1. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Do you know what the current flat earth view on southern hemisphere flights is?

    In the beginning they claimed they were all indirect, going via the northern hemisphere, and that flights were unbookable.

    My sense is they moved on from that - maybe to claims about speed - and that now they don't really engage in a debate on SHF at all.

    Not sure what I'm basing that on though, so could be totally wrong.
     
  2. Sascha

    Sascha New Member

    Most still claim it's indirect and try to dismiss (of course without any shred of evidence whatsoever) the direct southern flights.

    I remember one mentioned speed based claim which had wind always blowing conveniently as tailwind regardless which direction the plane goes.

    At least you can be sure that it won't get boring with flat earthers lol
     
  3. Tedsson

    Tedsson Member

    I have found the FE threads here to be really informative. FE was not something I ever really thought much about as it seemed so manifestly silly. And whilst it is profoundly daft it is a more or less harmless delusion (compared to things like alternative medicine and antivaxxers).

    I have seen plenty of FE maps but never inspected them closely. At first glance they could be mistaken for a Transverse Mercator Projection that’s been fiddled with a bit. However, looking at them more closely they are frankly ridiculous and cannot, even with the most tortuous fiddling with the projections, bear any relation to the real world.

    This is a standard FE map (I googled “flat earth map” and this was the first image in the results):

    2C048977-4B69-4471-9840-17C7BD03B001.

    Apart from the obvious horror story that is Australia the rest of it makes little sense. The shortest route UK/Australia is via Sweden - really. I also distinctly remember flying south east from London to Saudi Arabia rather than due east.

    The distance between the tip of South Africa and South America looked ridiculous and seemed to make a mockery of plate tectonics. Apart from the fact that the tectonic plates cannot be fitted to this map the presence of the Mid Atlantic ridge automatically renders the map invalid.

    In the picture above I drew in the MAR in red as best I could. From the bottom point the distance (all numbers are approximate, for obvious reasons) SAF/MAR is 3100km and SAF/SAM 3300km in the real world (measured using google maps distance tool).

    As I can’t find a FE distance measuring tool I used the yellow line between north eastern Brazil and Africa as a yardstick. In the real world the two continents are 3000km apart.

    Using this metric and straight lines (well, why not?) SAF/MAR increases from 3100km to about 9300Km. SAM/MAR increases from 3300km to over 13000km. (The white lines).

    According to the FE map the shortest distance between the tips of the two continents the green line) is about 15,000km (and to fly that you would travel NE across Brazil) whereas in reality the great circle route is about 7,000km.

    I tried to fit a few other aspects of plate tectonics to the FE map but my head exploded and I woke up down a rabbit hole.
     
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    • Like Like x 1
  5. Tedsson

    Tedsson Member

    Thanks for that Mick.

    I knew I had seen one somewhere but used the wrong search description.

    Pretty much supports my rough approximations (measuring distances on an iPad with a ruler!) 15,000 v 15142km SAM/SAF tip to tip.

    Still, no matter how rough my estimates were how can a FE advocate reconcile the 2-3 times greater distances (and known routes) to reality.
     
  6. Tedsson

    Tedsson Member

    The known tectonic plates are virtually impossible to reconcile with the flat earth map.

    These are the plates:

    60848591-F1EA-48C9-B754-F59BAF07BC35.

    Here is half-baked effort at reconciliation:

    EC989365-6D4D-401A-B07D-E5F839A82DB7.

    I gave up as it is nigh on impossible. As with everything else in this nonsensical piece of fiction it becomes more orthogonal to reality the further you get away from the N Pole.

    Obviously the entire community of geophysicists and geologists are in on the FE conspiracy as well. They will get their comeuppance when one of the continents falls off the edge of the planet.
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: May 26, 2018
  7. marrowmonkey

    marrowmonkey Member

    That illustration is problematic since there are three red lines at the right edge but only two on the left and the pacific and antarctic plate boundaries doesn't match up at the edges?
     
  8. Tedsson

    Tedsson Member

    That’s the problem with trying to squeeze a sphere onto a flat plane.

    Try this one, which is shifted away from the standard projection to centre on the Pacific.

    19304CE9-D2A4-45A0-A0DD-45F0D08D9AEE.

    Three plate boundaries on both sides.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. Tedsson

    Tedsson Member

    An additional pointer to the total lack of credibility of the FE map (and thus the entire concept, because if the map is duff the concept is duff) can be found in submarine cables.

    There are currently no submarine cables from southern S America to S Africa. (There are some to central west Africa). However Seaborn Networks are laying one due to go live in 2019.
    (source: https://www.submarinecablemap.com/#/submarine-cable/sabr).

    SABR (South Africa-Brazil geddit?) will run from Recife to Cape Town. The website doesn’t detail the length as it is not finished. However Google Maps gives it a distance of approx. 6100km. It might eventually be slightly longer as it has to have a few kinks to deal with submarine topography and flex to handle mid-ocean expansion.

    The FE distance calculator gives the distance as approx. 12,000km so twice as long (give or take a few hundred kilometres either way). Luckily reality will help prevent the Project Director having to explain the discrepancy.

    You can play this game with any submarine cable although it’s more fun in the Southern Hemisphere and over long distances.
     
  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Unfortunately the argument is usually waved away because they will say they don't know what the map actually is, and all these things like flights, cables, and especially tectonic plates, are fake.

    Best to focus on things they can actually check directly in the real world
     
  11. Tedsson

    Tedsson Member

    OK.

    I posted it here because whilst obviously not flights the cables are lines of communication where the shortest route between two points is imperative on cost grounds.
     
  12. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    An additional southern hemisphere flight:

    Luanda - Sao Paolo - Luanda
    TAAG Angola Airlines
    DT747/746
    Departs Luanda every day except Tuesday and Thursday
    Departs Sao Paolo every day except Wednesday and Friday

    So I make that 84 direct flights every week, and more on occasion. Plus...
     
  13. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    To anyone still following the polar circumnavigation flight in October.
    https://www.overthepoles2018.com/

    There is another YouTube producer with a channel name of GreaterSapien who has raised the volunteer funds needed to go on this trip. He has a lot of Flat Earth debunking videos on his channel and does a good job. Here's the video where he announced his intentions:


    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE7b6Os3TlM

    He of course intends to do what he can to prove this trip is real for his channel.

    I have tried to contact him several times both in his comments section and privately, but I don't know if he has gotten any of my messages in the last week. Just trying to inform him of what I found out a few weeks ago about the whole flat earth issue as told to me by the administrator of the flight. He will have some limitations which he may not yet know about.

    So far I have not seen a Flat Earther strive for the same. No surprise there.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  14. Neil Obstat

    Neil Obstat Member

    I've heard that black box data on long flights doesn't cover the whole flight, because the recording capacity is only about 30 minutes long, so after the first 30 minutes gets recorded then minute 1 is replaced with minute 31, and then minute 2 is replaced with minute 32, etc. So that by the end of the flight only the last 30 minutes of data has been retained.
     
  15. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Seems that this was true for tape, but not for digital:
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  16. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    I had a Red Egg flight data recorder in my house for a while, but had to give it back. The recording wire was long..
     
  17. Neil Obstat

    Neil Obstat Member

    Thanks for the replies, Clouds and Rory.

    IMHO it's going to be totally RESISTED by flat-earthers every which way, to the point where any mention of the flight (after it's been completed) will be denounced unequivocally as a fake project. Satellite data showing tracking of the plane like by NORAD or GPS will be rejected as conspiracy nonsense. Some might revert to denying the existence of satellites (such as "because of the dome"), or that GPS is operated by way of the cell phone tower network, or that NORAD is just as fictional as NASA's photos.

    Flat-earthers await their esteemed leadership to come out with the "party line" to which devout lemming followers all adhere, without thinking on their own. Therefore any consequential discussion must take place with such leaders, but keeping them accountable and honest is a big problem. None of them are going to give assent to questioning, any more than any of them are eager to step up to the plate by occupying a free seat on the plane.

    Nonetheless, I hope the flight takes place as planned, and I hope there are scads of documentation, eyewitnesses, corroborating checkpoints, video footage, interview testimonies and physical evidence. It would be helpful if some passengers who embark on the first leg disembark at subsequent fuel stops, and other passengers embark to take their places. In that way, those who did not take the full round trip can be interviewed on location after disembarking at the various fuel stop locations amidst easily-identified surroundings, with which they are seen interacting so as to show that it's not a blue screen backdrop. I might be expecting too much, though.

    Come to think of it, there are polar-orbiting satellites, that is, satellites that orbit the earth north-to-south such that they pass over the arctic region and the antarctic region alternatively. USA spy satellites passing over Russia (alias USSR) have mapped out scans along meridian lines all across Asia. I've seen flat-earthers try to deny that such a thing is possible. Some have gone from ambivalently accepting the principle of satellites to rejecting them entirely after having been faced with these north-south orbits, which are highly problematic against the flat-earthism fantasy world.

    I recall seeing a cute explanation that tried to apply a "PacMan" scenario such that a satellite or aircraft that passes over the antarctic disappears on that side of the "flat" earth only to reappear on the diametrically opposite side, like PacMan could disappear on the left side of the screen only to reappear on the right side.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. Neil Obstat

    Neil Obstat Member

    What is the source for this moving image, "22388" ? -- The one above that shows a triangle over the south pole with 3 points at Sydney/Auckland, Santiago and Johannesburg?

    What are the 3 angles of this spherical triangle? They appear to be close to 90 degrees. But I don't know how to verify them, using the coordinates of these 3 cities. Or, whether to use Sidney or Auckland to get 3 90s.

    An equilateral triangle on a flat plane always has three 60-degree angles (with a sum of 180 deg.), but on a sphere it's possible to have a triangle with three 90-degree angles (whose sum is 270 deg.). I'd like to know if these 3 cities lie on such a spherical equilateral triangle.

    I understand that the limit of the sum of the 3 interior angles of a spherical equilateral triangle is 540 degrees, and the reason for that is, when the 3 great circle segment sides of such spherical triangle are extended to the point where they lie on the same great circle (such as the equator, for example), each of the interior angles becomes 180 degrees, and at that time you don't have a triangle anymore, but a circle; therefore, the sum of the 3 interior angles must be less than 540 degrees and not equal to 540 degrees. When the three interior angles are 90 degrees, their sum is 270, which is less than 540.

    I realize that this post is starting to go off-topic but I'm not sure if starting a new thread is what I should do here. If you want to split this I wouldn't be surprised. But I hope you don't delete this post because I hope someone has an answer for my question.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  19. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1282946600/pole-to-pole-circumnavigation-of-the-globe#

    Here are the numbers:


    Potential for being dismissed is right there on the Kickstarter page. The flight path on this projection:

    [​IMG]

    It's just an oval!!! LOL!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2018
  20. Neil Obstat

    Neil Obstat Member

    It's just an oval -- HAHAHAHAHA

    How about this one -- "You couldn't fly past the Ice Wall or you would smash into the DOME!"
     
  21. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    Someone could see if a PiAware ADS-B decoder would work in the passenger compartment of a plane. It might be screened from the TX antenna, but there could well be enough RF bouncing around at such close range. https://flightaware.com/adsb/piaware/

    I don't even know whether mobile phones or laptops are allowed on planes these days, but obviously it should be looked into whether it would comply with regulations. Hmm.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
    • Winner Winner x 1
  22. sharpnfuzzy

    sharpnfuzzy Member

    I've used my cell phone's GPS reciever to track flights that I've been on. Using an app like Google My Tracks (now deprecated) gave me a full plot of the flight path as well as altitude and speed. The values were pretty accurate too compared to the on board moving map. It was a bit of a pain though because I had to keep the phone pretty much up against the window for it to catch the satellite signals so I didn't do it a lot. But since the phone can stay in Airplane Mode while you do it, no one on board should have a problem with it.
     
  23. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    A Flat Earther is now also trying to raise the funds to take the October polar circumnavigation flight:
    http://exploringagain.com/donations/over-the-poles-2018/
    http://exploringagain.com/2018/04/11/its-time-the-date-is-set-oct-26th-2018-flight-over-the-poles/

    His name is Michael Marshalek and he is trying to raise $50,000 for the ticket and 'equipment' which he won't be able to use according to my talk with the flight administer. As of this posting he has about 10% of his goal raised.

    No amount of proof in the world will change the minds of the collective. It the flight happens as planned, anyone speaking of this flight in the future will just be labeled a Freemason and kicked out of the hive. It never happened, all fake. Does anyone not see this?
     
  24. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    math isn't my strong suit.. but isn't that 1%?
    upload_2018-6-8_22-52-43.


    Why cant he use a gyrocompass?

    Please stop paraphrasing "flight administrators" without quoting them directly, with their name attached and a copy of your email.

    Also please read the Posting Guidelines, specifically in regards to paraphrasing rules, also read the the Link Policy. https://www.metabunk.org/metabunks-link-policy.t5158/

    Future posts without proper documentation and quotes that follow site guidelines will be removed.
     
  25. Neil Obstat

    Neil Obstat Member

    Yes, that's 1.132% of 50K. (566/50,000 = 0.01132)
     
  26. Neil Obstat

    Neil Obstat Member

    This M.M. could raise suspicions as a troublemaker. Claims he's got a ticket, posting a scan of it on his website, but he also has this bogus flat-earth map on the same page:

    [​IMG]
    ETA: See where he's got "south magnetic pole" in green on the left side?
    That's in the middle of the South Pacific.
    How does that work for someone with a compass in South America?
    Maybe this is why flat-earthers claim that a compass can't point south!​

    They probably have some kind of standards for the passengers, like equipment they're not allowed to carry on board or even if they can carry it on they won't be allowed to use it at their seats. Can you imagine 154 Economy Class passengers all scrambling about with tripods, plug-in gyroscopes, altimeters, satellite hook-ups and cameras? I mean, it raised suspicions to see a passenger (Mick West) holding a torpedo level on his lap!


    Are the flat-earthers going to behave themselves
    when Professor Jaakko Putkonen gives his presentation?
    Or, are they going to turn into a mob of hecklers shouting interruptions?
    This flight might need to have a BRIG set aside in the back!


     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  27. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    Perhaps you ought to follow this thread closer, or am I supposed to re-post everything I ever wrote on this thread each time I post something?
     
  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    In this case, yes. You are talking about specific people. If their buddies direct them to your post about them, it is ridiculous to expect them (or their buddies) to search the thread to see if you previously posted something confirming what you are saying.
     
  29. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    Fine, it looks like without my input no one on this site would have known about this flight.

    I brought my research, but it looks like you don't need me.

    Deleting my account now.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  30. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    because it is such a major issue to rename and re quote your source?
     
  31. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    here is an example of why paraphrasing is frowned upon. You said
    but the fine print page says
    baggage.PNG

    Source: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bzX4UqtXmEG8Th3EqTXq4kAKJ9aSG8zQ/view


    a small discrepancy, but it is still better to link to the fine print page and either type their quote or screen grab it like I did to show proof of what you are saying. It's not that difficult.
     
  32. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    "Ridiculous" is a bit strong in this instance. Maybe there were less confrontational ways the point could have been made?

    It will be a shame to lose someone who has made valuable contributions, and would no doubt do so in the future, because of a quibble over posting guidelines.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  33. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I wasn't calling him ridiculous. and my comment was not written in a confrontational tone. I was just explaining my reasoning. I can't think of a better way to word it, so perhaps you can suggest an alternative.
     
  34. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Not everything, no - but in this case, because you are talking about specific people, you should quote them again, or link to their words. If their buddies direct them to your post about them, it's pretty unlikely that they (or their buddies) will search the thread to see if you previously posted something confirming what you are saying.

    Something like that.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  35. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    perfect. thanks for the feedback.
     
    • Like Like x 1