1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here's another view on that. The elevation profile of a path from the approximate camera location to Fryingpan then then to Greybeard, the red arrow is at Fryingpan.
    20160920-170033-n2g68.

    Given the lack of an actual camera location, there's pretty much nothing to debunk here.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Note that the majority of the path is Buncombe county, which is the original form of "bunkum", and hence "bunk" and "debunk".
     
    • Funny Funny x 2
  3. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    Showing the path from that coordinate -> Pinnacle, and a path from another location close by that changes the angles and lines the mountains up.

    In these 2 gifs, the colors are:
    White = Big Bald, Green = Pinnacle, Red = Graybeard, Blue = Fryingpan

    [​IMG]

    Showing another possible observer location with the mountains lined up correctly:

    [​IMG]

    EDIT:

    The path without the marked coordinate is further north than the other.
    Top down view:
    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Active Member

    Perspective? Aren't we talking about parallax here?
     
  5. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    Yes.

    The perspective comment was towards him expecting Graybeard to be much lower in the picture, with no reference point or knowing the angle of the camera relative to the ground/his tangent. I misspoke
     
  6. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    At 16:12 he says that he was less than 1/2 mile from Tennent Mountain, not 1.2 miles.
     
  7. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    At 19:00 he gives more info about his position- about 3/4 - 1 mile, laterally, from "Graveyard Fields" and the GPS is shown for that location on the vid. He says he is to the left from the shown location.
     
  8. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Well, he says the camera was here:

    camera position.

    Which I deduced the GPS from by matching this position using the topo lines in Google Maps:

    camera position 2.

    Have we got a Google Earth zoom in of the view from that point? I wish I knew how to do that. But seriously don't have the time to learn at the moment.

    1.2 miles is my figure, taken from measuring to the above location.

    From Graveyard Fields to the above location - ie, where he said the camera was - is 1.75 miles.

    Possible camera location

    From tooling around with the line of sight from Tennent Mountain to Pinnacle and looking at similarly elevated points to where he said he was, I wonder if somewhere like 35.347038, -82.852877 is likely. It's only 600 feet or so from where he pointed to in his diagram.
     
  9. skephu

    skephu Senior Member

    Maybe we could invite the maker of the video to come here and discuss his findings directly with him. Better than youtube comments! He indicates in the video description that he is open to hear rebuttals/debunking.
     
  10. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Maybe.

    He also says:
    "I have ZERO tolerance for drama, insults, manipulation, passive aggressive attacks, lying or deception in any form. Comments possessing any of these attributes will be deleted. And as this is my video I am the arbiter of which comments qualify for deletion."

    When someone warns in advance, on Youtube, of all places, that they require total control of any
    discussion of what they've posted...well, I suspect that they aren't up for the true skepticism their
    work would get here or any open, rational forum where the discussion could not be entirely in their hands.
     
  11. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    The purple area is where he must have been for his 4 peak shot:
    (the line from it is the same line in the above .gifs.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    To reiterate the lineup of the 4 peaks...

    White = Big Bald, Green = Pinnacle, Red = Graybeard, Blue = Fryingpan

    [​IMG]

    Showing another possible observer location with the mountains lined up correctly:

    [​IMG]
     
  13. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    Here are the distances from Tennent and Graveyard to the location I mapped out as where he had to be in order to take that shot.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  14. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Stellar work.

    Do you know how to do the photo overlay thing that Mick does? Or how to get a zoomed in view of the 4 mountains, so that it matches the original photo?
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
  15. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    Yes but I havent done it yet, I will when I get home. The best I have so far is a .gif zoom following a straight line from the observer location, past Fryingpan and showing what height the line hits at the further 3 (post #40)
     
  16. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    Here is my photo overlay:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I drew another straight line from Pinnacle and THRU the camera (because it was listed at 20m height at that coordinate) to find the actual observer location. Here it is:

    [​IMG]

    This image has the coordinates for the Actual Observer Location:

    [​IMG]

    In Google Earth, the measurements are:

    Observer Coordinates:

    35*20'48.27" N
    82*51'13.37" W

    Elevations:

    Observer: 5481 ft

    Fryingpan: 5326 ft
    Graybeard: 5413 ft
    Pinnacle: 5667 ft
    Bald Knob: 5369 ft

    Distance from observer to mountain:

    Fryingpan: 5.5 mi
    Graybeard: 39.14 mi
    Pinnacle: 40.84 mi
    Bald Knob: 41.27 mi

    Distance from the reference points he noted, to observer:

    Tennent Mountain: 1.1 mi
    Graveyard Fields: 1.86 mi
     
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2016
    • Winner Winner x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    In other words, his location statements are "all over the map". :) I suspect that's where his error lies.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. skephu

    skephu Senior Member

    Here's a proportional representation of the actual situation, with 37 pixels representing 1 mile:
    upload_2016-9-22_11-3-51.

    The thick green line represents Earth's surface, the triangles are the mountains, I assumed them to be all 1 mile (5280 feet) high. I put Fryingpan and Graybeard 5 and 40 miles from the camera, respectively. The red line is the horizontal direction from the camera location, and the blue line is looking at the top of Graybeard when it is aligned with Fryingpan. The angle between the red and blue lines is ~0.4 degrees.
     
  19. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Yeah. Fryingpan is too close to his observation point. It exaggerates any small error in his altitude. Good work!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Great work, @Bass In Your Face - really well done.

    Yesterday I'd kind of reverse-engineered my triangles to try and work out the viewer height and came up with a prediction of about 5480 feet:

    photo.JPG

    Angle x I calculated to be 0.314 degrees (and x=y) therefore the side marked "?" - the drop below horizontal from the camera position to the summit of Graybeard - is 1132 feet. Adding this to the height of Graybeard above ground level at "camera" gives a viewer elevation of 5477 feet.

    I didn't post it though, as thought it best not to influence looking for something based on what it "should" be.

    Nice to see it was so close to where you ended up at. I also tried the same equation with the summit elevation you had posted and received a viewing angle of 0.295° and a predicted camera elevation of 5455 feet.

    It's just approximate but pretty good for some rough workings.

    I suppose the question now is - why does his altimeter show such a different elevation? Is it just not an accurate piece of kit? Or is something else going on?

    Love the diagram. Is it possible to post it with the actual summit elevations?
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
    • Like Like x 1
  21. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    What? Are you suggesting that he was lying? Something else going on, I think...
    http://gpsinformation.net/main/altitude.htm
    https://mountaineers.org/blog/how-to-pick-an-altimeter

    And in the same article:

    Screen Shot 2016-09-22 at 4.08.55 PM.

    In a nutshell: an altimeter being even 200 feet out is not particularly unusual or bothersome, according to those in the know.

    So I guess that settles it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. Bass In Your Face

    Bass In Your Face Active Member

    It's funny because in the video he claims he is like 98% sure (or whatever % he gives, I'm not sitting through any more of that video) that his elevation reading is within only 10 feet of it.
     
  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    His altimeter is just a $20 barometer altimiter.
    Source: https://www.amazon.com/DBPOWER-Multifunction-Altimeter-Barometer-Thermometer/dp/B00HUOPXCY/ref=sr_1_7?s=sports-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1474583722&sr=1-7

    Some bad reviews:
     
  24. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    I'd probably take that particular review with a grain of salt...
    guy seems kind of clueless...no mention of calibrating it.

    More troubling is the overall rating. As a guy who visits Amazon
    waaaaaay too often, I'm overly familiar with their system:
    Even though it's theoretically a "5 star" grading system, 0 stars
    is not an option, so grades are really from 1 to 5, pushing the mean
    higher than it should be. And Amazon customers tend to grade
    generously: for most items, a 4.0 rating (w/ say, 20 or more reviews)
    would actually be
    a warning flag. This cheap altimeter is just 3.5 stars, from 23 reviews.
    Also, reviews on Amazon often take price into account...
    so a random item that worked well 95% of the time
    might be 4.7 stars for a $20 version, but 3.2 stars for a $60 version,
    because purchasers of the latter had higher expectations for the higher
    price they paid.

    My point is that this crappy, no-name (literally!) altimeter
    probably only has a rating as high as (a still lousy) 3.5 stars
    because people graded it gently, since it cost so little.
     
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    People's phones are generally far more accurate nowadays. There's really no excuse for going to all this trouble and not at the very least borrowing an old iPhone or Android with GPS.
     
  26. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    The guy seems to have gone to a great amount of effort to do this. To have counted on such a cheap instrument doesn't make sense.
     
  27. skephu

    skephu Senior Member

    He has admitted on youtube that his test proves nothing because there is too much possibility for errors. He is now planning a new test that "takes every single point made by debunkers into account with meticulous accuracy".
     
  28. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Jolly good. All he really needs is:

    1) Accurate Lat & Long of camera
    2) Middle mountain in the actual middle
     
  29. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Actually a barometric altimeter can still be more accurate than a GPS one. The bad reviews above seem to be down to clueless operators. Barometric altimeters need to be regularly calibrated, either from the known sea-level pressure on the day, or (ideally) by setting the altitude from the map at known points.

    I have a Suunto watch with a barometer altimeter. It can measure the difference in height between upstairs and downstairs in my house. GPS can't do that.

    Edit: although having said that, newer iPhones have barometric pressure sensors too.
     
  30. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Even better than lat/long would be if he could ALSO stand on a recognizable spot, like a big rock.
     
  31. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    As far as I can tell he has deleted quite a few comments. He seems to have answered a lot of questions which don't seem to be there any more. Not sure how open he is to criticism.
     
  32. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    Yes, he deleted my comments too, even though they were super polite and mostly just questions. So not quite as open as the description makes it sound.

    Damn you Mick! Before checking this thread I thought I'd track down his altimeter and see how it rated. So I did that, and then came here only to find I'm waaaaaay late on that. ;)

    Anyway, the first one I found was on one of those Chinese websites that sells cheap tat wholesale, and then I saw one on eBay UK, which at least undercuts the Amazon one: $11.50 (at today's exchange rate) including free shipping from Hong Kong:

    Screen Shot 2016-09-23 at 7.09.21 AM.

    So if the good ones can be 200 feet out, what can we expect of this?

    Here's a still from the video, which shows it is indeed the same model:

    Screen Shot 2016-09-23 at 7.10.02 AM.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2017
  33. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Yeah, the passage I cited above (Post #50, I believe) is the sort of heads-up people give you that, no,
    they aren't sincerely looking for a productive exchange...they intend to be dictator of their little corner of YouTube.
     
  34. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    It's a shame he doesn't want to join the debate - assuming he would have looked at our analysis objectively - as he seemed like a pretty thorough and knowledgable believer.

    In any case, I've kept him informed from pretty much the start, so he knows this thread is here.

    But he seems to have actually moved on to a different and new experiment.

    Hopefully that'll be just as fun to analyse too. :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2016
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    @Ian Dalton has been trying to post Jon McIntye's response to this thread, but it's not working out as he's on his phone. Here's what Ian said:

    Basically just misunderstanding the point that it's his indicated viewpoint that's demonstrably wrong, and not the identification of the mountains.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  36. skephu

    skephu Senior Member

    Maybe he only read the OP, which is ambiguous.
     
  37. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, it needs a thread summary.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  38. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Or maybe he just read a couple early posts which questioned whether he was looking at the right peaks?

    PS: I see that point has been covered. He just seems to have been too reactionary to see that people were not "lying", but honestly trying to figure out what he did in his observations.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2016
  39. Rory

    Rory Senior Member

    To clarify: the video maker hasn't read the thread. He was responding to someone telling him that we had decided he was looking at the wrong mountains. This was my first guess, which was quickly shown to be wrong and retracted.

    In that sense, he's perfectly justified in defending his position. But, the thing is, he's defending something that he hasn't been accused of, so it's basically irrelevant.

    If he responds to the actual analysis, however, then that would be relevant.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  40. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Well that's just wrong. Who told him that, Ian Dalton?