1. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    Please explain more about the Pentagon Air Defences, what they consisted of and how they were deactivated.

    I know a bit about Air Defences so am really interested how it would work in the middle of a city, accross the river from an airport.
     
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  2. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Everyone knows that. It is the system where at the press of a button shutters go down, the Pentagon is lowered below ground and number of towers are raised up bristling with Phalanx and Stinger ready to shoot down anything over a densely populated area.
     
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  3. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    Dave, don't spoil it. I waiting for a sincerely believed CT concept of missile batteries 1000m from Reagan Airport, not to mention both Andrews and Dulles in the flight line.
     
  4. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    I was only semi joking. I may be wrong but at the time was it not Avenger for close distance and Patriot for long distance the systems used by the US? I just like the idea that the Pentagon can have a specific air space within a built up area, and as you say on top of an airport. But these systems have a tendency to stand out a little bit and I suspect may get noticed by people.
     
  5. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    "Uh uh, well Virgil, all systems are go". "The Brits have certainly taken our advice on this one. Hell they even have fighter planes as well, whatever next. Shame those usually paranoid Neocons ignored our warnings before 9/11 and stood everything down". "Guess they won't be needing our assistance Virgil, Mr Tracy will be relieved, the Hood won't stand a chance"

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/olympics-air-defence-plan-given-goahead-7906083.html

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-RAF-Northolt-Olympics-military-build-up.html

     
  6. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    The actual missile type is not the problem. The problem is target discrimination and who manages the ROZ (restricted operating zone) stack and their ROE. Lets not forget of course these things are hardly discreet, their their requirement to have a clear view of - you know - the sky...
     
  7. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    Hilarious. Where and what type of batteries where in Washington DC on 911?
     
  8. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    Mick, thanks for moving this to its own discussion. Ill ask some USAF blokes I know to get an answer on the Air Defences around DC. Obviously some people wil not trust the answer, but as far as I know, the air defences was entirely interceptor aircraft only, and facing an external threat.

    More to follow I guess...
     
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  9. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    I've always understood the difficulties of air defenses at the pentagon were largely this:

    image.

    Target discrimination at the end of an airport runway would be an untenable problem for something like a phalanx CIWS, and simply an incredibly fraught one for systems that aren't semi-autonomous.
     
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  10. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    It's very important not to look at an event in hindsight when judging the decisions made during it. Prior to 9/11, every hijacked airliner ever had either been held for ransom, used to reach a destination other than its intended one, or in a few cases directly robbed itself and then released.

    The wholesale killing of passengers and crew was rare, destruction of the aircraft unheard of, much less destruction of the aircraft by flying it into a building. No airliner had ever hit a large building, intentionally or otherwise.

    Unprecedented events always look very, very different from the other side. Just because unprecedented action could have stopped the event doesn't mean the nature of the event was clear in time to take that action. Especially considering that unprecedented action would have meant killing US citizens in domestic air space over populated cities.

    The irony here being, had they stopped the attacks by taking that unprecedented action, they've also made it much harder to prove the event was unprecedented and called for such a response. Again, applying hindsight to the opposite outcome will just create an equal-but-opposite conspiracy theory when by immediate appearances the Pentagon responded to a hostage situation by blowing up the victims.
     
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  11. econ41

    econ41 Active Member

    It's been some years since I thought through and commented on this matter - the consideration of "shoot down" options - BUT I recall two big issues:
    1) The time lines don't work out esp the time frame between "recognition that this was a changed game" and "last possible time to shoot";THEN
    2) The risk management doesn't add up in favour of "shoot down" - even if risk was assessed purely on the simplistic "lives lost either way" - ignoring political reality. Both internal to US and the international ramifications from both friends and foes of the US.

    Plus - as Hevach says - it has to be in prospect NOT hindsight. I would be surprised if the possibility had not been game planned but maybe put quite low on the probability scale. Even that would be grist to the CT's mill and AFAIK no such planning has "leaked". ;)
     
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  12. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    Very true. Prior to 9/11 cockpit security was a joke on every airline except El Al.

    Cockpit doors had a simple standard lock that anyone in the airline industry would know how to open. The door itself could be kicked in if necessary.

    Hijacking procedures were to follow directions from the hijackers and wait it out. This was universal.

    US air defences on the day were caught up in inertia and a scenario no one had seriously contemplated. I believe there were less than 15 air defence fighters on readiness, covering the entire country.

    I watch the entire morning unfold and had no idea what would happen next. Pretty much everyone in power at the time would have been in the same boat.
     
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  13. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...8cddbc-d8ce-11e0-9dca-a4d231dfde50_story.html

    A relevant story on the state of DC's air defense (not just the Pentagon's) before and on 9/11. A major consideration that I didn't think of when this was first posted: The US has never been threatened from the air, and very few countries even have the ability to do so because of the US's naval dominance. Our defenses were based around a direct, large-scale assault by a major world power and an internal attack utilizing a civilian aircraft was so far outside the rules of engagement nobody could even figure out what to do in the short window of opportunity. So, again, unprecedented events look very different from the other side.

    The best plan was two pilots launching without orders or preflights and ramming Flight 93 before it got to Washington, and the whole reason for two pilots to do this instead of just one was because they weren't even sure where to hit an airliner.

    The neat thing about a lot of planes is they fly themselves better without a pilot than with (there are several examples of fighter planes breaking out of spins and heading off on autopilot after the panicked pilot ejected), so the result of ejecting could be the fighter plane heading off on its own and needing to be shot down later, with Flight 93 still heading to Washington (and now two helpless pilots forced to watch it go).
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2016
  14. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    That's probably a quote that needs debunking... Happy to take it up o another thread...

    (Pilots union local 502)
     
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  15. cloudspotter

    cloudspotter Senior Member


    Poor kid! Seriously unlucky

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_Belgian_MiG-23_crash
     
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  16. Hevach

    Hevach Senior Member

    Yeah, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of when I wrote that. Or the cornfield bomber, which broke out of a flat spin and made a survivable landing after the pilot ejected. Also, there was a case discussed here on Metabunk where the pilot of a small plane either died or fell unconscious and his plane flew from somewhere around Tennessee out into the Gulf of Mexico, overflew Cuba, and finally crashed when it ran out of fuel.

    What I meant was the uncanny ability for planes to recover and keep flying after pilots have abandoned it, not that pilots are secondary or unnecessary or that I'd trust the plane itself to do anything except fly in a straight line until it can't anymore.
     
  17. Davidb

    Davidb New Member

    i

    if the flight deck doors were opened during flight, wouldn't that be recorded by the FDR? for both 77 and 93 have they ever been checked?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2016
  18. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    Back then? No.



    ...yes, we were given keys that would work in ANY cockpit door, prior to
    Semteber 11, 2001.

    [ off topic text removed ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 2, 2016
  19. Davidb

    Davidb New Member

    Understood, I asked this question based on a lecture from Dennis Cimino, he seemed to know what he was talking baout
     
  20. TWCobra

    TWCobra Senior Member

    The 757 in question had been retro-fitted with a FDR capable of recording the position but not the sensors required to register the door position.

    The FDR readout showed that the door had not been opened at all in the previous 11 flights and 41 hours.

    Detailed here. http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=The_Cockpit_Door
     
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  21. Davidb

    Davidb New Member

    thanks so much