1. Ranon151

    Ranon151 New Member

    Right, I'm saying that if it flew the Great Circle route on a flat Earth, the distance would be over 26,000 miles. On a round earth, the great circle distance is only 6300 miles, easily traveled in 14 hours.
     
  2. StarGazer

    StarGazer Member

    Debunking the Flat Earth Azimuthal Equidistant Map Projection is much easier than it looks.

    This is the Real Azimuthal Equidistant Map Projection for spherical Earth:

    azimuthalequidistant.

    The Mean Radius of spherical Earth is 3 959 miles
    The Circumference of the Equator for 3 959 miles mean radius is 24 875 miles
    (Circumference Calculator)

    The Distance North Pole - Equator is approx 6 215 miles

    When we flatten a globe onto a 2 dimensional map, one thing must remain constant and that is the Circumference of the Equator.
    Therefore the Flat Earth Azimuthal Equidistant Map Projection would have the following inevitable errors:

    33esu2a.

    Since the Circumference of the Equator is a circle of approx 24 875 miles then the radius of that circle must be 3 959 miles.

    Difference between 6 215 miles (known distance North Pole - Equator) and 3 959 miles is 6 215 - 3 599 = 2 256 miles or 6 215 / 3 959 = 1.57.
    So we have 2 256 miles less or 1.57 times smaller distance value from the FE North Pole to the FE Equator.

    If flat earthers had to stick to the know distance of 6 215 miles, then:
    The FE Equatorial circumference would have to be 1.57 times larger than the known or 24 875 miles x 1.57 = 39 053 miles


    We know that the Equator divides the Earth in half and we know that a degree of latitude neat the Equator is approx 69.097 miles and diminishes near the poles.

    We also know that the Sun travels on the celestial sphere 15 degrees per hour which also means that it travels 1 degree every 4 minutes (60/15=4).

    Since 1 degree = 69.097 miles and 24 hours a day = 1 440 minutes:

    15 degrees per hour x 69.097 miles = 1 036.455 miles, so 1 036.455 miles x 24 hours = 24 874.92 miles

    The Sun makes 360 degrees circle on both models of the Earth, so 360 degrees x 69.097 miles = 24 874.92 miles

    So the Sun movement at the Equator on the Celestial Sphere also indicates the Equatorial Circumference is approx 24 875 miles.


    Conclusion:
    The Flat Earth Azimuthal Equidistant Map Projection does Not properly represent parallels and compresses the shapes and sizes of landmasses North of the Equator and extends the shape and sizes of landmasses South of the Equator.

    When we look at the real Azimuthal Equidistant Map Projection, we are looking at spherical Earth form above the North Pole, therefore the circumference of the Equator is 24 875 miles, but since the surface of the Earth is curved, not flat, the distance North Pole - Equator is 6 215 miles, which is not a straight line in spherical geometry, but an arc of spherical Earth with mean radius of the sphere of 3 959 miles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2017
  3. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Even without using actual measurements, it's clear that the map cannot be correct: it is drawn with the "equator" at half the radius from the centre.

    So, calling the radius of the whole disc r, the area of the "northern hemisphere" is π x (r/2)2, or (πr2)/4.

    The area of the "southern hemisphere" is πr2 minus the area of the northern hemisphere, or πr2 - (πr2)/4, which equals (3πr2)/4.

    In other words, the southern hemisphere is three times the size of the northern hemisphere on this map.
     
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  4. StarGazer

    StarGazer Member

    Also different circumferences for the FE Sun to traverse throughout the year indicate:

    1. The FE Sun has different velocities in order to maintain the 24h daily cycle. Circling slower at the northern hemisphere and faster at the southern hemisphere.
    2. The FE Sun changes angular diameter, i.e. Shape Shifting Sun. When it's in the northern hemisphere it has smaller angular diameter and when it's in the southern hemisphere it has larger angular diameter.
     
  5. Amber Robot

    Amber Robot Member

    Do you not see the irony in trying to use a GPS system to prove the round earth?
     
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  6. john Mont

    john Mont New Member

     
  7. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    In addition to that flight, and the one that broke its record 30 years later, detailed here, there is also Elgen Long, who was the first to fly around the world over both poles, in 1971:



    Also: Calin Rosetti and Richard Norton in 1987; Dick Smith and Giles Kershaw in 1988/89; Bill Harrelson in 2015; and Miguel Gordillo in 2016.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2017
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  8. Ashley_75

    Ashley_75 New Member

    I am amused by the irony in trying to use science & scientific arguments to convince a flat-earther, whose only motivation to believe the flat-earth is to prove that science is wrong.
     
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  9. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    This map appears to show several direct transoceanic southern hemisphere flights that I wasn't aware of, including:
    • Singapore-Johannesburg
    • Singapore-Mauritius
    • Mauritius-Hong Kong
    • Mauritius-Chengdu
    • Mauritius-Ghuangzhou
    • Mauritius-Shanghai
    • Hong Kong-Johannesburg
    There's also a flight on the map from what looks like Sao Paolo, Brazil, to somewhere in Asia. While Wikipedia has a flight to Beijing, at the minute that's only a connecting flight, so not sure what that is, unless it's cargo.

    Note: while not exclusively southern hemisphere, those flights would look vastly different on a flat earth map.
     
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  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It is from data from 2013, so some routes might no longer exist (or there may be new routes). It's also possible that some are misreported as direct flights when they actually included another stop.
     
  11. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    That makes sense.

    The list above I verified on flightbooking websites, so they're currently in operation. Kiwi.com is probably one of the best places for finding southern hemisphere flights, as you can draw circles around large areas and search expressly for direct flights between all places within the radius. Or I look on skyscanner and search for "Brazil to everywhere, direct only", for example.
     
  12. retlaw

    retlaw New Member

    It has been mentioned that 75% of Antarctica is a no fly zone because the lack of good topographical maps.
    Reason being is satellites don't flyover the poles.
    You can track the International Space Station and all the other satellites with this live stream satellite tracker.
    http://www.n2yo.com/

    Gives everything from location, time, longitude, latitude etc.
    Just scroll through click on the satellite you want to track and away you go.
    I have not found one that travels over the poles.
    They come close in their wave pattern but never cross over.
     
  13. Justin L. Franks

    Justin L. Franks New Member

    This is because an orbit with a 90° inclination would require constant correction due to precession. Satellites can only carry so much fuel for stationkeeping, so orbits which "correct themselves" are chosen. For low-earth orbit, this means an inclination about 8 degrees away from the poles.
     
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  14. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    They have an inclination of 55 degrees so they are always visible where we fly over Antarctica. Even if they weren't, we still have three Laser Ring Gyro Inertial Navigation systems onboard that can navigate to the accuracy required.

    Many Flat Earth believers forget about those. I wonder how they thought we crossed the Pacific before GPS was invented?
     
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  15. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    First non-stop flight from Australia to London landed this morning, covering 9000 miles in just over 17 hours.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-43530332

    Big distance, though the incompatibility with the flat earth model isn't as great as those flights that are purely in the southern hemisphere.
     
  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Metabunk 2018-03-25 07-55-05.
     
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  17. sharpnfuzzy

    sharpnfuzzy Member

    This weekend's flight was the first regularly scheduled non-stop flight. The first non-stop ever was in 1989 and was a delivery flight of Qantas' first 747-400 from London to Sydney. There were only 16 "passengers" on board though.

    http://www.airwaysmuseum.com/Qantas 1st England-Aust non-stop 1989.htm
     
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  18. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Maybe it did a dog leg to the south of India and then over the middle east to England. ;)

    gleason map.JPG
     
  19. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    Is anyone aware of the next polar circumnavigation taking place on October 26 2018? It will be the first since 1977 where paying passengers are allowed. This is the perfect chance for someone to verify or quash their Flat Earth theory. Four points on the ground starting in New York USA, Rio Gallegos Argentina, Perth Australia, Beijing China and back to New York crossing both Poles in the process (daylight crossing of the South Pole) in an attempt to break the previous speed record on board an Airbus A340-500 with 186 passenger seats available. https://www.overthepoles2018.com/

    It would be good to get a couple of people onboard to document it so some groups wouldn't be able to say it never happened...
     
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  20. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Maybe B.O.B. can take his Kickstarter money and buy a ticket on this instead. It's only twelve thousand dollars.

    What's the guessing on how a flat earther on board would explain their trip? (Assuming they're measuring, plotting, photographing, tracking, and verifying, etc.)
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2018
  21. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    Or get some of the YouTube promoters of the flat earth theory to divert YouTube and donation funds for a week to pay the price for two tickets. You would need two tickets; one flat earth believer and one person to watch him.

    Excuses a flat earth proponent will give to avoid going:
    1) It's impossible, why do you believe Freemasons?
    2) It will be faked somehow.
    3) We would be wasting our money on a scam.
    4) They will make everyone pull the window shades when they need to 'play tricks'.
    5) "The Military" will shoot us down.
    6) Suicide - the plane would hit the "Firmament".

    The excuses after the fact:
    1) Every passenger was a Freemason.
    2) They drugged and used mind control on all those passengers.
    3) The plane did something magical at night while everyone was sleeping.
    4) The plane flew over the ice wall in daytime and returned back somewhere in South America and told you it was Australia - "did you get off the plane in Australia or China? How do you know you were in Australia or China?"
    5) We only flew to the ice wall and then entered a secret transport portal to arrive at a different point on the "Firmament"
    6) All true information was suppressed and controlled by 'The Illuminati'.

    I see this this kind of logic all the time on my debunking channel on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/user/ForbiddTV

    The key to this flight of course is the 6600mile/12hour segment of the flight from Rio Gallegos Argentina to Perth Australia, most of that time spent over snow and ice. If you plot it you will see it doesn't take much of a course change to divert directly over the South Pole.

    If I were wealthy... bring several video cameras that have a 50hr power supply, various compasses, GPS devices and other equipment that would prove the flight happened as advertised. Post everything online. Although this would be absolute proof the FE map just isn't possible, the community will persevere by posting their version of what happened (use that magic word 'Illuminati' and everything is fine) or just ignoring it completely. Getting a FE proponent to go on the flight just won't happen. They do their best to avoid real research.
     
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  22. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Still, I think it's great that you found out about this flight, and so early in the day. $12,000 is a lot of money for most people, but it's not too much of a stretch to imagine a large group putting that together quite easily - especially when it's the most important thing in the world (to them).

    Maybe we need to get the word out about this? Is your channel popular? Is there a way to encourage a couple of prominent flat earthers to step up to the plate? We could even start a gofundme for them.

    Q. If you could put two flat Earth believers on this flight, who would you choose? Rob Skiba and Jeranism are the two that first occur to me - but then they've both shown themselves repeatedly unable to do simple experiments or understand basic concepts, so may not be the best.
     
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  23. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    And given the recent media coverage of FE belief, it's not inconceivable that some TV channel might be interested in sticking a flat earther and a debunker together, and sending them on this flight. Small change to them.
     
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  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I'd volunteer to be the observer :)
     
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  25. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    I’m doing three return trip in the next two months. Happy to host!
     
  26. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    I have a bunch of Flat Earth debunking videos on my channel, but alas, I'm just not too prominent on YouTube (10,500 subscribers/1.4 million views), with only 500 views in three weeks on the video I did talking about the flight:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn70idA_QCY
    Debunking the lies are never nearly as popular on the internet as the lies themselves are. :(

    Honestly I don't know which FEers should go since every single one of them is purposely dishonest and doing what they do for other reasons, so I don't think you would be able to get one to go even if you paid their ticket. They will violently avoid doing any real research other than in their YouTube University echo chamber of credulity.

    I like your media idea though, perhaps the Discovery Channel? I could make such a documentary myself, but I just don't have the connections to bring it to massive audiences. I do know some producers I could approach about it though...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 13, 2018
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  27. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Brian Mullin? Patricia Steere? Mullin was respected cos he was an engineer. Tho last time I checked I think there was a suspicion he'd abandoned ship.

    Mark Sargent's not particularly objectionable.

    It's a sad day when we can't think of a single FEr we would trust to figure out they're flying around a globe!
    Go for it. I would think even the BBC might be interested. Didn't they have a ''conspiracy theory road trip" show? And they also sent a bunch of young earth creationists around the US with a comedian to have their beliefs challenged.

    There must be one flat earther who might be objective enough, and coherent enough, to make good TV.
     
  28. Sascha

    Sascha New Member

  29. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

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  30. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    I can think of dozens of them I would 'trust' to go on the trip as long as they would stand up for their beliefs on their pre-interview taping for the show and their beliefs as the flight progressed. They got to make their case believable to the FE crowd, not just there to secretly debunk them to get a free trip around the world. I'm just saying getting one of the prominent names to go would probably not be possible since they would be cutting their own throats if trip was proven valid and actually occurred as advertised. We would probably have to get one of their followers to go which would be much easier. I could find one of them easily, they troll my channel daily.

    I have sent out my first feeler message to someone I know that has produced shows for the Discovery Channel. If I don't hear from them in a display of interest, I'll try the BBC next. Anyone out there have an 'insider' lead to the BBC? I don't want to send it out there to dozens of networks yet, the show promoters will hope for "an exclusive" for the trip.
     
  31. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Yup. I'll get on to that too.

    If you end up knocking up a proposal, maybe you could send it me and I could use that too?
     
  32. Clouds Givemethewillies

    Clouds Givemethewillies Active Member

    All their good guys fell off the edge. Curiosity killed the cat
     
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  33. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think if one were to do such a thing — take a flat earther on a flight over the South Pole — the focus should be on documenting the flight as verifiably as possible, rather than simply trying to convince the FE guy. Either he will reject the evidence, or he'll accept it and everyone will call him a shill.

    Also - you'd probably want to pick someone who's not some kind of antisemite. You'd want to have someone who has a chance of becoming a reasonable advocate for science afterwards. That might be difficult.
     
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  34. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Shall we brainstorm a list of equipment to take and measurements one would want to do on such a flight?

    Also, what kind of prep would you do beforehand? (E.g., predictions, such as what either party might expect when flying several thousand miles south from Argentina).
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2018
  35. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    I went looking to see if there was another definition of the word "antisemite" I was not familiar with. I couldn't find an alternative definition of the word other than a general prejudice and hatred against Jews. I haven't generally seen this to be the case with Flat Earthers that I have been dealing with as trolls on my channel, perhaps your experience has been different. Their position is generally we have all been 'indoctrinated' since birth to believe in the spherical earth by the media and education system. I rarely hear any mention of Jews specifically in dealing with Flat Earth (no more so than Chemtrails, Vaccines, Fukushima, Nibiru/Planet X, or end of the world). I'm also puzzled by the connection between antisemitism and science denialism.


    My knowledge of aircraft instrumentation and navigation is limited, but I would start with a compass, flight duration timer, wristwatch altimeter, and geiger counter (there is much more radiation at altitude and probably even more at the poles) and of course several video cameras. I would think the limitation would largely be what could fit in carry-on luggage allowed on the flight in overhead compartments that would also stand the up to the scrutiny of a bewildered TSA official. I don't know if stowed luggage would even be allowed on such a flight (you disembark at the same airport you left from two days earlier) or would be useful for instrumentation unattended for two days in any event. Our own "black boxes" would of course be the ideal situation, but my understanding is these are plugged directly into the aircraft's systems. No Flat Earther would trust the aircraft's own black box information even if we would be allowed to download it after the flight.
     
  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Their theory forces them to be extreme conspiracy theorists and historical revisionist, which ties in with the most common underlying theory - there's some kind of global cabal running things. That in turn is very frequently supposed to be a Jewish cabal.

    Here's the most famous flat earth promoter discussing the topic:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IB-LvYcRWUQ

    I was earlier going to suggest one FE guy who I though seemed quite nice, but then I noticed he'd got a Rothschilds/Pizzagate video on his channel. This is really a note of caution, not a sweeping generalization but unfortunately I think it's a bit more prevalent that it might at first appear.
     
  37. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    The chap who runs one of the most prominent flat Earth Facebook groups also said in a TV interview that he felt Jews were behind the 'conspiracy'.

    Not sure Mick was suggesting a direct link between antisemitism and science denialism - maybe more that since the former are so clearly irrational in one way, it would be illogical to expect them to be rational in other ways.
     
  38. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I was noting that there seems (to me) to be a significant number of the FE crowd who are also antisemitic. The link is with systemic conspiracy theories (Illuminati, Elders of Zion, etc), not science denialism.
     
  39. ForbiddTV

    ForbiddTV Closed Account

    Here's the deal. I spoke at length today with Jose, the administer of this polar circumnavigation flight in October.

    1) This is the last flight of his 30 years in in the travel business that he is arranging and is retiring after this flight. He wants it to be a positive flight in aviation history and a positive end to his career.
    2) His primary goal of this flight is to celebrate aviation history and the Pan Am flight in 1977 (a relative of his was involved in that flight in 1977).
    3) He has no interest in the flight becoming a "Flat Earth" circus.
    4) He has "no interest in proving to some imbeciles that the earth is round" (his words). "If they don't believe I don't care, you probably can't prove anything to them anyway." He mentioned them as probably Donald Trump supporters.
    5) He also told me he wants no instruments, compasses or experiments conducted on this flight. "Anyone who causes disruptions will be placed in handcuffs in the back of the plane for the balance of the flight." He said he has high security on this flight.
    6) There will be representatives from Airbus and the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fédération_Aéronautique_Internationale onboard to officially verify the completion of this flight.
    7) He was contacted already by The Flat Earth Society (he used those exact words, but it's logical it could have been some other group) and was accused that the flight was being paid by NASA and the whole thing was a sham.
    8) Another fringe group wanted him to make arrangements to fly over Hitler's "secret Antarctica bunker/base".
    9) He suggested someone else should charter a private jet (about $1.5 million he says) to conduct such alternative agenda flights themselves.
    10) But he would very much welcome a reputable TV documentary crew like the BBC or Discovery Channel to document the flight and is waiting for one more document needed to get that process started where he will then put out press
    releases about the flight. "If they just happened to prove the nature of the earth's shape in the process, that would be fine." He has sections set aside for the media and their equipment. He mentioned a couple of famous reporter names that were invited to be on this trip.
    11) [to answer my previous question] According to the fine print on the website the luggage limit is 36 pounds total in two bags maximum as carry-on only. No stowed luggage.

    If one media outlet wanted to have the Flat Earth vs. Round Earth debate story, it would have to be kept low key mostly centering around pre and post interview B-rolls. Would they would be open to something like Niel deGrasse Tyson and B.O.B. sitting next to each other on this flight discussing Flat earth vs Round Earth on this flight? He made it clear to me that Flat Earthers are invited as long as it does not detract from the primary goals of 1 & 2 above.

    That's about it, I am not going to actively pursue this matter after my discussion with him. We as debunkers will have the evidence we need to prove this flight happened, but he's right, a Flat Earther will dismiss it even with the absolute evidence that we will have. The Southern Hemisphere flights already conducted regularly are absolute proof that their FE map is totally false, the only difference with this flight is that it will cross the South Pole, which is also just as impossible on their map.

    If anyone wants to pursue this further I can send you the TV documentary show proposal I sent to the one person I knew at the Discovery Channel, but I gotta tell you it became quite involved when I started learning about the laws involved, and the ins and outs of hiring literary agents if you wanted your rights protected and keep your idea from being stolen. If you wanted full control of the situation you would really have to risk producing and filming the program independently on your own dime, and then hope some network wishes to buy it from you after the fact or while in production. It's a way too expensive of a proposition for me to take on for a YouTube Channel that isn't even monetized.
     
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  40. Sascha

    Sascha New Member

    Ah, couldn't find them in the thread, so posted them.

    With the first one I see why I couldn't find it lol: SAA280 vs SA280 :D

    It's nice to see that there are many more flights than expected and also from that many different airlines. Flat earthers basically will have to retreat to claiming that generally everybody is part of that grand conspiracy now. And that would include a lot of people...