1. HappyMonday

    HappyMonday Moderator

    Here's the expose of the 'chemtrails insider' Max Bliss was touting for a while, which was released by publishing a number of emails he'd been receiving in a blog post.

    This 'insider information' was exposed as a deliberate hoax perpetrated on Max Bliss. See this thread for details - (https://www.metabunk.org/threads/max-and-the-whistleblower.2144/)

    Despite the revelations about it's origin, the information provided by the hoaxer is still being spread around the internet in support of the chemtrail conspiracy theory. As such, I intend to link and summarise debunking of at least some of the information provided later in this OP regardless of it's hoax origin.

    I've removed a lot of the congratulatory preamble so as to concentrate on the claims in the hoaxed emails, and I've italicised Max's interjections.

    Debunking of some of the specifics can be found below the copy/pasted emails.

    SOURCE - http://mrmaxbliss.wordpress.com/2013/08/03/corpus-delicti-with-mr-max-bliss-and-the-chemtrail-files/

    Whilst the above information is certainly provided by somebody with knowledge of airline and aircraft processes, the suggestion that TMA is the alleged sprayed agent causes a number of major issues with the theory as Trimethylaluminum ignites when brought into contact with oxygen, as shown in the datasheet for the material, shown in this post.

    This would require extremely consistent careful handling and specialist equipment, and is unlikely to be compatible with the standard equipment used in fuelling aircraft.

    Fundamentally, it's also highly unlikely that the processes described by the hoaxer could be hidden from the large numbers of loading / engineering staff that would have to be involved in them on a day to day basis at many different airports in many different locations, who would be implicated in loading a very dangerous substance on to passenger aircraft.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  2. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I saw this on Max's blog and I'm sorry but tl;dr. What is "TMA"?

    What is this management pilot supposed to do if one of the other pilots become aware? Shoot them on the spot? Have them stand in front of his desk and push the red button that makes them fall into the piranha tank? Max's confidant sounds much too melodramatic. How about instead of such a long winded whine he just anonymously send his diagram of where it is and what it is to all the news outlets , politicians, and Max-Alex-Russ types?

    Also, is this the friend of a trusted friend who emailed a friend that Madison Star Moon spoke of?
     
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  3. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    Assumably it's Trimethylaluminium - which would make a bomb of every plane carring it.
     
  4. captfitch

    captfitch Active Member

    Where to begin? Whoever wrote this knows exactly what they are talking about. To the point of sounding very believable. There's several problems however. Most of it comes down to phrasing actually. When they talk about the center wing tank they discuss how it has to be MEL'd for spray ops. All of the wording seems wrong on that and an MEL list and items on that list are touched and scrutinized be several, several people and groups. Even the pilots would have extreme suspicion if the same items kept getting MEL'd, the whole discussion about pilot scheduling is bogus because the MEL log stays with the plane (in the cockpit) for weeks. Every plane would have multiple MEL write-ups regarding the tanks. I would be tempted to turn down a plane that had multiple write-ups like that.

    The discussion of zero fuel weights is wrong as well. The zero fuel weights would be fairly standard and you could only hide a few hundred, maybe a thousand pounds in the weight. So with the discussion of equipment and material there's no way. These guys would be flying consistently enough that of there was a huge change in weight, they would know it. Feel it basically.

    The loading process is just ridiculous. With all the contract, part time people doing the lav service and fuel service the turnover rate is high. Add that to the hundreds of airports and now you have to keep thousands quiet, not just the management.

    And there is zero chance that something loaded into the plane would EVER be plumbed into the plane. That would NEVER happen! So the ULD discussion is completely bogus.
     
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  5. Strawman

    Strawman Active Member

    So:
    Yet:
    Am I reading this wrong, or is there a something of a contradiction?

    Is he talking about the Air France crash here?
     
  6. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    So the story is this.

    I am an industry insider that has knowledge of a potentially devastating geoengineering programme. Exposing the programme may bring down governments so do I contact

    A/ Glenn Greenwald. A US political commentator and respected journalist who helped expose the NSA and is credible.
    B/ Max Bliss. He has a blog.
     
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  7. captfitch

    captfitch Active Member

    Neither. Threaten to disclose, blackmail anyone in charge, reap rewards regardless of "guilt". I wonder why no one has thought of this yet?
     
  8. FreiZeitGeist

    FreiZeitGeist Senior Member

    Hmmm... seemes to me somebody had read this:

    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/max-bliss-debates-chemtrails.1648/page-2#post-57352

    --- Edit:

    And please don´t forget. TMA is a real "nice stuff"

     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  9. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Here's another glaring contradiction:

    So is TMA "drawn through the lines by the pressure differential and flows into the exhaust " or is it pumps powered by exhaust gas? How are those pumps lubricated and cooled, how would the heat affect TMA and how the hell do mechanics and pilots not notice these pumps?

    Anyone could read this forum and glean most all of the technical details incorporated in that alleged "confession".

    Something doesn't smell right... I call bullshit.
     
  10. captfitch

    captfitch Active Member

    Well, energy derived from the exhaust gas stream seems dubious. Although I'm not sure if that type of system has not been used before. It certainly would be impossible to conceel from the mechanics. Combine that with the fact that most engines are leased. Meaning they they get swapped often. Too many people involved with the maintanance and logistics. Plus there are multiple companies with thier hands in each engine. I can think of an instance where one company wanted to modify a part by drilling one small hole and everyone had lengthy discussions about it. How about the extra connections? Who wouldn't be involved.
     
  11. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    Spray nozzles? Dual fueling lines?

    Bet those photos that the "informant" took himself have been circulating already are have already been debunked.

    High pressure pumps bleeding exhaust gas for power? And all the mechanics at 100s of airports around the world keep mum about them?
     
  12. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    How does all this TMA get to the airport? As I understand it there is no standard fuel infrastucture. The one near me, Manchester, is supplied by a single pipeline from the refinery and has no storage capacity. One presumes then that TMA could not be added without raising suspicions. I may look into fuel supply.


    On a side note but Max related. He claims on FB posts that it is the EGCA orchestrating this. Anyone got a clue who they are?
     
  13. captfitch

    captfitch Active Member

    I really think they put themselves into a corner when it was fairly universally accepted that this operation is not being done by military aircraft. Now all of the airlines have to be involved.
     
  14. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Max uses the following video to support his TMA claims. He has issue that there are Nitrogen tanks on the flight line. His claim is liquid nitrogen is used as a coolant and to keep the TMA stable. Don't they inflate the tires with nitrogen as well as fuel tank inerting?

     
  15. captfitch

    captfitch Active Member

    Fuel inerting is rare. Very rare. And yes, all tires are filled with nitrogen as well as all hydraulic accumulators. There may be several of those. Besides, that's not liquid by any means. It's just dry nitrogen.
     
  16. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Thanks for the info. I saw the pictures and Googled "nitrogen cannisters airport" and got my info from there. I find it worrying for Max at the moment. He has taken a great deal of time and effort to take these photographs and even has an industry insider yet he sees Nitrogen tanks and thinks " coolant". Why not ask the insider or Google? Talk about confirmation bias. I wonder if he helped compile the report on WMD for Tony Blair?
    "That vehicle has wheels. That means it can be deployed in minutes and can carry chems".
    "But Mr Bliss it appears to be a shopping trolley".
    "That's just camoflague Sir".
     
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  17. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    Why are all these "insider" accounts always "anonymous" ?? Anyone here (or elsewhere) could conjure a blank letterhead doc, and claim to be an informant.

    1) Snowden exposed a much smaller scandal, and threw his life away for it (or his "way of life")
    2) These "anonymous letters" usually explain the inner workings with some bit of research.....but not extensive research.....just enough research to convince some people.
    3) The "danger" of coming-forth with a real name and real job placement (if it were true) would be the sign of a true hero.
    4) Human morals would prevail, over keeping an identity a secret......especially given the numbers of people who could know the same info.
    5) Too easy to make this sh*t up.
    6) It's irresponsible to claim this info is true....without verifying the source.
     
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  18. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    If his anonymous informant isn't wholely made up I'd wager he's getting trolled.
     
  19. scombrid

    scombrid Senior Member

    All airlines. All flights, large aircraft and small, going near the tropopause.

    Remember just within the last couple of weeks the chemtrail believers were going on about a Microsoft owned gulfstream trailing at +40k feet. There are a lot of problems for the chemtrail conspiracy theory that arise from what Max is getting from his "informant".
     
  20. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Scombrid, I think this catches the hoaxer in a lie. Note that he is telling Max that one fuel hose is for TMA, and one is for jet fuel. He says the second fuel hose connection is "just for show".

    However,
    The dual fuel lines on an MD-11 are shown in this video, on the right wing, but it also shows two more available refueling connections on the LEFT wing, and explains that the second fuel hose connection is simply for more flow to fuel faster? (see video @5:00 minutes)



    So, is the claim that on a 737 or other plane, the two fuel connections are "just for show"?
    Pilots, let me know what you think about this.

    BTW, here is some more detailed information on the 737 fuel system. Note the details mentioned about the center fuel tank, inerting leaves a 12% oxygen level in the center fuel tank. Remember, contact of TMA with any oxygen means spontatenous combustion!
    http://www.b737.org.uk/fuel.htm

    This write-up mentions that fueling is done from the RIGHT wing on the 737, not the left as the Hoaxer says:
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=13&cad=rja&ved=0CIABEBYwDA&url=http://www.737ng.co.uk/B_NG-Fuel.pdf&ei=KLD-Ub2fH5Lo8QS3lIHYDA&usg=AFQjCNEH9cSk1EKxabKWjEmy6Kl1eDwIeQ&sig2=aWBRMq-q_oTDVvM3lVLZ-g

    Lastly,
    from the above link, here is a schematic of the 737 fuel system the Hoaxer is talking about. You can't simply load different fuels into different tanks, the tanks are all interconnnected by lines, valves, pumps and manifolds, fuel pumps receive their lubrication from the fuel itself, good luck pumping TMA through a fuel pump using a pyrophoric substance that spontaneously bursts into flame as a lubricant! The whole fuel system is interconnected means that one wrong flip of a switch and you send an explosive fuel headed to your engines. Having TMA piped into the engines means one mechanic at an unexpected airport who makes a wrong move, finds piping sending an explosive substance and opens the line, and BOOM!! Up goes the hanger in flames.

    737-fuel system.

    Max, are you really so gullible?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
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  21. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    For correctness, can you clarify that....as I have read that it is not nearly as combustible/flash-able if mixed with other components.
     
  22. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    That was on Russ Tanner's Global Skywatch Conference call. One of Tanner's friends tracked the Starbuck's Corporate jet allegedly "spraying".
    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/your-most-favoritist-wacky-chemtrail-theories.186/page-3#post-56593
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  23. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Well, for one, I certainly wouldn't mix it with water. I'm sure at some point and with some substance it might be safer, but the Hoaxer will have to answer that question, since he is the one making the claim and left out any reference to that. Maybe if he reads this thread he will come up with something........:D

    TMA MSDS.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  24. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    I'd have to wonder how long there have been two fuel connections "just for show". They're always been putting "for show" connections on wings, just in case they needed something "just for show"? Are there any cockpit buttons "just for show"? Any other "just for show" gauges? Seems hard to believe anyone could come up with such a theory.
     
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  25. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    This bit intrigues me:

    The only methanol I've ever seen in almost 40 years working in aviation was a 50/50 water/methanol mix used in NAC/Air New Zealand F-27 Friendships and Mount Cook Airlines Hawker Sidley 748's for take off power augmentation (hot, 'cos no airports are high in New Zealand!). Both aircraft used Rolls Royce Dart turboprop engines that were essentially 1940's technology - the water-meth was injected through the hub of the centrifugal compressor to cool the incoming air charge - this increased its density, so allowed the engine to generate more power.

    As well as working on the airframes - the tanks, pumps and piping - I also spent some time working on the engine overhaul line, and a year or so working with fuel system components and specifically overhauling the water-meth metering valves for these engines shortly after I finished my apprenticeship.

    So - back to the quote above - should a be a doddle to spot some ULD's that have all this stuff fitted to them then - and also the filling/servicing facilities that handle them??
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  26. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    ULD's all have specific numbers for each individual container. This is the sort of specific information these anonymous insiders always neglect to give, something that can actually be checked out.

    If a person really wanted to blow the whistle, all they would have to do is to state a flight number, a pilot, a ULD number, and the jig would be up.
    The story he told Max was designed to bamboozle, to flatter, to instill trust, all the same sorts of things that any con-man does. He exploited Max's desperation to be proven correct, flattered him by telling him he was correct, and told him what he wanted to hear. Max seems easily manipulated.

    800px-Germanwings_Container_03.
     
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  27. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    The two fuel hoses are there to refuel both wing tanks simultaneously via a refuelling manifold. If you didn't do this, asymmetric loading of fuel would cause structural damage to the wing

    The story is like chemtrail theory; small amounts of truth mixed with many bogus statements. I agree with Capt Fitch... It is done by someone who knows their stuff.
     
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  28. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    The fittings used at the end of airplane refueling hoses are familiar to me. In my work pumping liquid cargo such as fuel and chemicals from ships to oil rigs I have used them many times. They are generically called TODO fittings/couplers, and are designed in such a way that practically no leakage is possible, if the connection breaks away internal valves close via spring pressure to prevent spillage. They are not fool-proof and I have had them stick open slightly and drip.

    These are suitable for most fuels and chemicals, but look closely at the video below showing the principle with which these valves work and you will see that a wetted surface which is in contact wth the fluid transferred does remain exposed when the coupling is disconnected. That surface, when uncoupled after transfer of a pyrophoric substance such as TMA would leave a coating of TMA ready to spontaneously combust and such a coupling would therefore not be suitable for such a transfer.
     
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  29. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    I'm glad you brought that up, Jay....something I failed to think-of.
    Thinking more.....if there is a highly flashable substance (low flash-point) mixed with another substance.....which evaporates first....leaving the other ?
    I'm sure this must be a consideration, among all petro vapors.

    Isn't there a grounding cable, when fueling....to prevent a static discharged spark ?
    ...or i it incorporated in the hose assembly itself ?

    in my electronics usage connections .....ground meets ground first, then the active wires meet. But here, there are no volatile vapors.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  30. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

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  31. Strawman

    Strawman Active Member

    OT:
    The comments to Max's blog post are quite sad. People are losing hope and getting depererate, and for no real reason at all, all for a hoax. We always look for what chemtrailers might do to pilots, but it's easy to forget the toll the chemtrails hoax takes on its believers. It's not the first time I have seen people talk like this. It's understandable, really. So sad!
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
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  32. Jazzy

    Jazzy Closed Account

    Nobody has mentioned that TMA, when burnt, shines as brightly as the sun. That might be a give-away, don't you think? Quite visible during the day, and glorious at night... LOL
     
  33. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/max-bliss-debates-chemtrails.1648/page-2#post-57329

    I'm sure there will be a way of integrating that into Max's spiel. Perhaps a reference to the airline eye-masks that are handed out?
    http://blog.edreams.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2013/03/eye-mask-airplane.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  34. Jazzy

    Jazzy Closed Account

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  35. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Ok, I am going to put an end to this nonsense.

    I have found detailed instructions for safe handling of TMA. The precautions needed to prevent the spontaneous eruption of fire when handling TMA are stringent and totally beyond anything mentioned by the hoaxer. The detailed instructions I have found come in the aftermath of a fatal accident at the University of California in which a lab assistant was burned to death by a syringe of pyrophoric material which came into contact with air and resulted in the prosecution of the supervising professor.


    Here are the detailed instructions for handling small bottles of pyrophic materials. You will note that extraordinary precautions are taken to load a simple syringe.
    To begin, all of this work must be done underneath a nitrogen purged hood to exclude contact with air containing oxygen.
    The material is kept in a container purged with nitrogen and sealed with a rubber septum (rubber similar to a vaccine vial). Before inserting the needle, a positive pressure of inert gas is established and constantly maintained both in the syringe and the bottle to avoid even the slightest possibility of the entry of air into either of them.
    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&ved=0CFYQFjAJ&url=http://www.ehs.columbia.edu/pyrophorics.pdf&ei=B5T_UfuEKsTKrQGXxIHICw&usg=AFQjCNHeTrwC49ds5K-80KKsGg_7w0oWww&sig2=2rI1U6pL6afXNjzqp1aOXg

    here are two instructional videos showing the procedures:



    Here is a vivid demonstration by a hazmat team showing the results of air contacting TMA, note what happens when water is introduced in an attempt to fight the fire, and the 'space suit' worn by the firefighter as a precaution. As he pours out the vial, the TMA spontaneously burns in a flaming stream. Also note that only dry chemical agents are effective at extinguishing this fire. Never use Co2 fire extinguishers on a pyrophoric material since the breakdown of CO2 will introduce oxygen to a pyrophoric fire, vastly accelerating it. An attempt to extinguish a TMA fire with standard firefighting aqueous foam used at airports would create a catastrophic explosion disintegrating the plane.

    Even a madman wouldn't put this stuff in a passenger plane.



    This gambit by the hoaxer could not have worked without the ignorance of the targets. The originator of the idea that trimethylaluminum (TMA) is used to create "chemtrails" had it's genesis from Harold Saive, a notable producer of hoax videos.

    On August 11, 2011, I informed Saive about the flaws in his claim:
    So, two years ago Harold Saive was fully informed about the flaws in his claim, yet he failed to relay those to Max Bliss. Harold Saive primed the "set up" for this hoax to become effective on Bliss just as the other gambits in this hoax have worked. By not taking debunking into account and engaging in open discussion these people always set others up for failure. This is the sort of stuff that hoaxes are made of, people staying silent when they are told exactly how they are wrong. From its inception with the false claim that contrails never persist up to now, the story is always the same. The virus of false information is spread from one to the next with total disregard for the truth and full disclosure of known faulty information. The Barn of Bunk is never cleaned out, and the crap is piled up higher by the minute.

    Lastly, none of us including the hoaxer have looked carefully at the physical properties of TMA. It has a significant flaw which greatly complicates it's use.

    TMA is a SOLID below a temperature of 15 degrees celsius (59 degrees F).

    Max, you need to ask your "insider" how the TMA is pumped underground to the fueling stations on the tarmac when average soil temperature is 55 degrees, when air temperature is below 59 degrees, or when in flight the fuel tanks get chilled below that temperature. TMA cannot be pumped under those conditions because it is a solidified mass. What does a plane in flight do with a solid mass of pyrophoric material ready to vaporize in it's wing tanks?

    Actually, Max, it is about time for you to eat some crow. You have been had because of your eagerness to be proven correct, you have been a tool of someone who toyed with you like a puppet, and you have now spread the bunk worldwide. It might hurt your pride and reputation to admit this, but you know it is the right thing to do. Disclaim all of this, admit publicly that you were talked into spreading a rumor which has proven to be false. Do the right thing.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  36. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    To the hoaxer. You've had your fun. Let the other shoe drop and tell Max what a fool he has been.


    TMA.
     
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  37. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Seeing what the results of "accidental exposure to TMA" are like pretty much makes the following claim rather ridiculous, no?

    So many clues that he's being played.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  38. TomC

    TomC Member

    Quite. I've never understood what the argument is for why the "main stream media" won't report on chemtrails, even though (supposedly) "the evidence is undeniable!"

    After all, they had no problem at all reporting on the Wikileaks scandal which embarrassed a lot of governments. And similarly Snowden's revelations were very damaging to governments and also to the evil big corporations that were complicit. Last I heard none of the journalists who had reported on those things had befallen any nasty "accidents" and the media organisations they worked for had all done very nicely out of the stories.

    If the evidence is as strong as the ct followers believe then any journalist worth his salt would jump on this story faster than you can say "contrails don't persist". It would make their career and they would go down in history, as would whatever paper or network they worked for.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  40. Sausalito

    Sausalito Active Member

    And now we wait... Just wish someone was there to put a hand on his shoulder in a fraternal gesture, and offer him a pint and a sympathetic ear for his reflections.
     
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