1. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    I have no idea :-|

    Well, let´s use your clip for the moment. I zoomed in and split the screen into 3 areas:

    [​IMG]


    I think what we see is like a dozen (but at least 5) core columns in three different bundles.
    Maybe the most obvious is the bundle on the right hand side. At least two columns can be seen here, to me it looks more like 5 or more in various lenghts. I´m quite sure that this is what I called the "obvious" core column that I highlighted orange before.
    In the center area we have another bundle of at least two columns (think I see three). I would call this bundle the corner breaker, since it is going straight for the sw edge of WTC7 and is most definitaly the one responsible for the sw corner damage.
    To the left we see the gash maker and the smaller object diverging from it as we already noticed before.

    A better shot of the gash maker coming up soon ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2015
  2. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Well, a slightly better shot let´s say...


    [​IMG]


    I don´t now, do I have to highlight the core column I strongly believe to see here?
    You can see that flying object again we already noticed before. Maybe a deformed floor section is not the best guess for that.
    But whatever this is, the other object below it, that longish thing, can be nothing but a core column in my opinion.

    That´s it, I´ve got nothing more to add to convince you.

    If you agree on my gash maker hypothesis, please remember how impossible it was to tell it´s a core column by other angles. Think about how many other core columns may have been totally cloaked by dust while they might have done the same thing we saw some core columns do - tipping over in tall sections.

    Even if you don´t agree on the actual gash maker, please look at the gif in the last post again. All those visible core columns there, you hopefully at least agree on seeing some of them.

    So this is really not just about one or two core columns. The whole second wave of debris, which significantly added to the spread of debris, essentially seems to be core columns only. But this is just the upper ends of the columns, what we can´t see is how much stuff they are pushing underneath the dust.

    Don´t underestimate the core columns folks!

    Thanks for your attention :)
     
  3. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    How can you tell it's a piece of the core column and not a piece of the façade?
     
  4. trevor

    trevor Active Member

    we should try changing the video's or gifs to "colour processed".

    here's an example

    [​IMG]

    you can see windows popping that you probably never noticed in the original videos. We're going to have to find a way to "highlight" the debris, i have no clue how to do that.
     
  5. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Active Member

    If this is in fact the tall vertical gash, my sense is that it was cause by a facade panel from quite high up. The trajectory of a panel which was part of a tall assembly which tipped over would have a parabolic path... and over the time of its flight the path would become more and more vertical. It's also possible that the very top panel of a "peel" could be "whipped" free, and sail as a heavy 4 or 8 or more ton object which would have little problem bashing through the spandrels if it had enough velocity.

    For this to be the damage from the top end of a core column realize that the weight of the core columns..... such as a top 36' length was much less than a panels assembly.

    However the photo looks weird and I am not sure that is even a gash.

    The facade collapse PRECEDED the core... all those "things" with lots of dust streaming behind them are facade panels... the core has not collapsed yet. The orientation of the and the bracing plan caused the core solumns to almost in all cases fall east and west... not north and south. There are debris photos which show this and with the core falling after the facade they lie on the top of the debris pile.

    Lookie here:

    http://www.sharpprintinginc.com/911...m_id=1&PHPWS_Photo_op=view&PHPWS_Photo_id=320
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2015
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  6. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Gosh damn! A wall section indeed hit the gash area! First time I noticed it!

    But before I show it to you all, let me say this:

    Jeffrey Orling, you don´t agree on the gash maker being a core column? Fine.
    But if you still deny that several core columns in lengths far beyond 36' fell to north directions, I really wonder where you looking at.
    I mean, look that gif again, the right and center area. You really wanna tell me you can´t see those bundles of core columns?!? Damn, they´re so obvious! How is it even possible to overlook them or take them for wall sections? I don´t get it...


    [​IMG]

    These are core columns Sir, beyond any doubt!


    But now to my new finding.
    I will show it as a video to have the best quality I can provide:



    It´s almost but not exactly the same angle as the gif above.
    I highlighted that bunch of debris again where the gash maker should be.
    You can see that flying thing again,
    below it is that longish thing I (still) suspect to be the gash making core column
    and below that, if you look carefully, you should notice the wall section.
    It´s not lined up vertically anymore as it was in it´s original placement, it´s lined up horizontally now.

    So how could that longish object behind/above it ever be part of it?
    It´s not.
    In my opinion the visible wall section even more helps to rule out, that the longish object is a wall section too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  7. jaydeehess

    jaydeehess Senior Member

    No it doesn't 'strongly suggest that at all.


    It should be visible laying on top of WTC5(or is it 6, across the street from #7)

    -----
    groan
    I cannot even say with confidence that that second 'wave' of material is directed at WTC 7 or more to its east.
    If its a section of core, then something should be visible laying on top of the debris from WTC1 to the debris of WTC7. Find that and I may consider you scenario to have some merit. Up to now its pure supposition.
     
  8. BombDr

    BombDr Senior Member

    I really do not see the reason for such confidence here. How exactly are you assessing what flying debris is what from basic video analysis?
     
  9. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Sorry, but I don´t know what to answer.
    You could tell an apple from a banana, even on a b/w-picture, couldn´t you? Then you know how this works.

    If your eyes don´t see what the pictures show, I can´t help it.
     
  10. qed

    qed Senior Member

    I watched your video over and over and I at 0.40 I recognise a structure I have seen many times on this site.
    facade.
    It is the outer columns, i.e., the façade. Your video at 0.40 shows it more clearly than my screenshot.
     
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  11. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    That´s cool, but you didn´t really read what I said about the video, did you?
    I already mentioned that facade section and pointed out, that it looks different to the core column that can be seen above the facade section.

    But hey, you´re almost there.

    Now hunt for that very same facade section while watching this gif again:

    [​IMG]

    Once you found it, you should realize the core column above/behind it, too.
     
  12. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Will I see this in the video? If so, using 0.40 as reference when will your object be in view?
     
  13. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    In the video, the moment the facade disappears behind WTC7 is the moment the core column "emerges" from the smoke right above the disappearing facade.

    Did you already find the facade section in the gif?
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2016
  14. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Yes I have that moment 0.40 for example. Before I look, is it one of these I am looking out for?
    [​IMG]
    [... at the top in the middle area ...]
     
  15. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Sure, what else.
     
  16. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    At the beginning of the gif loop, you can see an antenna on the western penthouse. The facade section will be passing right behind it. Try to catch it shortly before it does so. It´s quite hard to see/identify the facade section in the gif, but it´s there.
     
  17. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Can we use 0.40 as a reference. At 0.41 I am reasonably sure I can see the façade rotating. I have outlined it in red. At what time after 0.41 does your object enter the picture?
    facade41-outlined.
     
  18. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    It´s already there:

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    It's not behind; it's debris plume is in front of the facade section @qed identified. Upon rewatching it appears rigidly connected to the segment to its right. This suggests an adjacent facade section with an 'm' shaped top to me.
     
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  20. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    That is the facade section @qed pointed out. It's far to wide for a core column.
     
  21. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Draw it in please. I am not disagreeing with you, just looking for it.
     
  22. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    I already did. Orange colour.
     
  23. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Sorry, I thought you were crossing out my outline of the façade:oops:.

    1. Is your object lying along the red line in-front of the façade shape I outlined?
    2. Is your object as long as your red line?
     
  24. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Is this it? facade-37-proposed-core-column.
     
  25. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Sorry, I don´t understand your first question (I´m german). Could you please repeat it in different words or so?

    @2.:
    The upper end of the core column would be exactly where the orange line ends at the top.
    The lower end would probably be even outside of the picture. But this is speculation, since the very most part of the column is covered by dust and crap. Only about the upper third of my orange line is not completely covered, you can barely see/identify it as a longish object in your picture. It´s not a good picture to identify the column, but it´s where you should look for it in the video (and in the gif which in my opinion is the best footage to identify the gash making core column).
     
  26. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Yes!
     
  27. qed

    qed Senior Member

    @Zett eL

    I can see what you see, but I also have another hypothesis. I need some time to draw it up. Then we can think of ways to test the two ideas against what happens next in the video.

    I am assuming that you are a scientist in search of truth. Many people come to Metabunk just to fool around with us, not really caring about the truth. Arguing is just fun for them. That just wastes our time. I really enjoy working this stuff out.

    [... I have lost electricity so it may be a while ...]
     
  28. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Yeah sure, take your time!

    I never considered myself as a scientist, but yes, this is about searching the truth and if it turns out that I´m wrong, I´ll be glad to learn of it. On german boards you hardly find anything else but time wasters, I´m so sick of it myself...
     
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  29. qed

    qed Senior Member

    I have created a looping gif of the period in question.
    [​IMG]
     
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  30. qed

    qed Senior Member

    @Zett eL If I have understood you correctly, in the following image, you see the magenta/purple shape as one object, a core column, and the red shape as a façade columns (correct me if I have misunderstood you). Let us call this hypothesis A. Two independent objects.
    [​IMG]
    I have an alternative hypothesis B. I feel that there is only one object, looking something like the red in the following diagram. This object is a huge connected piece of the façade.
    [​IMG]

    1. Have I described your view correctly?
    2. Do you think my hypothesis B is possibly true?
     
  31. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    1.: Basically yes.
    2.: Basically no.

    I´m in a hurry right now, I will say more to that later on...
     
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  32. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Ok, to your first question: The only thing I wouldn´t totally agree on is the description "two independent objects", since to me it seems very likely, that the facade section is being carried/pushed by the core column. So even though it´s two different objects, they move more like one object, at least that´s my assumption.

    To your second question: When I first noticed the facade section (which happened only after I started making my points here), your hypothesis came to my mind already. For a second or so. But the newly discovered facade section couldn´t change the fact, that there is this other object that to me clearly looks more like a core column rather than facade. All I had to do is look at the alleged core column again to reassure myself of my hypothesis.

    Let´s forget the facade section for a second.
    Let´s even forget my gash maker for a second.
    I don´t know if you paid any attention to the following gif yet - please do:

    [​IMG]

    So again: I splitted the screen into three areas.
    The left area would be the place to look for our facade section and for my gash maker - but forget about that area for now.
    Please focus on the center area and the area on the right.
    Do you see what I would call "bundles of core columns" there?
    Do you see what I mean when I say "there are longish objects that look much more like core columns than wall sections"?
    Maybe start with the area on the right, I think they´re the most obvious ones.

    Once you accepted the idea that some of these are core columns, your eyes are open for all the other I guess - including my gash maker.

    Then you should watch this gif again:

    [​IMG]

    ...looking for the object I highlighted green here:

    [​IMG]

    Orange would be the last object disappearing behind WTC7 in the gif loop, just for orientation.
    The green one is my gash making core column. To me, even this photo strongly suggests, that we are looking at a core column, rather than a wall section. But it becomes even more obvious in the video/gif I´d say.

    Anyways, this thread is not primarily about the WTC7 gash. So we don´t really need to agree on the gash maker.
    For this thread, more important to me seems to be the question: Do you see at least some of "my core columns"?
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2016
  33. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    Looking at your gif divided into 3 sections, it looks like the section on the right is façade peeling off.
     
  34. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    ^Well, not to me @JRBids ...


    --------


    Sorry, @qed I shouldn´t just go on with my shit without adressing your hypothesis adequately.

    Would you agree, that the facade section we both see is aligned like this:
    [​IMG]
    ...rather than its original vertical alignment?
     
  35. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

  36. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Very much so...
     
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  37. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    I am talking about the core columns that were already missing in this picture:

    [​IMG]
     
  38. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Yes. It has rotated to an orthogonal orientation.
     
  39. qed

    qed Senior Member

    I am pleased that it at least occurred to you as a possibility.
    [​IMG]
    • Do you agree that in my looping gif the red "things" rotate as one rigid object? (Angles and parallel lines between parts are maintained as the system rotates and moves.)
    [... I see that you do "The only thing I wouldn´t totally agree on is the description "two independent objects", since to me it seems very likely, that the facade section is being carried/pushed by the core column. So even though it´s two different objects, they move more like one object, at least that´s my assumption." ...]
    • Please will you explain the physics behind the pushing or carrying.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2016
  40. Zett eL

    Zett eL Member

    Here´s a simple visualization of my gash maker hypothesis:


    [​IMG]


    (Don´t pay too much attention to those breakings, they´re just an additional idea...)

    Of course at the same time the tower would be disintegrating from top to bottom. But any wall section still in place there would get pushed by the tilting core column. Now imagine not only one column doing that, but a bundle of columns. And don´t think of smooth columns, but ones that are shaped like those on the right hand side here:


    [​IMG]


    A wall section could easily get caught by such "teeth" - if this is even necessary to explain any "carrying". I think the lateral force of the tilting movement could be sufficient even with smooth columns.
     
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