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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member


    Debunked Angle Cut Column 2.

    This image is famous in 9/11 conspiracy culture:

    hdanglecutlarge.

    The column in the center of the photo (by Sam Hollenshead) has been cut at an angle, presumably during the cleanup process. Yet Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911) still insist it was cut before the building fell, and looks nothing like a normal cut, and hence is evidence of thermite. Here's an AE911 slide they used just a few weeks ago:

    upload_2018-1-27_13-52-44.

    Here's Richard Gage, head of AE911, discussing this:

    Source: https://youtu.be/cjzZ7Yot_5s?t=1m11s

    However other photos of the scene show the exact same column, so we can figure out where it is, and when it was cut.
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 22-34-42.

    This photo actually shows the next column as it falls to the ground. The angle cut column is visible on the left.
    AP01102903369.

    Image Source: http://www.apimages.com/metadata/In...United-/76b06dee64e5da11af9f0014c2589dfb/54/0
    Date: Oct 29, 2001.

    The position of the column is right at the bottom of the pile of debris that formed when WTC1 collapsed. It took weeks to dig it out.
    Metabunk 2018-01-31 22-39-20.


    The column was still there earlier that day, with no cut.
    AP01102903234.
    Image Source: http://www.apimages.com/metadata/In...-United-/e0279fc464e5da11af9f0014c2589dfb/1/0

    Drag the slider to see the two photos in context:
    Metabunk 2018-02-01 00-03-58. Metabunk 2018-02-01 00-04-26.


    It appears in other images from after Oct 29th, which show it in the same position.
    [​IMG]

    Hence the column was cut several weeks after the collapse. People have been claiming something as evidence for over a decade. But they were wrong. Again.


    [Update] Some people have reported difficulty seeing the match of the Hollenshead image with the AP image. Here's a guide to the matching features between the two.
    Metabunk 2018-02-08 08-14-22.

    And in a wider context we can see other columns and pieces of debris that line up in both images

    Metabunk 2018-02-08 08-21-27.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The above is a summary of the thread discussion. The original question that started this follows, and the thread contains more information reinforcing the location and timing.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
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  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Has the location of this column ever been identified? It's such a core part of 9/11 mythology that a conclusive demonstration of the fact that it was cut later would go a long way to shifting the balance for those near the fence.

    I suspect it's part of the core of WTC1, the North Tower. Around 100 feet of the core was still standing


    FEMAphoto_WTC - 295 Core remaining North Tower.

    FEMAphoto_WTC - 380.

    FEMAphoto_WTC - 386.

    However I'm not sure. Some clues:

    The building columns in the background. Here's a contrast enhanced version:
    hdanglecutlarge-contrast.
    Metabunk 2018-01-27 14-15-08.

    The fact that it's a section of the core. Those appear to be core columns, viewed from a shallow angle from quite a distance. Here's something similar:
    crane and ground zero Oct 21 2001 AP William C. Lopez.
    (Photo source: http://archive.boston.com/bigpicture/2011/09/ground_zero_september_11_2001.html )

    Notice the slag marks and partial cuts on the columns in the above photo.


    Found a higher resolution image with TinEye, although it's cropped a bit

    [​IMG]

    You can see something that were less apparent in the other image, like the right angle marks on the top of the side of the two columns on the right, showing are just the "snapped off" core columns.
    Metabunk 2018-01-27 16-26-18.

    You can actually see the join line on the short side of the angle cut column lining up with the tops of the other two.
    Metabunk 2018-01-27 16-30-52.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2018
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Something to keep in mind is that the cut is only around 30°, and some will not look as steep from other angles.

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And on a bit of a side note, I no longer think it must have been done with a thermal lance. Regular oxy cutting can also produce similar slag, especially if done in a fiddly situation.
     
  5. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Do you know the date of the photo? I can't find it on any press or newswire sites. Finding the original source would be a great first step as then it would be easier to search photos around that date.
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    No, and that's partly what I'm trying to determine, as Gage is claiming it's during rescue efforts, so too early for any beams to be cut. He does not seem to realize that firefighters were involved in recovery efforts for months after the collapse. Here, for example:

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH8MIVuLz1g


    And just now, randomly clicking through that video I found (at 21:43) some angle cut columns.
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 06-45-02.
     
  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    It's hard to tell from such a close crop how much, if any, of the pile has been cleared away. There is still smoke rising, but that doesn't mean much because the fires were still burning more than three months after 9/11:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/dec/20/september11.usa

    See also the part I have bolded at the end. Firefighters were there daily for months.
     
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    This image appears to have been scanned from a newspaper or magazine. There are screening dots visible (easiest to see eg in the area of smoke to the right of the man in the centre). Working out where it was published would be a good start.
     
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    But also beams were clearly being cut even during the "rescue" phase of the operation. There's a good album on Flickr of photos from the days immediately after 9/11 by Andrea Booher: https://www.flickr.com/photos/32610356@N02/albums/72157609574082001/with/3046778693/

    This one was taken on September 18 or 19 (both dates are listed), and shows a beam being cut by firemen wearing very similar gear to those in the OP photo.

    https://flic.kr/p/5DiKAu

    upload_2018-1-28_15-56-57.

    And one from September 20 showing what appears to be the same type of cutting device. The caption calls it a "blowtorch", I'm not sure what the correct term would be.

    upload_2018-1-28_16-4-50.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's an Oxy–Acetylene Torch. Note the red and green hoses in the first image. Red is acetylene, green is oxygen.
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 08-16-28.
    In the second image he's just lit the torch with a flint striker. This is done without extra oxygen, so you get the larger irregular flame.

    These torches can be used for welding or cutting. When cutting a different tip is used that has a high pressure jet of oxygen controlled by the level on the handle.
     
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  11. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Earliest picture I have found of cutting going on, dated September 13 2001.

    upload_2018-1-28_16-59-32.

    I have a feeling the OP picture might be one of those taken by Andrea Booher (she was one of two FEMA photographers with full access to Ground Zero in the immediate aftermath), but the image search on the FEMA site is fairly terrible, and won't seem to continue past the 10th page of results:

    https://www.fema.gov/media-library/...":"1391+|+DR+|+New+York+|+Terrorist+Attack"}}
     
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  12. I think I found the photographer of the "beams-cut-at-an-angle" shot; from a blog-post from 2008:

    source: http://911blogger.com/news/2008-06-08/who-took-photo-when#comment-189102

    they refering to this site, which doesnt exist anymore, but archive.org got it (without photos):

    https://web.archive.org/web/20080828183650/http://www.lraphotography.com/essays/sep11/essay_wtc.php

    description reads:
    and on Sam Hollensheads personal site it states:

    source: https://www.samhollenshead.com/contact/
     
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  13. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Good info. That led me to this forum discussion: https://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x175209

     
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  14. there you go; that was a decade ago, I wonder how often he had to confirm this since then. and now propably again.
     
  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

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  16. That would have been the last place I would have searched...
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  17. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Most of the photos taken of the initial ground zero recovery were taken by one man--Joel Meyerowitz--starting on September 23, 2001 when he was granted access to be a photographer of record. Meyerowitz has published a number of the photos a stories from that time in a book, and all of his 5000 photos are now owned by the Museum of the City of New York, though I haven't found a place online where they are all accessible. I did find a presentation Meyerowitz gave to the New York Public Library about how he gained access to the site and, more importantly, what he saw and photographed there. A higher quality version of the NYPL presentation is preserved at C-SPAN.

    One interesting note he makes about the ironworkers who disassembled the remains of the buildings, is that many of them had worked on erecting the buildings 35 years prior (at 28:15 in the above linked video).

    Another point he makes (at 45:03 in the above linked video) is to say that, to him, the most emblematic scene of the recovery was that of men and women raking through debris meticulously, either standing or on their hands and knees, and pouring it through screens, all in search of evidence of missing persons.

    Meyerowitz's book is only available in hardcopy form so it's difficult to find digital copies of the photos from it. As far as I can tell, his full archive hasn't been digitized and made available yet either.

    (By the way, some additional evidence that the WTC 1 core columns were not cut by thermite or attacked by explosive charges: a number of people survived the collapse of the building from inside stairwell b of WTC 1. The History Channel actually put together a documentary on them, which can be found on youtube in various places including here.)
     
  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here's a photo of the WTC1 core, some time into the cleanup. Notice all the cut/snapped columns
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 10-01-55.

    There's one center bottom that's possible angle cut with similar slag coloration.
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 10-04-40.
     
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Potential location?
    [​IMG]

    Metabunk 2018-01-28 10-11-45.
     
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  20. the rest also seems like a match. I'm quite impressed.
     
  21. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    This, I think, shows the same location Metabunk 2018-01-28 10-43-56.
    Getty image dated Oct 17, 2001

    Looking north from behind the south bridge
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 10-44-44.

    So it's looking at the WTC1 pile, with WTC6 in the background. I think.

    So if you can see WTC6 in the Hollenshead angle cut pic, then that means it was taken after the north wall remains of the north tower were removed.
    [​IMG]
     
  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Actually it seems like PART of the north wall has been removed, and this is quite a bit lower down
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 11-12-35.
     
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  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Which I think means that at the time Gage claims the photo was taken it was actually buried about 100 foot deep in the pile of WTC1's core.

    Round about this level, or deeper
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 11-52-59.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  25. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    And as we know who took the photo, surely it must be possible to find out the date it was taken. That image must have been circulated widely at the time. Might be worth a search of newspapers around October 2001, if contacting the photographer doesn't work.
     
  26. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
  27. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    If they were WTC1 columns, that could well be the case as survivors from stairwell b had to climb out of the rubble at near the 6th floor level, indicating that the rubble pile there was quite substantial immediately after the collapse.
     
  28. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    There's also a documentary about the ground zero iron workers that seems likely to contain additional video and photographic records of their work on site, which may shed further light on the cuts in question, but it's only available on DVD, so far as I can tell.
     
  29. Oystein

    Oystein Active Member

    Great collaborative work, y'all!
     
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  30. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And only for $100.

    There’s also a variety of FOIA videos on YT “working at ground zero””.
     
  31. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Banned Banned

    The columns extended 7 stories below the plaza level to the bottom of the bath rub where the foundations were. The debris from the collapse I believe filled much of those 7 floors which voids. The core columns from the foundations up to 10 stores or more where made from 5 and 6" thick plate up to the 22nd floor. These monsters were 3 stories tall... OAL dimensions at the bottom were 22"x52"

    http://femr2.ucoz.com/photo/core_data/10

    There were some that were smaller in the center of the core as there function was mostly to define the elevator cores and support the corridors and smaller floor spaces inside the core.

    Up at the top the cross sections were way smaller by comparison... with the facade having 1/4" plate walls
     
  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  33. Jeffrey Orling

    Jeffrey Orling Banned Banned

    Looks to me that this machine is below the plaza level, but it hard to tell.
     
  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Plan of the first floor of the North Tower (WTC1). Note the core columns are oriented with the long side running north/south
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 16-07-06.

    From this we can identify the columns in the background
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 16-21-08.
     
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  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    At, or slightly below.
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 16-26-45.
     
  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The version that's on Hollenshead's site actually has a bit more detail of the background columns, going up a bit higher.
    2015-Sam-WTC-02-Cropped-enhanced.
    Which I think gives a 99.9% on the identification of those columns:
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 16-44-53.


    Metabunk 2018-01-28 16-45-49.
     
  37. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Based on the above, this guy is standing at street level. This makes sense with the photographer also being about at street level.
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 16-52-57.
     
  38. benthamitemetric

    benthamitemetric Active Member

    Just to confirm that it was a deliberate practice of the engineers and iron workers on site to make diagonal cuts on columns that were dangerous to remove, here is the account of Charlie Vitchers, one of the construction workers on site, describing the removal of the southern tower's facade:

    (Emphasis added. Nine Months at Ground Zero, The Story of the Brotherhood of Workers Who Took on a Job Like No Other, pg. 97.)

    Of course it's not certain if the same wedge technique was used on this column, but it could explain why there is no slag on the upper left portion if that small section had been left in tact to be broken by the crane/grappler pull.
     
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  39. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    @deirdre found this:

    10-17-01-15.
    https://911justicehalifax.wordpress.com/wtc-huge-hi-res-photos/#jp-carousel-2166
    Dated 10-17-01, five weeks after the attack.

    Here's the portion of the core that's still standing at this level.
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 21-53-39.


    Note this is ABOVE where the angle cut column is. This is the portion that surrounded the staircase where survivors were found. You can see from the spacing of the columns it matches this portion of the core:
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 22-24-31.

    So the angle cut column is likely one of these:
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 22-27-01.

    It's not hugely important which and where, as I think we've established that it as at ground level, and hence under the pile, and at the bottom of one of these pink columns. Hence not cut for weeks after the collapse.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2018
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  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Same set of columns, showing an angle cut, middle right.

    Metabunk 2018-01-28 22-50-17.

    Metabunk 2018-01-28 22-48-19.


    And again:
    Metabunk 2018-01-28 22-52-31.

    FEMAPhoto_WTC192 and 193


    The angle is quite similar as it's only around 30 degrees when seen from the side.
     
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