Debunked: Triton Artificial Gills (Indigogo Campaign)

txt29 said:

There is not much I could tell you, so I better post it here that everyone knows. There was an automated email instantly after I clicked the button "Start a Campaign", before I even started filling in any data. That was a bit surprising. There was then another automated email when I filled in all the content, and hit the button putting the campaign live. No verification or human interaction. If I had the text ready, I could have started the campaign within 30 seconds.

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Understood. We are mainly interested in any new correspondence you receive assuming Indiegogo suspends your page. As you know, Saeed said that he specifically complained to Indiegogo about the "cloned" campaign, which led to it being suspended. We assume he is complaining bitterly about your campaign as well. If Indiegogo does suspend your "scam alert" it would potentially be legal evidence that they actively are "assisting" the fraudulent campaign and may be usable against them in a formal legal action. Thus, we are very interested in studying any correspondence or communications you receive in the future (if any).

vislaw said:

Understood. We are mainly interested in any new correspondence you receive assuming Indiegogo suspends your page.

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OK, I'll post about it when it happens. For the moment I am not sure whether Saeed is already aware of the scam alert campaign, but he'll probably learn it sooner or later anyway. It would be nice if people helped promoting it in social media, so that more people see it, before it is shut down.

txt29 said:

OK, I'll post about it when it happens. For the moment I am not sure whether Saeed is already aware of the scam alert campaign, but he'll probably learn it sooner or later anyway. It would be nice if people helped promoting it in social media, so that more people see it, before it is shut down.

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I am also aware that many people have written to Indiegogo complaining about the fraudulent campaign and the complete lack of plausibility/credibility for the claims made (as well as the outright provable misrepresentations). I have submitted a complaint myself, in fact, and can attest that you will receive a boilerplate response back from Indiegogo saying they will investigate your complaint and to please not contact them again on the matter.

There is something else quite simple that anyone can do to help this effort to stop the Triton scamsters. You see, the reason that crowdfunding companies like Indiegogo are so arrogant is their firm belief that they are immune to liability due to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (CDA). Basically this law protects sites and service providers by preventing them from being liable for slanderous statements, misrepresentations and fraud posted by third parties. Thus, they claim that they are simply providing the forum for entrepreneurs and contributors to use.

This legal claim of immunity disappears, however, when the crowdfunding entity behaves in an "active" versus a "passive" role in the fraud. We believe that Indiegogo has crossed this threshold into becoming an active participant by virtue of several facts:

1) Indiegogo was responsible for the infamous Triton "reboot" where almost a million dollars was refunded and Triton was permitted to restart its campaign with the ridiculous Liquid Oxygen claim. I recently read an article online in which the author reported receiving an e-mail from Indiegogo admitting that they worked with the Triton trio to accomplish the reboot. (by the way, I'm trying to find that same article as I didn't bookmark it. I would appreciate it if any of you here can point me to it).

2) Indiegogo acted as a an "imperfect policeman." By getting involved to the point of facilitating the "reboot" the company no longer can claim to be a passive bystander.

3) There are numerous provably fraudulent statements on the campaign site and in the comments. Indiegogo claims that it investigates complaints and we intend to take the position that it cannot turn a blind eye to clearly fraudulent content once it undertakes to conduct any type of review.

This is where you guys can help. PLEASE write your own letters of complaint to support@indiegogo.com and put in your own words why you believe this is a fraudulent campaign. You'll get an autoresponse and if you would kindly forward your original complaint and the Indiegogo autoresponse to us at stoptriton@outlook.com we will add it to our documentation of Indiegogo's astonishingly callous and arrogant stance.

Of course, we will also name Mr. Yeon and the two Khademi boys as parties as well. However, Indiegogo is in our back yard and has the assets and pockets to pay punitive damages, which are eligible to be recovered in a claim involving fraud and misrepresentation.

Take ten minutes and whip out an e-mail, please.

vislaw said:

by the way, I'm trying to find that same article as I didn't bookmark it. I would appreciate it if any of you here can point me to it

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You can find the email sent to the backers of the first campaign on the first page of this thread - post #40

EDIT: and yes, several of us have already sent complaints to IGG too - if you read the thread, you'll find numerous references. Complaints were sent for all of the campaigns - the first $900K, the second $360K, as well as at the Australian clone, too.

txt29 said:

You can find the email sent to the backers of the first campaign on the first page of this thread - post #40

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Yes, I'm aware of that post. The article I'm speaking of was written by one of the online tech sites such as DigitalTrends or GearJunkie or the like. The author specifically quotes a letter that he/she received from one of the Khademis as well as an e-mail that he/she received back from Indiegogo in which Indiegogo admitted that they orchestrated the reboot. If my memory is correct, the author paraphrased the letter and didn't actually quote it, but he/she clearly said that Indiegogo admitted involvement in the brouhaha. I want to find that article again so I can contact the author and hopefully get the actual letter sent by Indiegogo.

Of course, Indiegogo gives us "peons" nothing but form letters with boilerplate paragraphs. However, if you are a tech writer you apparently can get a real response from somebody at Indiegogo in San Francisco.

Thanks

EDIT: and thanks to you and everyone else who has issued a complaint. I truly believe that the weight of those complaints will become important in a subsequent formal lawsuit and I truly hope we can motivate more people to make complaints as well.

txt29 said:

I am not quite sure whether it is indeed so. When I commented on Triton's campaign, the comment disappeared from public view (although staying visible form myself as long as I stayed logged in) instantly after I cancelled the payment. Khademi would have to be watching closely and be very fast, but I can't exclude it, of course.

We can easily test it. Just someone go to my campaign at http://igg.me/at/triton-scam, purchase the 1€ perk, post a comment, and then withdraw the donation. We'll see whether the comment stays visible publicly or not. I tried doing it myself, but it does not let paying me with the same Paypal account, and I do not have another one.

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I don't even have to do that. Twice I contributed $1 to Triton, to post a comment. The first time, the money was refunded after about 3 hours from IGG, and the comment disappeared.... Well, it was still there if I was logged in to IGG, but on logging out, it vanished. Log back in, there it was.

So I contributed another $1, and posted a comment. The same thing happened, except the refund occurred in about 60 seconds, so I'm assuming Triton has my account flagged to automatically reject donations now.

I think it may have been the article on Arstechnica (see at the bottom of the page):

Update: Indiegogo has provided Ars with the following statement: “Indiegogo’s global community of backers asked for more specific details about how the product would work. Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety team encouraged the Campaign Owner to relaunch the campaign with the additional product requirements clearly stated, which they have done.”

vislaw said:

There is something else quite simple that anyone can do to help this effort to stop the Triton scamsters. You see, the reason that crowdfunding companies like Indiegogo are so arrogant is their firm belief that they are immune to liability due to Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (CDA). Basically this law protects sites and service providers by preventing them from being liable for slanderous statements, misrepresentations and fraud posted by third parties. Thus, they claim that they are simply providing the forum for entrepreneurs and contributors to use.

This legal claim of immunity disappears, however, when the crowdfunding entity behaves in an "active" versus a "passive" role in the fraud. We believe that Indiegogo has crossed this threshold into becoming an active participant by virtue of several facts:

1) Indiegogo was responsible for the infamous Triton "reboot" where almost a million dollars was refunded and Triton was permitted to restart its campaign with the ridiculous Liquid Oxygen claim. I recently read an article online in which the author reported receiving an e-mail from Indiegogo admitting that they worked with the Triton trio to accomplish the reboot. (by the way, I'm trying to find that same article as I didn't bookmark it. I would appreciate it if any of you here can point me to it).

2) Indiegogo acted as a an "imperfect policeman." By getting involved to the point of facilitating the "reboot" the company no longer can claim to be a passive bystander.

3) There are numerous provably fraudulent statements on the campaign site and in the comments. Indiegogo claims that it investigates complaints and we intend to take the position that it cannot turn a blind eye to clearly fraudulent content once it undertakes to conduct any type of review.

This is where you guys can help. PLEASE write your own letters of complaint to support@indiegogo.com and put in your own words why you believe this is a fraudulent campaign. You'll get an autoresponse and if you would kindly forward your original complaint and the Indiegogo autoresponse to us at stoptriton@outlook.com we will add it to our documentation of Indiegogo's astonishingly callous and arrogant stance.

Of course, we will also name Mr. Yeon and the two Khademi boys as parties as well. However, Indiegogo is in our back yard and has the assets and pockets to pay punitive damages, which are eligible to be recovered in a claim involving fraud and misrepresentation.

Take ten minutes and whip out an e-mail, please.

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You know, IGG did exactly the same thing with Skarp... Basically begging Skarp to come over to IGG after Kickstarter suspended the campaign there for "Lack of Prototype". And that only came about after so many people pointed out to KS that the concept was basically impossible, exactly along the lines of Triton. The IGG CEO also posed for a photo op with the "Leader" of the Skarp team. Of course, Skarp is going to ship in June of 2016, so that should be fine.

As far as I can see, Anything on IGG is a plain and simple money grab for the company and the scammers. They have absolutely zero credibility, but people are apparently stupid.

txt29 said:

I think it may have been the article on Arstechnica (see at the bottom of the page):

Update: Indiegogo has provided Ars with the following statement: “Indiegogo’s global community of backers asked for more specific details about how the product would work. Indiegogo’s Trust & Safety team encouraged the Campaign Owner to relaunch the campaign with the additional product requirements clearly stated, which they have done.”

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Many many thanks. That's it.

Those words may not sound like much, but they are extremely significant in the legal context involved here.

Go internet. Woot.

I complained before the 'reboot' and received the same boilerplate as everyone else (and nothing else). I didn't complain a second time after the reboot as I wasn't sure if it actually achieved anything, but now I will.

Is there any reason to believe that the people named and pictured as the creators of the campaign are the real names and images of the actual people involved? Obviously Mr. Yeon created the original render that went viral the first time, but is there any proof that he is still involved in the 'actual scam' phase of asking for money? (If one were inclined to attempt to defraud hundreds/thousands of people surely you wouldn't use your real name..?)

huwp said:

I complained before the 'reboot' and received the same boilerplate as everyone else (and nothing else). I didn't complain a second time after the reboot as I wasn't sure if it actually achieved anything, but now I will.

Is there any reason to believe that the people named and pictured as the creators of the campaign are the real names and images of the actual people involved? Obviously Mr. Yeon created the original render that went viral the first time, but is there any proof that he is still involved in the 'actual scam' phase of asking for money? (If one were inclined to attempt to defraud hundreds/thousands of people surely you wouldn't use your real name..?)

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An interesting question. My guess is that it would be more unlikely for them to use the same last Arab name (Khademi) for John and Saeed and, in fact, there's a John Khademi with this info on Linked In residing in Stockholm. The "Media school" sounds like a possible hit. ... Anybody know someone in Stockholm?

Here's the listing:

John Khademi
Key Account Manager at Pitney Bowes Svenska AB

Stockholm, Sweden
Printing
Previous

1. Daylight Group,
2. International Bunkering Middle East,
3. Smith and Ken Real Estate

Education

1. Media school Stockholm

And here's Saeed's Linked In profile which admits his involvement:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/saeed-khademi-1545a136

CEO
YEKA Innotech
January 2014 – Present (2 years 4 months)Stockholm, Sweden
Triton. A state-of-the-art oxygen respirator, that allows you to breathe underwater up to 45 minutes and at a maximum depth of 15ft by utilizing our ‘artificial gills’ technology & liquid oxygen technology.


Tritongills


Key Account Manager
Pitney Bowes
August 2012 – January 2013 (6 months)Stockholm, Sverige
Marketing/Sales Manager
Economy Dubai
June 2009 – April 2012 (2 years 11 months)
Created new sales techniques by analyzing past performances. Focused on selling solutions to fit customers' unique
technological needs; adapted sales tactics and presentations to match individual sales cycle, chain of command, decision-
making process and need for relationship building. Managed a team of 7 sales associates, to motivate and teach sales
techniques and solutions.

Key Achievements:
Grew existing customer base by an average of 20 new accounts a month through fundamental sales practices,
telemarketing, and networking.
Created new partnerships by attending events and initiating new contacts.
Recruited, developed and motivated 7 member sales team and opened new territories.
Introduced sales contest to increase performance.
Negotiated high worth contracts which introduced new business developments.

Sales Executive
STM Service AB
October 2004 – June 2009 (4 years 9 months)
Closed sales deals with private clients and B2B. Visited clients and presented the material to client's top management.
Worked together with Sales Manager to create new sales leads for the entire team.

Key Achievements:
Initiated new marketing strategies and exceeded sales quotas.
Selected to mentor other members of the sales team, providing guidance and sales coaching.

Team Leader
Aphone AB
February 2003 – October 2004 (1 year 9 months)
Managed 10 vendors by selling mobile phones, switchboard services, and IT solutions. Assisted the team to understand
"buy signals" and initiated a training session for this purpose. Developed customer needs assessment to improve customer
satisfaction.
Key Achievements:
Transformed marketing strategies into tactical market plans to land lucrative contracts.
Awarded best Team Leader for three consecutive months based on total sales revenue generated and most effective
motivational leader.
Research and introduced new target markets which increased sales.
SAEED KHADEMI
Index Tower, Dubai
Date of Birth

Marketing/Sales Associate
Products- Stockholm
September 2001 – February 2003 (1 year 6 months)
Produced advertising templates for marketing strategy purposes and involved in sales of office materials. Created new sales
techniques by grasping more experienced sales associate's tactics.

huwp said:

Is there any reason to believe that the people named and pictured as the creators of the campaign are the real names and images of the actual people involved? Obviously Mr. Yeon created the original render that went viral the first time, but is there any proof that he is still involved in the 'actual scam' phase of asking for money? (If one were inclined to attempt to defraud hundreds/thousands of people surely you wouldn't use your real name..?)

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Well, if his Facebook account was not impersonated, then Mr. Yeon promotes the campaign now there, too: https://www.facebook.com/jeabyun.yeon


EDIT: Same for Saeed Khademi: https://www.facebook.com/saeed.khademi.18

John Khademi does not seem to have an account under his name, but Internet search shows his address identical to Saeed's

Here's the deal. Until now the sad state of crowdfunding has given people like this complete confidence that all they have to do is run the clock out. When they get the money they have NO restrictions on how they spend it and they can claim in perpetuity that they are "working" on the product. Are you aware of the KREYOS watch campaign on Indiegogo? Steve Tan raised $1,502,533 claiming he would make an extraordinary watch. Go read the comments for some real heartbreak. The few watches that were released were shoddy and defective. But as soon as Indiegogo sent him the money Steve Tan posted pics of himself with his new Ferrari and sitting in the midst of a sh*tpotful of designer shopping bags: http://observer.com/2014/08/indiego...test-crowdfunded-smartwatch-is-total-garbage/

I'm sure this has inspired Messrs Yeon, Khademi & Khademi. They think they're off the hook as soon as they get the money and, no doubt, they'll spend it quickly.

This is why we are going to do everything we possibly can to hold Indiegogo accountable. This is the only way we can get control of this kind of abuse (until the government sweeps in and screws up crowdfunding for the legitimate entrepreneurs).

Triton gills, besides the FB pages of Khademi and Yeon, they have also a corporate Facebook page at https://www.facebook.com/tritongills/
I just attempted reporting it as scam, but was not asked for any comment or evidence, so I guess FB won't care much unless there is a bigger number of users flagging the page as scam. If you want to help having them shut down at least on FB, please report them too.

In contrary, at YouTube, their videos can be flagged as spam or missleding » scam/fraud, and a comment with evidence can be attached. So if you want to report them there too, the videos of Mr. Khademi are listed here: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCjrZvI8rooETAx2NkF1JfdA/videos

vislaw said:

Anybody know someone in Stockholm? [...]

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I live in Stockholm.

And speaking of Sweden, one more place that can be contacted regarding the Triton scam is the Swedish Consumer Agency - Konsumentverket. If you feel like writing them an email, instructions on how to do so are here: http://www.konsumentverket.se/Other-languages/English-Engelska/This-is-how-you-file-a-complaint/

txt29 said:

Well, if his Facebook account was not impersonated, then Mr. Yeon promotes the campaign now there, too: https://www.facebook.com/jeabyun.yeon


EDIT: Same for Saeed Khademi: https://www.facebook.com/saeed.khademi.18

John Khademi does not seem to have an account under his name, but Internet search shows his address identical to Saeed's

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Yes--about that...

I've been trying to force communication with the Triton people in venues where they can't control what stays in public, and hit on attempting with Jeabyun Yeon:

..thinking that he has been curiously absent from all the discussions concerning this device.

This seemed odd to me, since it was his entry in a design competition in 2014 that apparently started all this (along with a bunch of media outlets who never realized that non-functional mock-ups are used in these sorts of things and reported it as real). If ever there would be a weak link in the scam chain, he would have to be it was my reasoning. Note that my post(s) above have gotten no response at all, an even greater oddity on Facebook.

Taking things a bit further, the last post on Facebook that appears to be made by him was November of last year:

All the posts made after were of the 'shared' from elsewhere variety.

This makes me wonder if Jeabyun Yeon is even on Facebook any more, and the page is being administered by someone else entirely.

John Lewis said:

Taking things a bit further, the last post on Facebook that appears to be made by him was November of last year ... All the posts made after were of the 'shared' from elsewhere variety.

This makes me wonder if Jeabyun Yeon is even on Facebook any more, and the page is being administered by someone else entirely.

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Not quite. There is also the post from March 20 below, in Korean (with an automated translation). That fact alone makes it even more credible that it is authentic, and not hijacked by Khademi. And there may be more posts that are visible to 'friends' only.

Good catch. Not being a Korean speaker/reader, I probably skimmed right past that without even noticing.

Another update by Triton at IGG:

We have finally the pricing for the liquid oxygen canisters.
The price will be $17.99 per unit.

We are working with the refill canisters and we will have them ready before the launch, we will also present them here on Indiegogo.

There will be a full list of our partners and distributors where you can you purchase your canister, the canisters will be filled when you make an order so they will have a longer shelf life.

Thank you for a amazing support, and also thank you for the countless of nice emails you are sending us, we can't thank you enough for this great support.

Have a great day everyone.

Best regards
Saeed, Jeabyun, JOhn

txt29 said:

Another update by Triton at IGG:

We have finally the pricing for the liquid oxygen canisters.
The price will be $17.99 per unit.

We are working with the refill canisters and we will have them ready before the launch, we will also present them here on Indiegogo.

There will be a full list of our partners and distributors where you can you purchase your canister, the canisters will be filled when you make an order so they will have a longer shelf life.

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Well, there's only 18 days (as I write this) until end of campaign and they get the money from it from IGG. Looks like they're trying to find ways to ride it out until then by putting this online to keep the unsure from asking for refunds until it's too late.

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You know that horrible things are about to happen, but you just can't look away. The only hope for the backers I see now is if IGG is stringing along these people with the intent of denying the money at the last moment for some reason.

BTW, you can watch their funding progress at https://www.backerkit.com/projects/triton-world-s-first-artificial-gills-re-breather It includes the initial reimbursement of $900K from the first campaign. There are 18 days remaining in the campaign. If the funding continues with the current trend, they'd raise between ~$400-$760K at the end of the campaign. If they opted for the InDemand Funding option, they'll be able to collect money even after the end of the campaign.

txt29 said:

There are 18 days remaining in the campaign. If the funding continues with the current trend, they'd raise between ~$400-$760K at the end of the campaign. If they opted for the InDemand Funding option, they'll be able to collect money even after the end of the campaign.

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Only one thing to say to that.

I would love if someone asked them for a photo of the canisters, for their inner and outer dimensions, and for the volume of LOX they are supposed to hold. I know very well what the dimensions and volume would have to be, but it would be enormous fun hearing some numbers from them. Unfortunately, I cannot contribute and place any comments, since I was already banned twice.

John Lewis said:

It's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. You know that horrible things are about to happen, but you just can't look away. The only hope for the backers I see now is if IGG is stringing along these people with the intent of denying the money at the last moment for some reason.

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eh. Look on the bright side, there will be legal repercussions for the Triton staff if they are lying. And as far as 'backers', ..live and learn. better they get ripped off 300$ because they dont know "if it sounds too good to be true...", then fall for some other scam (like perpetual energy) that will cost them thousands.

Well, there are 51 backers who spent $1100 on the most expensive perk. Actually many of the backers purchased several perks. I know, you tell it is their own stupidity, and I have to agree. But once your parents start getting senile with the age, and being attacked by similar crooks on a daily basis, perhaps you'll change your opinion on the necessity to protect the "idiots" from such criminals (and from themselves).

In the meantime, there are finally some persistent questions posed to Triton on their IGG campaign page:

Brian Schultze - 1 minute ago
Some questions on my mind:
-How big are the canisters? (both in size and volume of oxygen).
-What approximate % of the oxygen is supplied via the gills vs. the canisters?
-What is the usable shelf life of a cannister?
-I’m assuming that your partner/distributors are filling these canisters so they are “fresh”?
-Can we get a few of the names of your partners?
-Is the heater for the liquid oxygen built into the main device or the canisters themselves?

Chris Mottes - 4 minutes ago
I have to say that one of the biggest deal-breakers for me is whether or not I can travel with the gear, incl. O2 canisters. If not, what is the point?
Also, am I the only one who does not understand how many cannisters are included with the original pledge?

Barry Brown - 6 minutes ago
What are the dimensions of your liquid oxygen canisters and how much volume do they hold?
Are you willing to provide proof to Indiegogo that you have actually filed for patents?
Thank you

deirdre said:

eh. Look on the bright side, there will be legal repercussions for the Triton staff if they are lying. And as far as 'backers', ..live and learn. better they get ripped off 300$ because they dont know "if it sounds too good to be true...", then fall for some other scam (like perpetual energy) that will cost them thousands.

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If Indiegogo releases the funds to the three Triton boys they will almost certainly spend it and/or hide it. It would be problematical to effectively pursue them in Sweden given geographic considerations and their apparent lack of assets/resources. That is why we believe our best hope is to hold Indiegogo accountable when this whole chimera collapses. The Triton guys are like Skinny Pete, Badger & Combo while Indiegogo is Gus Fring / Madrigal Electromotive GmbH (apologies to Breaking Bad).

ROTFL - 3 months of shelf life for LOX in a miniature Dewar - that's worth of a Nobel Prize alone:

漢榮 馮 - 2 hours ago
So what is the shelf life of the canisters?

Saeed Khademi - Campaigner - 8 minutes ago
The shelf life is 3 months,​

OK, we won't know the dimensions of the miraculous mini-Dewars with 3 months shelf life:

Saeed Khademi - Campaigner - 3 minutes ago
Brian, you donate $1 and you are asking me questions like who is your partners? why do you think we will give you that kind of information, we are releasing information when the time is right for it, and you ask me in details on how Triton works more or less, yes we have a trust issue due to many people trying to copy Triton by asking to many detailed questions. That is exactly what you have been doing since what 2 weeks now, Have a great day Brian

Similar answer to Barry Brown as well.

deirdre said:

eh. Look on the bright side, there will be legal repercussions for the Triton staff if they are lying. And as far as 'backers', ..live and learn. better they get ripped off 300$ because they dont know "if it sounds too good to be true...", then fall for some other scam (like perpetual energy) that will cost them thousands.

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From where would any legal repercussions come? The campaign (/crowdfunding in general) is set up so that the backers are 'contributing to a cause', NOT 'purchasing an item'. There is no legal contract that anything will be actually delivered, so when nothing IS delivered, no contract has been broken.

The backers are a disparate group of people spread across many countries. How would they organise any class action, and under what countries laws might it be pursued? Most backers don't live in the team members home countries to go after the campaign originators there (assuming they actually live where they claim), would non-residents claims have any weight in that case? Would it seem worthwhile for the backers to attempt given that their costs would be many multiples larger than the stake they could stand to recover in the best case?

So it would need to be some official organisation such as a consumer protection department that could take action, but which one? If the backers are in countries A,B,C, indiegogo is in country D and the originators are in countries E and F, which of those countries might feel required to act?

The best legal option would probably be against Indiegogo themselves, but their terms and conditions clearly state that Indiegogo take no responsibility for the outcome of the campaign, they simply provide a platform to facilitate the transfer of money - and there is no legal contract for anything to be delivered in any case. From Indiegogo's legal standpoint, the less they become involved the better, hence vislaw's comments above about acting as an imperfect policeman, which might provide enough to prove they have assumed responsibility by taking action.

IANAL, but I pretty much think that if an Indiegogo campaign gets to the end of the 30 day period with any backers money remaining in the campaign then the originators are away and clear.

So, the ideal Indiegogo scam, if anyone was inclined to run one, would be for something that lots of people think would be cool - such as a laser powered razor, (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving#/) or a self-refilling water bottle (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fontus-the-self-filling-water-bottles#/) or a tiny breathing device for underwater like you've seen in the movies (no campaign link provided); that seems superficially plausible (lasers cut things, right? there is moisture in the air, right? Fish breathe water, right?); where the 'pledge' can be set for an amount that is large enough that they don't need to attract thousands and thousands of backers, but small enough that people are not scared off (say, a few hundred dollars); and where proving that the claimed functionality is a complete fantasy requires a bit of technical knowledge and some maths - which you can counter with some smoke screening, PR, spin, smooth promises and tightly controlling the content of your social media platforms, to keep enough people convinced for 30 days 'til you can take the money and run.

huwp said:

From where would any legal repercussions come?

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fraud. You can't outright lie to investors.

deirdre said:

fraud. You can't outright lie to investors.

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Well, I think that is what some/many of the backers are assuming as well, that they have some protection against being blatantly lied to and some recourse they can take if/when they don't receive their 'reward' for their contribution. But I really don't think that there is - 'fraud' would require that laws have been broken, and if there is never a legal contract to deliver anything what laws are broken when nothing is?

I mean, the terms and conditions of the Indiegogo 'flexible funding' option even state that the campaign sponsors will receive any money pledged even if they don't raise enough funds to be able to hit the target they themselves have stated they need to hit in order to make the project viable!

From Indiegogo's help centre:

When are contributions not eligible for a refund?

Contributions cannot be refunded by Indiegogo, if any of the following are true:

• The contribution funds have already been transferred to the campaign owner
• The campaign has ended
• The perk associated with the contribution has been fulfilled
• Indiegogo determines that there has been an abuse of our Terms of Use, or the refund policy.

https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526876-Refunds-Can-I-get-my-money-back-

Note it says if ANY of the following are true, not if ALL are true, and always says 'contribution' not 'purchase'.

Edit: by they way, I'm not saying that they won't destroy their reputations, or that they don't deserve a tidal wave of negative publicity - just that once contributed the money is legally theirs irrespective of any actual delivery.

huwp said:

mean, the terms and conditions of the Indiegogo 'flexible funding' option even state that the campaign sponsors will receive any money pledged even if they don't raise enough funds to be able to hit the target they themselves have stated they need to hit in order to make the project viable!

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They arent asking for investments to "experiment" with some ideas, they are blatently telling people they HAVE this technology and it works as stated. so that is fraud. although i do agree that by the time investors get lawsuit up and running the money will probably be spent and you can't get blood from a stone. But still, fraud is criminal not civil.

50k is nothing to bother with but a million bucks? That's big fraud. Anyway the only reason there's a possibility that they will have to pay the piper in some way is because there are alot of tech people keeping an eye on this, with mains tream publicity... unlike say, the lasar razor.

Plus i think i saw a big scuba site called Titan? There are trademark things bout making a company in the same field that sounds awfully similar etc etc.

vislaw said:

(...) It would be problematical to effectively pursue them in Sweden .

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Tell that to Gottfried "anakata" Svartholm and friends, Swedish citizens who were jailed for breaking US laws while being in Sweden. But that probably only only works if you are sued by the entire movie industry with a million dollars worth of lawyers :]

But I still think getting Indiegogo is more difficult than getting Triton. Indiegogo has clearly written terms of service making them not liable for anything. The only attack vector I see for indiegogo is referring to the section in their terms of use, where they say this:

(Campaign) owners will respond promptly and truthfully to all questions posed to them by Indiegogo or any Contributor.

I see this as a guarantee, that all campaigns on their site are truthful and transparent, or else they get kicked out. If they did not kick out a campaign that clearly broke this rule by DELETING ALL uncomfortable questions, than Indiegogo broke this guarantee to me, the backer. And to make sure they can't protect themselves with "we did't notice", we have a bot, and I've already sent my complaint to indiegogo about the comments being deleted and this rule being broken.


Triton on the other hand committed serious crime - faking a demonstration video for monetary gain. The rules of crowdfunding allow campaigns to say "we tried hard but it just did not work out, thanks for the donations" but those rules will NOT protect them from this. This was deliberate misinformation. All we need is a backer, at lest from the European Union and preferably from Sweden to start a case agains them, and fortunately there are organisations like the Government Consumer Agencies that help with that, so they don't even need to do the scary lawyer stuff alone.

Well, I'm no lawyer, so I hope you are right.

With the greatest empathy for the people who are going to lose their money, if this does go the distance it will be interesting to see how it plays out. Obviously nothing until at least December, since that is the earliest delivery date promised. Then what?

Having made such bold and clear claims about what the thing will do, they can't go down the tried-and-trusted route of delivering something that just-about works even if it falls far short of the hype (See: Ampy http://drop-kicker.com/2016/01/ampy-move-teardown-and-review/#more-1864). I mean, they could convert the design into a fancy double-barrel snorkel or something but nobody is going to even half-believe that they were just overambitious and overoptimistic when they show a video of someone with bubbles coming out of their mouth clearly beneath the surface for 12 minutes and claim it as a demonstration of a working prototype then deliver a snorkel.

Announcements of delays? Only a stalling tactic. Claims that they have burnt through all the money trying and failing to establish their 'dealer network' of liquid oxygen retailers, and so have to cancel the project? Claims that insurmountable restrictions around shipping their liquid oxygen mean that they can't go ahead? (Maybe the IGG comments section's focus on questions around practicality is giving them an escape route here?) Claims that it was all a social media art project all along? ...Silence?

A perfect comment at IGG, that summarizes it all nicely. I wonder how long it will stay there:

Francesco Santini . 6 minutes ago
So did I get this right? You have a membrane, which you invented, that can filter O2 out of the water, and works using a microcompressor that you invented, powered by a battery technology that you invented, together with liquid O2 which stays in a miniaturized dewar canister with a shelf life of 3 months that you also invented. Guys, you have like 4 nobel-prize-class inventions here, why waste your time on a stupid gadget that allows you to dive 15ft? Elon Musk is nothing, the future is yours!

In the meantime, my IGG campaign at http://igg.me/at/triton-scam was still not shut down. Till now it had over 2,000 visitors (and even 6 backers for the Full Fun perk at €1). I see there were 19 visits referred from the account of Saeed Khademi, but I do not know whether it was himself who posted the link somewhere, or how exactly it happened. Anyway, I still did not receive any email from IGG complaining about the campaign, so perhaps it will stay online a few days more.

huwp said:

So, the ideal Indiegogo scam, if anyone was inclined to run one, would be for something that lots of people think would be cool - such as a laser powered razor, (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/the-skarp-laser-razor-21st-century-shaving#/) or a self-refilling water bottle (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/fontus-the-self-filling-water-bottles#/)

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I am baffled. $200K+ for each one for these science fiction ideas!!!!

I lost a lot of my faith in the humanity today. I am no scientist (like they love to say), but I can see several flaws in those concepts alone, not to mention the physics behind that.

[OT content removed. Let's not drift too far OT guys!]

And people pay for it, without even blinking ... no wonder there are people buying bridges or lots of land at the moon ...

I'm sad.

Now this is weird. Unless I am mistaken, the images and names of the Triton three have been removed from the web site at http://www.tritongills.com/#triton .

Can anyone verify that this is the case?

John Lewis said:

Now this is weird. Unless I am mistaken, the images and names of the Triton three have been removed from the web site at http://www.tritongills.com/#triton .

Can anyone verify that this is the case?

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Indeed, they are gone.