1. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    The fellows in this video have been tracking commercial planes over Australia, and one particular flight, Qantas QF63 was tracked from Sydney to Johannesburg on two different occasions as it passed over Hobart, Tasmania. The tracker, 'Youtuber' peekay22 was able to use the flight tracker to twice predict the plane's arrival over Hobart and called Tasmania where another person made visual ID of the plane as it was observed to pass overhead. He also confirmed the planes red tail color as it passed overhead. On the first occasion, the plane left a non-persistent contrail, but the second day it left a persistent horizon to horizon "chemtrail".

    So, they basically debunked the claim that ordinary commercial flights don't make persistent contrails, though they continued to call the latter case "sparaying". The first case, to their minds, was just a case of the plane "not spraying". They also seemed outraged that the plane did not fly a straight path between the two destinations. Chemtrails sites never explain aviation, but for anyone interested, here is a link to a "Great Circle" mapping utility, I have put in the route here. A great circle, or geodesic, path isn't a joke, it is actually the shortest route between two points on the surface of a sphere.

    Variations in fligt paths are not unusual. Using either radar, turbulence or wind speed forecasts or reports, pilots plot their courses to avoid storms, high headwinds, or turbulent conditions. They may also gain considerable speed if they are able to change course to run with high speed rivers of air called jet streams. Here are some examples of actual passenger reports from other days of the same flight Qantas QF63.
     
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I Find Google Earth very useful for visualizing flight paths. You can also rotate the globe, so you can see that the flight path is actually a straight line (when viewed from directly overhead)

    [​IMG]

    Flights this long rarely take the "intuitive" direction that you'd think of from looking at a flat map.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  3. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Just by way of info, it is QANTAS - no "u" in it - it is an acronym for "Queensland And Northern Territories Air Service" :)

    Edit - I'm wrong - it is/was "Aerial" services, not "Air"....can't go upsetting the Aussies over important things like that! ;)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Thanks Mike, I've edited the thread title and Jay's post to correct this (more google friendly)
     
  5. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I agree the google map changes the perspective and makes it very easy to see. It also answers another example of Youtube user peekay22's being unaware of ordinary airline navigation. The flight mentioned in my original posting was Qantas QF63 from Sydney to Johannesburg. The return flight from Johannesburg to Sydney is Qantas QF64 which was flight tracked by peekay22 in his video. Here are some of his comments:

    But looking on Mick's Google Earth version, you can clearly see the French Southern and Antarctic lands, and that the Great Circle Route passes just north of those islands. Peekay22 really has no idea about aviation, because in his years of "chemtrails research", none of the "chemtrail" sites have focused their attention and gathered real information about the subject they are dealing with. They chose, instead, to believe their misleaders lke Michael J. Murphy and Rosalind Peterson who, despite being told the truth and shown exactly where they were wrong, choose to never address these issues, to ban people from discussion of these issues, and have made a particular effor to always avoid and to never respond to them.

    When chemtrail believers finally realize what they've missed, and realize that they have been fooled into believing a hoax, they just drop off the face of the earth, and you never hear any more from them. If they dared to speak about their change of heart, they got banned, shouted down, and called names.

    This is how a hoax becomes a conspiracy theory, and this is how a conspiracy theory becomes a cult of belief.

    This is how innocent people get sucked in to a morass, led into a sense of fear and the resulting emotional isolation and false thinking.

    This is the result of psychological manipulation be it accidental, for commercial purposes, or simply to gratify the egos of those who promote chemtrails.
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It would seem inevitable that he'll discover great circles eventually, so he'll drop that argument. But you can see the same mistake will get made thousands more times. You get people wondering why there's so much air traffic over Scotland, as they assume all the traffic to the US would just go due West.

    There must be a bunch of ex-chemtrailers out there. There should be some kind of "chemtrail survivors" support group, to help steer young people away from the conspiracy.

    A lot of the chemtrailers are of a general conspiratorial bent though, and even if they have moved away from chemtrails, they still don't want to be on the side of the debunkers. Also conspiracy theorists have a huge culture of acceptance, where criticizing some else's theory is frowned upon. All theories are viewed as equally acceptable (and some more than others).
     
  7. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I originally thought that if every chemtrail believer honestly used flight tracking and telescopic photography as a group effort, they could solve the conundrum which had been placed before them by the original hoax and subsequent misdirection.
    I am still of that opinion.

    The question is how brutally honest they want to be.
    The truth hurts, especially when it points it's finger directly at you and shows how wrong you have been.
     
  8. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    In on-line conversation with chemtrail believers, they often say something along the lines of "I dearly hope for the sake of all of us that you are correct", meaning that the trails are contrails after all.
    Many of them seem to be "that close" to switching views to the chemtrail debunker side.
     
  9. Danny55

    Danny55 Member

    With the exception being Judy, from Nevada.
     
  10. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    *Breaking* New development!

    http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress....s-sydney-airport-rally-tuesday-13th-december/
     
  11. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    In this obsecenity laced video, peekay22 pours out hatred against this particular Qantas flight which he is certainly obsessed with. He seems blinded to all reason, and totally unaware of ordinar contrail formation. He asks why there isn't a contrail everyday, when he clearly is showing the full range of possible contrail occurrance from none at all to very persistent. Yes, the days with none or short trails show little signs of upper air moisture, while the more persistent days show more evidence of pre-existing moisture.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1BvBOx_svM

    This one is another particularly disturbing video by the same fellow:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Plxz3jmCvPQ
     
  12. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    To Ross: That should be happening right about now....I wonder how it is going for them??
     
  13. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    Yes, it would have gone down at about 03:30 UTC 13 Dec 2011.
    I came here to find out. (This is like me News Channel.)
    There is no new activity on peekay22's YT channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/peekay22
    It's a little early yet.
     
  14. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    No news here yet.
     
  15. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    "Video has been removed by user"......I wonder what happened????
     
  16. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    He's been asked on his channel, also endtheresistance, but no response. All that pent up anger and indignation, they must be awfully let down for some reason. :(

    What ever happened to the supposed lawsuit that Joe Marmon and Michael J Murphy were going to file?
    Did that video get deleted, too?
     
  17. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

  18. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Great find, Mike. Confirms what I was thinking. Here is the image of the flight track back in 2009:
    http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/2458/flightex1.jpg

    So, the reason the flight heads south down below Tasmania is to avoid strong westerlies which blow from the NW towards the SE in the southern hemisphere.
    Judging from the post, Qantas was actually saving fuel by heading down south as far as 64 to 65 degrees to avoid up to a 200 knot head wind in the westerlies, and getting down into the Polar Easterlies where they can get a boost of speed from the prevailing air currents:
    [Broken External Image]:http://marineodyssey.co.uk/resources/Major+Wind+Belts.png
     
  19. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Probably the reason why peekay22 and endtheresistance are not responding to questions about their involvement in the planned confrontation of a pilot in an airport is because both Qantas and the Australian Federal Police had full foreknowledge of a plan by unstable individuals to make trouble in an airport. I could not morally stand by and do nothing having knowledge of a possible incident to the transportation infrastructure, pasengers and crew there in Australia, so I utilized the on line form provided by the Australian government and reported what I knew.
    ======================
    Date: Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 10:38 PM
    Subject: Aviation Security Incident Report
    To: Transport.Security@infrastructure.gov.au
    Cc: thechief762@gmail.com
    Incident Details
    Location (Airport Name): Sydney
    Location (State): NSW
    Incident Date: 13/12/2011
    Incident Time: 1430
    Aviation Industry Participant: USA citizen
    Airport Area: International arrival
    Terminal number:
    Security Incident
    Other Incident: Individuals plan to confront QF64 pilot
    Aircraft Information
    Was the aircraft in flight?: No
    Incident Description
    Background:
    see youtube account of user peekay22 and endtheresistance: http://www.youtube.com/user/peekay22 http://www.youtube.com/user/EndTheResistance especially these videos:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzDwKWRVZss
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgJeWHNHLAM
    Description:
    Individuals have plans to confront pilot and/or crew of QF64 at international arrivals in Sydney at 1430 hours. One individual describes himself as male, blond hair, wearing a red back pack. They may be holding signs using the word "chemtrails"
    People Involved:
    Agencies Notified:
    Reason for Report: A security incident notified by:
    Name: Jay Reynolds
    Agency Name: private US citizen
    Contact Details
    Full name Jay Reynolds
    Position private US citizen
    Email thechief762@gmail.com
    ===========================
    I expect that as a result of Qantas and the Federal Police, plans were made so that the pilots, crew, passengers, and innocent bystanders were never in any danger, and that any of the individuals involved never even got close to the airport, instead they had a lengthy interview and will forever have a file describing whatever happened. I hope that the individuals have a chance to reflect on this, but I see that peekay is now calling his former friend endtheresistance a "troll". The guy is a paranoid menace, IMHO.
     
  20. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    Fascinating comment by peekay22: "Federal Police were tipped off...nothing happened...cant talk"

    Perhaps posting 2 highly public youtube videos spelling out you are going to confront a Qantas pilot and accuse them of crimes against humanity is not the best way to keep such an undertaking secret?
     
  21. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  22. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    That is for mean surface wind flow; not cruse altitude.

    Here is the Australian BoM Darwin Analysis centre's site for monthly wind (etc) charts:
    Atmospheric Circulation Patterns

    But the airlines don't fly in a monthly mean flow; they fly on a day to day basis. They vary these long routes to get an optimal path against headwind/tailwind to minimise fuel burn and travel time.
     
  23. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

  24. firepilot

    firepilot New Member

    And that particular page was removed on Aircrap too. They are willing to be part of encouraging this nonsense, but would rather not be part of any consequences.
     
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's still in Google Cache for now:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...th-december/333449/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    Here's an image of the web page:

    http://contrailscience.com/skitch/Syndney_Rally-20111214-154055.jpg
     
  26. AnonymousATCO

    AnonymousATCO New Member

  27. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    For someone who claims the debunkers insult him, he's certainly not shy about insulting other people.

    At about 3:30 in that video he's seeing an aerodynamic contrail, probably from a lower level plane, descending through planes. First from the wingtips, then from the whole wing.

    Sounds like two people showed up for his chat with the pilot, and were met by six police.

    He spends a lot of time discussing this Metabunk thread, but just skips over the science (the great circle, the winds) as the debunkers "discussing some crap".

    It does not sound like he's really interested in the science at all. I'm unsure if attempting to engage him could ever do anything more than make him angry. He's ignored even the simplest of science. If he ignores great circles, then he's not going to spend time discussing ice supersaturation.

    I took no flak from him there, but I would urge those who did to rise above it, and either ignore him, or respond only with the simplest science corrections possible.
     
  28. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Interesting comments by iondetox on that video:

    OK, lips are sealed, mums the word.

    BTW...Welcome to the forum AnonymousATCO.

    As a licensed aircraft mechanic in the past and ex-private pilot, with a degree in aerospace technology and therefore a bona fide expert in the field of aviation and the atmosphere, that's a good call on the aerodynamic contrail/wingtip vortices there Mick. Big heavy plane full of fuel right after takeoff producing a lot of lift, and thus a serious pressure drop over the wings, while climbing into a cloud has a good chance of creating visible vapor trails from at least the wingtips, if not the entire wingspan, before entering the cloud forming layer. Summer time in Sydney, I'll bet it was pretty humid as well so they probably had the right conditions. But I can tell there's no chance that peekay22, or anyone else in the chemmie cult ( and they act every bit like members of a cult ), will listen to the physics involved. Perhaps they lash out in anger because they can't grasp the science?

    Here's a link to a good image of wingtip vortex contrails from an airliner during takeoff.

    http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSuKHgDzoboTLtrYLpvyLdM7scA4BN-s3RoAaQ0dSM9XHAK8Zdupg

    cheers
     
  29. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Wow, this peekay22 chap sounds totally unhinged. Speaking as a prior aviation professional you did good to alert the authorities there Jay.

    cheers
     
  30. firepilot

    firepilot New Member

    I feel so left out, I will have to try harder next time. I can just imagine that the Aussie authorities have started a file on peekay22 after all of this, and they are probably going to keep watching his videos
     
  31. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  32. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Behind the wall and out of sight, there was surely a SWAT team standing by. I'd encourage all these people to stay clear of confrontations at airports and truly hope they can finally escape the insidious delusion they are ensnared in.
     
  33. Ernie Lee

    Ernie Lee New Member

    Thanks you SANE people in helping to expose this Aussie nut case.
    My approach is more direct and I think more effective! I copy his YouTube videos and debunk them for him. Latest is
    PARANOID BOGAN'S DILEMMA-The World MUST BE PARANOID BOGAN'S DILEMMA-The World MUST BE FLAT!



    I know you covered this before but I think he reposted this video ?
    Thanks to all,
    Ernie Lee
     
  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Ernie, that's a great illustration with the globe and the tape there.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I think though you might want to reconsider the irreverent approach you are taking. If you mock someone, then they and their peers will just focus on that, and you loose the opportunity to communicate anything to them. I think it's best to just present the facts in a polite and non-judgmental manner. Otherwise you're just preaching to the choir.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  35. Ernie Lee

    Ernie Lee New Member

    Sorry, tried all that! Works very rarely with the chemtrail paranoids on YouTube. I call them chemnuts. They never reply to an yposts based on science but with a standard "paid by the government shill (I think that what they call us). The chemtrail debunkers have managed to get one very popular video removed and have completely discredited "What in the World are They Spraying?" series. I posted this in Facebook under ernie lee
    Keep trying PLEASE, here and elsewhere !
     
  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Very rarely is better than not at all.

    Calling people names is not helping. It just creates an adversarial situation where communication is impossible. Of course you are not going to convert a "true believer", but by being rude to them you not only drive them away, but you also drive away the more marginal believers.

    I've only got one rule here: Be polite. Impolite posts may be edited or removed.

    I'll let your posts above stand as you are explaining your approach, but I'd appreciate it if you refrain from being impolite in any future posts.
     
  37. Ernie Lee

    Ernie Lee New Member

    Thats OK. That is why I use YouTube ! Have a great Christmas to ALL !
    Ernie
     
  38. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Google Earth.

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  39. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    From the other people at the rally:




     
  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    peekay22 has another video responding to Ernie Lee's illustration above



    He does not seem to full understand great circles, and has ignored the wind aspect of it. But he is at least not entirely ignoring the issues raised.

    I do think he too might benefit a little from toning down the vitriolic rhetoric :)