, which is what they are called.


    I think everyone needs to stop being so anal about machine gun or cannon.

    I understand the difference. But they are both pretty much exactly the same thing. One fires big bullets the other fires bigger ones. Guns can be made to fire HE rounds and so can cannons.

    I'll be referring to machine guns as cannons and cannons as machine guns from now on. Purely for spite though! :p
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
  37. Juha

    Juha Member

    I know what you mean and normally I would not be so anal.

    But in this case there is huge difference. You can make cannon holes with MG, but with cannon you can't make MG holes.

    If you look those cockpit windows bolts, which are about 1/4" bolts(?), then the holes are max .50 cal?
    I haven't found anything, which can verify the size, but I don't believe they are very far from that 1/4" size. 30mm is ~1 and 1/4", 23mm is little less than 1"

     
  38. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    Since they can attach a cannon, I don't find it a stretch that a machine gun could be attached to an SU-25. So instead of arguing over semantics, everyone should bring the evidence that either confirms or refutes that it was something other than a missile or rocket strike. Debunk or prove both and you don't need to argue semantics.
     
  39. Juha

    Juha Member

  40. Soulfly

    Soulfly Banned Banned

    But if a Ukrainian engineer wanted to fit a machine gun (any machine gun) to an SU-25 they probably could.

    Simply saying it is a cannon and not a machine gun doesn't debunk that the damage is from a machine gun.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2014
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.