1. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Doing the rounds at the moment is this startling report -

    - http://theintelhub.com/2011/05/17/t...d-in-several-mohave-county-arizona-residents/

    I'm sure there's more to it than chemtrails - after all if this stuff is in the air then how come some people have none at all??

    Anothe chap has an alternative explaination - big business promoting chemtrails to cover the effects of coal pollution

    Which also seems unlikely for exactly the same reason - if it is in the air from polution then how come some people have none in their blood at all??

    At least in this case I guess there is the potential for some people to be in a pollution plume while others are not if there's a powerplant close by - but of course I don't have that info.
  2. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    This appears to be a webpage by Gianluca Zanna. He is all over the place, so much bunk, so many mistakes.

    However, Zanna has been working this since January, and probably has 17 people and likely their families scared to death that they are poisoned. The article says a doctor has been involved, sometimes I've seen this and it turns out to be a naturopath, etc., and found it strange that, "Al's doctor has referred him to the Poison Control Center for treatment."

    This doesn't sound like a doctor at all, do they even treat people?

    During today's podcast with Food Integrity Now, MJM said something about heading down to AZ to do something with former Arizona Sen. Karen Johnson, taping some interviews. I suppose he is involved wih this by now.

    Zanna's Congressman told him the hard truth, gave him references, their office spent quite some time on this, all a waste it seems.

    I wonder if MJM has stock in any of these analytical labs? He's sure drumming up some business!

    In my opinion this gambit has gotten legs and can't be called back in, probably not even by MJM himself.
    I'm betting MJM will do as before, run with it, and deny, deny, deny.
    It might take some time for the folks to tire of Murphy like they did with William Thomas, who is today a nobody because his chemtrail stuff always led down dead-ends too.

    have a look at just how far and wide this one has gone already:
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    ([Friberg, L., Nordberg, G.F., Kessler, E. and Vouk, V.B. (eds). Handbook of the Toxicology of Metals. 2nd ed. Vols I, II.: Amsterdam: Elsevier Science Publishers B.V., 1986., p. V2 89] **PEER REVIEWED**)

    Worst case from Mohave = 250 mcg/L

    mcg/L = Micrograms/Liter
    mg/L = milligrams/Liter
    ug/L = Micrograms/Liter

    250 mcg/L = 0.25 mg/L

    Normal human blood contains 0.08-0.40 mg/L

    Hence all results are within normal range.

    I initially though they assumed that mcg = mg, when actually mcg = 0.001mg
    [Edit] , actually no. It seems like they take a rather narrow view of the statistics at the bottom:

    So I think what they have done is assumed that 10 is "normal", but actually the "reporting limit" is 11, so that means numbers less than 11 are unreliable (?), so anything below 10 is reported as "normal". But the median value is 21 (meaning half of all people have a result higher than 21). And the 10-90% population are in the range 1.8-165. Meaning 40% of all people are in the range 21-165.

    What the labs actually report as typical results:

    So basically they have normal levels. A couple of people have levels a bit higher than average. Several have levels lower than average.

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  4. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I bet they really hate it when you do that, Mick.
    Slam-dunk DEBUNK.
    G Edward Griffin was saying we tried to make them look foolish, but they actually do it to themselves!

    Now we can really test your preempt debunk proposal.
    I see MikeC posted the debunk over there, 2 days have elapsed.
    Will they 'pull it'? (OMG, look what I just said!)
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  5. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Ouch - well spotted!!

    I made a comment over there to the effect of your post - it was noted as awaiting moderation and hasn't appeared yet.
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A more likely source of the slightly elevated level of barium is the Mineral Park mine (Mercator Minerals), just a few miles north of Golden Valley. It mines 50,000 tons per day in an open-pit configuration, one of the largest such mines in North America. This inevitably will produce some elevated amounts of both airborne and groundwater levels of all the minerals found in the ground.
    But again, the test results are not particularly high. Well within normal ranges.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  8. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    I wonder why they allowed your comments through but not mine??

    Name recognition??!! ;)
  9. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Maybe you were not polite enough :)
    • Funny Funny x 1
  10. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Me? not polite?? who could ever think that??:rolleyes::cool:
  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  12. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Reading the comments over there is an eye-opener. You have one that claims a PhD, and another with a law degree that are so deeply invested into it that they refuse evidence put right in their faces that Zanna made a mistake.

    This Lorraine H. Sherman, JD who commented is scary. An attorney with so much education who should be expert at evaluating evidence, yet doesn't get it :

    Just remember that education doesn't mean a thing when it comes to belief.
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 4, 2015
  13. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Guest

    After four emails back and forth with Gianluca Zanna, he steadfastly refuses to understand what has been presented in this thread. He also refuses my advice to contact the NMS lab or a toxicologist, though he does remark that one of his subjects was advised by a doctor to contact a toxicologist. His main hang-up seems to be that NMS wrote "elevated" on the lab report. He says that he is not an idiot and can read the blood test for himself. He wants a investigation into the situation and says that he is supposed to have NO barium in his blood. Period.

    It appears he will get his investigation, and will no doubt be disappointed in the result.


    He also says we are "Voodoo Medicine Men".........
  14. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    State of Arizona,
    Arizona House of Representatives
    District 3 State Representative
    Mrs Nancy Mclain
    1706 E Marble Canyon Dr.
    Bullhead City, AZ 86442

    Mrs. Mclain and Mr. Gianluca,
    Please be advised that it has been shown that the blood test levels of barium shownby Gianluca Zanna on this website

    Mr. Zanna should reflect this fact on the website, and apologize to everyone involvedfor the fear and the trouble he has caused. I believe Mr. Gianluca should offer to pay all costs for this episode, including he testing that he encouraged, the anxiety and mental distress, and any expense he has caused the government to look into his spurious accusations.

    This was a complete and total waste of money, time, and resources which could have been avoided had Mr. Zanna consulted a Toxicologist before making this false alarm. If any police resources were wasted in this case, there may actually be a legal remedy against Mr. Zanna under the false alarm laws. Our nation simply cannot afford to have scarce resources spent on bogus Un-American scares such as this.

    Jay Reynolds

    Governor of Arizona Jan Brewer
    1700 West Washington
    Phoenix, Arizona 85007

    Congressman Trent Franks
    7121 West Bell Road Suite 200
    Glendale, AZ 85308

    AZ State Senator Ron Gould
    1700 W. Washington Room 303
    Phoenix, AZ 85007

    AZ State Ass. Doris Goodale
    House of Representatives 1700 W. Washington
    Room 310 Phoenix, AZ 85007

    Sen. Jon Kyl
    730 Hart Senate Building
    Washington, D.C. 20510

    Sen John Mccain
    Washington Office:
    241 Russell Senate Office Building
    Washington, DC 20510
  15. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Mr. Al Dicicco, who is one of the Mojave people Zanna has gotten all frightened, has asked to debate this issue.
    I invited him here and await the debate.

    Here is Al's story:
  16. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Barite is beautiful!

    Mr. Al Dicicco has read this forum and notified me by email he has declined to debate.

    I forgot about this before, but at home I have a shelf which holds a collection of found objects, one of them is an Oklahoma "Rock Rose" I picked up during a trip about a dozen years ago near Oklahoma City, there were many of these in a ditch beside the road.

    It is the official State Rock of Oklahoma.
    Barium sulfate and sandstone.
    Naturally occurring.
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  18. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Nice work Jay - thanks for the effort - and the picture - fascinating!! I spent a couple of weeks in Ok city 11 years ago on a course at the FAA university there....it was too hot to go looking for rock roses tho! :)

    As for the replies.......I guess this is how stereotypes get confirmed!!:rolleyes:
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Some more Barium info. Barium is everywhere.


  20. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Start the day with BArium!

    Great info, so two eggs(100 grams) and 2 cups of bran flakes(100 grams) for breakfast gives you
    .39+.76=1.5 milligrams of barium for breakfast.

    I am a cancer survivor and have drunk my share of barium milkshakes before CAT scans.
    I also have worked with barite dust having blown thousands of tons of it up to oil rigs using compressed air,
    had it all over my clothes, in my hair, etc. I am possibly opaque, radiologically speaking, and according to Zanna should have been dead and gone long ago. Yet I persist.

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  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I know Prison Planet is something of a lost cause, but I thought I'd try posting there, as the story cropped up. I was actually a little surprised that my first post was not immediately deleted, and the strongly pro-chemtrail-theory moderator KiwiClare, actually responded.


    After I linked to some info on Barium she said:

    I replied:

    Which she deleted, and sent me a nice PM:

    I tried again:

    Also deleted, with no explanation. I think I'll let that one go.
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  22. tryblinking

    tryblinking Member

    I'll admit that sometimes on this internet of ours I'm quite naive, but I'm astonished people like that are able to become moderators. The job of a moderator is to maintain the equilibrium of posts, keeping the initial spirit of a board constant (just as Uncinus/Mick does). Of course if the board starts out heavily biased then it becomes their job to keep it that way...
  23. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    I think KiwiClare is Clare Swiney - who is a real nutjob....literally - her saga of incarceration in a mental institution for a couple of weeks is her calvary (put in by rellies, kept in for longer than necessary because of her 9/11 beliefs........apologised to because of that (political beliefs are not a reason for involuntary incarceration) - but I suspect if her entire spectrum of paranoia had been known it would have provided sufficient justification!!)

    Her website is at http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress.com/ & is totally censored asd aer other NZ chemmie sites that generally take their lead from her - none of my posts ever show up there - Ross Marsden's used to - but either he's given up or she's censoring him now.

    Edit: looks like Mick has made some impact too - check out the message from G. Edward Griffin - http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress....ls-be-proved-from-g-edward-griffin/#more-7618
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  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  25. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    Clare asked me to stop commenting on her site. So I did. There seemed to be no point - anything I posted (at one time) vanished into the "Spam" folder. More recently, my few comments "await moderation". I think we have reached an understanding .. I have asked for the right of reply if I am referenced in a post (or comment). She grants this, so that's fine.
    I also hit the "like" icon on selected posts. This brings up my WordPress avatar. I use it like the "BS" flag is used on GLP.

    I have backed away from activism a lot after my guest speaker spot at the Wellington screening of "What in the World...". However, I do intend to write to G Edward about some things he said in that interview on FoodIntegrity, and about his lame piece about contrails.
    I think he needs to be challenged about those.
  26. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Griffin says this:
    I checked Planefinder and could immediately tell it wasn't showing the full range of planes.

    Mr. Griffin should have checked this out before jumping the gun,
    but he already knew it had limitations.......

    The ASD-B equipment is not required for domestic flights till 2020.

    The APP is essentially worthless for what they want to do, as so many
    ordinary commercial flights don't show up.

    Check the reviews of this APP:
    4 pages of mostly complaints.

    Some chemmies are already experiencing this.

    I did write to Griffin and advised him to compare Flightaware with Planefinder to see the difference.

    I hope he writes his folks and lets them know of his error.

    You already know what sort of problems chemmies have with perspective, how they claim jets are
    going "straight up".
  27. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Guest

    I went to that site and saw this:
    I made a comment that as this chart shows, the unique relationship sometimes known as the 'magic' temperature
    -40 degrees is the same for both Fahrenheit and Celsius scales:

    I also told her that the text she quoted originated with William Thomas in 2004, but is incorrect:

    I saw that my own comment was 'awaiting moderation', but it never made it through, and Swinney has declined to correct her error.
  28. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's growing.


    You should tell them that 57C is 135F, to really confuse matters :)

    Seriously, another unfortunate indication of how incorrect facts cannot effectively be corrected once they have made their way onto the internet. This -70F nonsense will probably be around for the next ten years.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Jolly good, even corrected the video. Science win! Probably Jay's comment though, rather than this forum.
  30. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I see that Claire must be reading this forum and has corrected her error. Way to go, Clare!
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  31. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  32. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

  33. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I see that Mike found a very relevant document from August, 2006, wherein a full investigation of a claimed "barium toxicity" in a mother and child was investigated by Texas Department of State Health Services. Tests results indicated 331 μg/L and 251 μg/L of barium in the citizen’s mother’s blood and daughter’s blood, respectively. The report is complete with references. Drinking water, soil and household samples were taken which indicated that levels of barium in the environment were not out of the ordinary.
    Regarding the blood levels, they reported:
    The report concluded:
    I did some thinking after I first posted this.
    CSI thinking.
    As much as we speak about connecting the dots, here I go.....

    1. The report concluded that dietary intake was the likely reason for the barium blood levels.
    2. The child and her grandmother both had "cramps, abdominal pains, and numbness" in April, 2006.
    3. The mother did not report symptoms.
    4. Nuts, including peanuts, are among the highest dietary sources of barium.

    The researchers could have looked at:
    1. What was common to both the grandmother and granddaughter.
    2. What was dissimilar in the mother's diet, if they shared common food preferences, etc.
    3. What was the mother's barium level?
    4. Did the child and grandmother eat peanut butter?
    5. Does the mother not eat peanut butter?

    The reason why I would have asked that is that, though the symptoms were reported as taking place in April of 2006, during 2006, a significant outbreak of salmonella ocurred which was traceable to contaminated peanut butter:

    Of course, this is in hindsight, likely the ASTDR has no idea about the outbreak since most salmonella cases began reporting in August, 2006 after the research was completed.\

    This case could have been an early incident within the outbreak, or unrelated. The ASTDR was asked to evaluate the risk of the toxic site, not to neccessarily find the cause of borderline elevated barium levels, but to eliminate the toxic site as a possible cause.

    The chemtrails believers who are falsely claiming that they have elevated blood levels could do an experiment. They could eliminate nuts from their diet and see if their levels decrease. Since there are other sources of barium, dietary and environmental, this would not be conclusive, but might be interesting. I would also be interested in seeing what average blood barium levels are within a group of people who have nut allergies and thus no nuts in their diets.

    Thanks to Mike for this early morning brain stimulation!
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  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    They updated to a newer version of the CRC Handbook, and only published an excerpt rather than the full entry - probably copyright reasons. The older page is available here:


  35. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Tony Hilder will see evidence of a worldwide conspiracy there.......
  36. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Al Diciccio asked the Mohave County Health Board to tell him about his blood barium levels.
    They agreed to get expert testimony to tell him about his exposure to several things.

    They brought an expert to testify and told him he was normal, and that barium, aluminum and strontium are a part of the earth. He went ballistic and rejected what they told him.

    This is sad because he already had been told this, but he was "set up" for failure by his cohorts in the chemtrails believer movement. People like Michael J. Murphy "set him up" as a failure by giving him bogus information. He shouldn't be angry at the county, who will not respond to him any more, he should be angry at the people who misinformed him. He sounds like he is not very happy, but has misidentified who caused him all this trouble.

    See the video(I note that he deleted part of the expert testimony):
  37. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I happened upon another video starring the disabled Al Diciccio.
    His talk starts at about 5 minutes in.

    Al is shown seated in front of a huge barbecue pit.
    Al needs to know that ordinary charcoal briquettes contain both lignite and anthracite coal.
    When Al eats barbecued foods cooked on these barium containing fuels, he is likely to ingest some barium.
    mineral char= lignite coal
    mineral carbon= anthracite coal
  38. what is wrong with you? You cannot even spell DiCicco? Many many more are going to sue obstructionists like you, government agencies and we want to include you in the criminal and civil lawsuit for cut and pasting and spreading disinformation and thereby interfering with an investigation. What is your location? We want to come and visit you. What is your full name?
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  39. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I will admit to and apologize for misspelling Mr.Dicicco's name. Not sure what sort of lawsuit could be made for copy/pasting information, or spreading disinformation, but there is certainly a lot out there. You could say that it is also known as bunk.

    I actually encourage any chemtrail believer to get themselves in court and see how their evidence stands up.

    I did get another email from Al and will be calling him today as requested. He still hasn't taken me up on a debate here, but the invitation I made to him 5 months ago still stands, and I look forward to it. What chemtrail believers need to do before venturing into court is to test the waters by engaging in free and open debate. If you don't do well there, heading into court might put you liable for court costs incurred should you see your case thrown out. Loser pays and all that.

    So, here is a starter for the debate. I'll let you take the affirmative.

    If you had 5 minutes to address the US Congress and national TV networks to show your evidence, what would you use as the best, most irrefutable proof you could show in that amount of time?
  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A note from DiCicco on Facebook today:


    (also has a link to this thread)