1. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

    According to some conspiracy theorists, Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups have connections or origins in the CIA. This is something for which I havent been able to to prove right or wrong.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone

    IMO, this seems like yet another enemy of my enemy is my friend blowback deal, but I'm not very familiar with the events of the 1980s so I really don't know.


    This leads me to these articles from infowars and debkafile.

    http://www.infowars.com/tamerlan-tsarnaev-attended-cia-sponsored-workshop/

    http://www.debka.com/article/22922/Boston-Bombers-Had-Links-to-al-Qaeda-Terrorist-Cells


    I don't doubt that the visited terror cells. But I doubt they got any real terrorist training based on the way the attacks were carried out. Dzhokar wore his hat backwards instead of forward which made it easier to identify him. Also, they didn't seem to have much of a plan in regards to what they would do after the bombing so they hung around the area like idiots and decided to bomb times square on a whim. People at that age tend not to think things through so it doesn't seem that unusual that they would haphazardly carry out their plan.

    [UPDATE: For a fuller debunking, see: https://www.metabunk.org/posts/49612 ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  2. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The CIA's main function in the 1980s was anti-soviet. Hence they funded stuff like the Mujahideen and hence the Taliban - because they resisted the Soviets in Afganistan. This is all accepted history. The question is if any direct links now exist. Infowars seems to accept a "suspicion" as a "link", which then gets promoted to "accepted fact" by the repeaters.
     
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  4. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

    Well, I'm honestly not too familiar with foreign events in the 1980s considering I was very young at the time. But that was general assessment I had based on what I have read.
    The debkafile articles seems highly speculative offering no concrete evidence of being "double agents".

    Less than a month after the bombings and theres already enough dis info and speculation that it would take a lifetime for one person to debunk it all.... :rolleyes:
     
  5. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    There are direct links that can be proven. Do you allow links to outside forums? I've summed up my findings already on another forum, and it was quite time consuming. If possible I'd like to leave a link to that thread.
     
  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Sure, link to anything that's useful.
     
  7. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    http://lunaticoutpost.com/Topic-The-smoking-gun-in-the-Boston-case-Graham-E-Fuller?page=1

    I think people are going to say this is merely a case of "blowback"...that is hard to imagine considering the very close personal relationship between Fuller and Ruslan Tsarni. Also, in the 90s the Tsarnaev brothers would have been children. It's hard for me to imagine a "blowback" scenario that makes sense...were we radicalizing Muslims through Fuller and the CIA up until 2001, but then we stopped and it just so happens that the only "blowback", in the form of a Chechen terrorist attack on US soil, was committed by a family with ties to Graham Fuller?
     
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  8. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    No input? I hope we aren't just picking on the irrational conspiracy theories and ignoring the plausible ones.
     
  9. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Why don't you explain the connection? Since I don't read conspiracy forums, I have no idea what you are talking about.

    Is this what you are referring to

    Mr Fuller has not worked for the government for quite a few years.
     
  10. Edgukator

    Edgukator Member

    OK, pick a piece of information here that we should be looking at. Here are the assertions that seem to be made.

    1) Ruslan Tsarni was married to Samantha Ankara Fuller, daughter of Graham Fuller.
    2) This Graham Fuller was a former member of the CIA, responsible for clandestine operations in the 1980s.
    3) The relationship between Tsarni and his father in law has continued beyond Ruslan's divorce from his wife.
    4) This relationship involves their joint involvement in the Congress of Chechen International Organisations, Inc
    5) This organisation in a front for further clandestine activities by... who exactly?
    5) Together they convinced the Tsarnaev brothers to plant bombs in the Boston marathon

    and then I draw a blank as to what purpose - that's not particularly clear other than some ill defined false flag.

    From what I tell, 1) seems to be correct - a Ruslan Tsarni was once married to Samantha Ankara Fuller, and she was the daughter of Graham E Fuller. Beyond that, I haven't been able to confirm 2) - that this is the same Graham E Fuller responsible for clandestine operations on behalf of the CIA in the 1980s. Stuck at point 2, I didn't push further. Do you have evidence that these two people are one and the same?

    EDIT: OK I did confirm yes, he was married, briefly, to the daughter of Graham Fuller, former member of the CIA, Rand and author of Three Truths and a lie.

    Of course, now I have to wade through miles of competing conspiracy theories as to what that involves next, so Rusty, can you explain what I'm supposed to look at next as to what Graham Fuller is supposed to have done?
     
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  11. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

    I used to live in MD. And I can tell you that there are alot of Federal Gov't employees living in Maryland and Virginia, particularly in the part of MD where Ruslan lives. So being a acquainted with a government employee in some way is just a probable coincidence.
     
  12. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Here is some good information on it from Sibel Edmonds:
     
  13. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    It is very interesting that the CIA/FBI have been involved with Tsarnaev going back 4 or 5 years. Also interesting that the Russians sent a warning about him only a few months before, which was apparently, largely ignored.

    There is a lot of talk about video of him dropping his backpack immediately prior to the bombing and yet this video is unavailable to the public. No doubt someone will say 'it is evidence and cannot be shown', but does that make sense?

    The 'Fuller' link may be dismissed as 'coincidental' but the propensity of these type of coincidences in these type of events does appear excessive when added together.

    I also find the level of the 'lock down' and warrantless home invasions/searches at gunpoint to be disturbing. Is it a precedent for repeat actions along these lines at will?

    Bombs going off and casualties are not new... The reaction is.

    Contrast the paramilitary reaction to this bombing with similar in other Countries or even in the States... it was unprecedented.
     
  14. Melbury's Brick

    Melbury's Brick Active Member

     
  15. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

     
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  16. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    In this case the Tsarnaevs detonated two bombs, disappeared into the local community and attempted to hide there or escape beyond that, killing an MIT police officer and critically injuring an MBTA officer along the way.

    Just food for thought... but if the usual faction of suspects at the CIA/FBI were involved in this instance of terrorism like they've been involved in others then wouldn't the best way to try to bring about "death by police" be to execute a police officer or to spread false stories of the suspects shooting police? The injury case may have been friendly fire:
    The official story is also curious because they apparently had an hour long gun battle at the boat later... with an unarmed man. At least they hadn't already released an official story to the mainstream media with him trying to commit suicide but shooting himself in the throat, I guess. But how was he shot in the throat if he wasn't bleeding in the boat? A satire: "Then we had to shoot him after we engaged in the gunfight, otherwise aliens would have abducted him." Official stories vary... A cynic might note that if the police wound up shooting each other after another policeman was executed, then they would have made sure that the suspect was armed in the end according to the official story:

     
  17. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Global Research rears it's head. Not a real creditable source.
     
  18. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    The investigation is ongoing... but our domestic "departments" can never be warned enough times or in enough ways if the people they're being warned about become incorporated in our own network of international mercenaries, privateers and terrists in some way. They're always protected at a higher level in the chain of command for the sake of national security, even if national security looks suspiciously like the interests of multinational corporations that hardly even pay taxes in America anymore. An brief overview of modern terrism:
     
  19. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    As I said, everyone has their own standards for epistemic inertia... for one reason or another. Have you researched Uncle Ruslan and come to the conclusion that he's a credible source because he's wealthy?
     
  20. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    If you read the information I provided in the previous link, you'll find that it goes beyond just being married to the daughter of an FBI agent, Graham Fuller. That FBI agent is also an expert on Russian minorities and Islamic extremism.

    In addition, he was identified in Sibel Edmonds' gallery several years ago. She has been gagged according to a "state secrets" doctrine so she hasn't been able to discuss exactly what these people were implicated in. If you research her case, you'll find that she is credible. The ACLU called her the most gagged person in the US.

    Public records show that Graham Fuller and Ruslan Tsarni owned a business called Congress of Chechen International Organizations. The business was operated out of Fuller's house. This business came up in a federal investigation into Benevolence International Foundation which turned out to be a massive front for al-Qaeda, masquerading as a charity. Here's the document that was used in the court case:

    http://www.investigativeproject.org/documents/case_docs/2154.pdf

    It should also be noted that Ruslan Tsarni worked for USAID, which has long been accused of being a tool of the CIA. Putin kicked USAID out of Russia last year I believe, for radicalizing Russia's enemies.

    So, given that we can prove Tsarni and Fuller's business was communicating with an al-Qaeda front, given that Fuller was previously accused of working against the interests of the US, given that Fuller specialized in Russian minorities and Islamic extremism...how can this all be mere coincidence?
     
  21. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    Excuse me. I said Fuller worked for the FBI but actually it was the CIA. He is indirectly linked to the Iran-Contra affair as well.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Fuller

    "In 1987, Fuller was identified as the author of a 1985 study that according to the New York Times was "instrumental" in the decision of the Reagan Administration to secretly contact leaders in Iran and "eventually led to the covert sale of United States weapons to Tehran in what became the Iran-Contra Affair."[3][4] The document suggested that the Soviet Union was in position to influence Iran and that the United States might gain influence by selling arms to the country.[14] According to Fuller, he had revised his opinion as the situation developed, but though he had told Government officials, a written report on the change was not circulated.[14] Fuller denied that the original "think piece" he had prepared with Howard Teicher was "tailored... to support Administration policy."
     
  22. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    And he hadn't worked for the US government for quite a few years.
     
  23. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

    I don't have enough time ATM to say everything I want just yet, but the thing about these intelligence related articles is that I find it very difficult to determine where the facts end and the speculations begin. We know that Ruslan was married to Fuller's daughter 10 years ago and is therefore acquainted with Graham Fuller, a CIA agent. I haven't found any evidence that Ruslan and Graham BOTH operated "The Congress of Chechen Organizations International". Nor have I found anything that links Ruslan or Fuller to the Boston Bombers living 600 miles away in Massachusetts. Ruslan is not exactly an immediate family memberr, not to mention I have a problem with what the CIA's specific intent might have been to influence the Boston Bombers to bomb the Boston Marathon. You could say that 9/11 brought us the patriot act, two wars, wiretapping etc. But I haven't heard any indication of military response to this tragedy yet.
     
  24. Pete

    Pete Member

    I genuinely think this is outside the scope of this forum (and perhaps all of us?).

    What the CIA get up to is really quite unknown. With the amount of money involved and things at stake, it could be anyone's guess. As Mick says, they certainly were anti-Soviet in the past, and will happily swap sides when it suits them, but right now? Who knows?! Mossad comes to mind, if you have the nerve in the US to call them terrorists anyhow...
     
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  25. Edgukator

    Edgukator Member

    This document doesn't show Fuller and Tsarni co-owned the company, nor that the this is evidence that Benevolence and the Congress were colluding in terrorism. It sounds more like an aid organisation asking for help from someone they thought was merely an Aid organisation. I had money in a bank where Kim Jong Il was housing his money. As I had no idea about that, I would not call a connection like that proof that I was in collusion with North Korea.

    Do you have any evidence that:

    - Fuller was a co-owner?
    - the Congress was actively and knowingly supporting or supported Al Qaeda?
     
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  26. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    Public records show that the address listed for Congress of Chechen International Organization is Graham Fuller's home address. Ruslan Tsarni is the name on the business but Fuller's home address is given.

    As far as motive for an intelligence agency to commit an act of terror...I think that is obvious. More terrorism leads to more funding and more power for the intelligence agencies. Research the Sydney-Hilton bombing.

    It's also possible that Fuller wasn't acting on behalf of US intelligence, but someone else. He had already been accused of treason by Sibel Edmonds years earlier.
     
  27. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    Graham Fuller's home address on the business:
    http://www.madcowprod.com/?attachment_id=3831

    I'm not claiming to have proof that their business was knowingly supporting al-Qaeda. I'm simply saying it's quite a set of coincidences and warrants a closer look at the Ruslan Tsarni and Graham Fuller. If you were investigating the bombing wouldn't a family link to al-qaeda be of interest to you?
     
  28. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    It is also possible that he had nothing to do with it. That what we had was an unhappy young man that felt out of place.

    Their entire plot seems almost a "Keystone Kop' routine. It shows no evidence of any real planning. They hijacked a car to take them to NYC so they use the other bombs. NO ONE with any real experience would come up with something that dumb.
     
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  29. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    I'm not suggesting the Tsarnaev brothers had experience. I'm suggesting they were patsies.
     
  30. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Why? Why would they volunteer to be patsies? They told the guy they hijacked that they did it.

    What is so hard about believing a young man, that feels that he is not fitting in, doing something stupid? It happens, and it will continue to happen. No conspiracies are needed, just human nature.
     
  31. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    You are completely misunderstanding me. They don't see themselves as "patsies" they see themselves as Jihadists. They told the guy they car jacked that they did it because they did do it and they're proud of it.

    Can you tell me what you think of Graham Fuller? Do you find it at all strange that he was a very imporant person in the CIA, a member of Rand Corporation, vouched for Fetullah Gulen, was named a traitor by Sibel Edmonds who is possibly the most gagged person in the US, wrote an article that led to the Iran-contra affair, lived with Ruslan Tsarnaev, and had a business operating out of his house that communicated with al-Qaeda front Benevolence International?
     
  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    What do you think he did, and why would he do it?
     
  33. RustyShackleford

    RustyShackleford New Member

    There's ample evidence, in my opinion, to show that Fuller was involved in the plot to bomb the marathon. There isn't enough evidence for me to show what his motive was yet. That's far more difficult to prove. I have some ideas, but that's all they are at this point.

    To clarify, you believe that everything I've shown in this thread is a series of extraordinary coincidences, correct?
     
  34. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    No. I think they are a series of explicable events and ordinary coincidences.
     
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And really the ONLY coincidence is that Fuller's daughter married a relative of the bombers. That's it. After that coincidence is accepted as just a coincidence, then everything else is just explicable events.
     
  36. Edgukator

    Edgukator Member

    Rusty, you're talking about the father-in-law of the uncle of these brothers. Thinking of my 3 uncles, I have only met one of the 3 uncle's father's-in-law (actually, that would be my Aunt's father-in-law, but you get the picture). 1 out of 3...

    Maybe their family is different, but a connection through an uncle's father-in-law is not automatically a close connection.
     
  37. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    My brother in law was Pres George W's asst Sec of the Interior. Does that mean I knew, met or had an influence on Pres Bush? Or even if agreed with most of his policies or voted for him? Nope to both of those.
     
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  38. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

    Sorry, I forgot all about this one. But that's okay, I actually looked some of this up and I can mark this as "Explained".

    I'll start off with the facts:




    There are many other articles that purport similar stories, but I'm mainly going to focus on Danile Hopsicker from www.madcowprod.com as he seems to be the source of it all.

    MadCow 'Unlce Ruslan' aided terrorists from CIA official's home


    This article from Madcow makes alot of leaps based on very little evidence. Hopsicker, claims that Tsarni incorporated the "Congress of Chechen International" Organizations" (CCIO) in Maryland, and that he was operating it from the home of an ex-CIA agent, but if you look at the screenshot, you'll see that Tsarni is listed as the "Resident Agent" and that the given address is listed as the "Principal Office" you go to the MD Dept of Taxation and Business Services website, and you look up their glossary you'll find the legal definitions for Resident Agent and Principal Office.

    [TABLE="class: outer_border, width: 500"]

    Resident Agent:
    A person that a sheriff can walk up to and hand a summons to in order to get jurisdiction over the entity for court. It may or may not be one of the owners or officers. In some cases this can be a Maryland corporation. In all cases the address must be a physical address (no P.O. boxes).

    [/TABLE]

    So the "Resident Agent" is not the owner, operator, executive or even management. This is basically a legal contact, in which case it is not uncommon for a business to list their resident agent as a law firm or someone who practices law. Which is happens to be a part of Tsarni's background.

    [TABLE="class: outer_border, width: 500"]

    Principal Office:
    All Maryland entities require some Maryland address where certain records are to be kept or certain requests can be made on management. This may or may not be where the actual business endeavor is conducted. For foreign entities this is a mailing address that can be anywhere.

    [/TABLE]


    As stated, "The Principal Office" is just a place where records are kept which may or may not be the actual place of business. This in no way indicates the physical location of the business, and based on this you cannot know what Tsarni's specific role was in CCIO let alone claim that he incorporated the company.

    I did a search for some places that I've been to in MD, and here's a business called "Pat's Pizza" which lists their resident agent and principal office at a personal residence while their actual business is located elsewhere. I also looked up a prominent MD business called Bethesda Softworks, As Bethesda Softworks INC, a law firm was listed as their resident agent. As Bethesda Softworks LLC, this same law firm was listed as their Principal Office.

    So based on this, the extent to which Tsarni was involved with CCIO is not known, and there isn't enough evidence to suggest that he founded, or operated the business from Fuller's home in Rockville.

    Hopsicker claims that CCIO was sending aid to Islamic Terrorists in Chechnya based on this fax. If you read the footer of this fax (which was conveniently cropped out on Hopsicker's article), you'll see that it's listed address is; 10030 15th ST Washington, D.C. 20005 which is obviously not in Maryland. Furthermore, this document was written to thank BIF for the 2500 pairs of shoes that were sent to Chechnya (not CCIO) while requesting an additional 5000 pairs of shoes for Chechens. This does not prove that CCIO neither sent nor received funds, supplies to anyone. The only thing that can be surmised from this document is that CCIO was a proxy of some sort, because there is simply not enough information to determine what their purpose actually was.

    Another important piece of relevant information that Hopsicker left out was the specific details of Benevolence International Foundation. While it is true that BIF funneled money to terrorist organizations, the issue here is how they did it.
    BIF fraudulently solicited donations from people all over the world and here in the U.S. under the guise of humanitarian efforts. This document details the specifcs of BIF's activites and even referrs to the CCIO fax about the shoes. While it is true that these 'shoes' were actually Anti-Mine boots, it is worth noting that these anti-mine boots were never delivered as BID shifted their efforts toward standard footwear and uniforms for soldiers in Chechnya. This indicates that BIF was responsible for both purchasing and fundraising for Chechen soldiers. Given BIF's deceptive tactics and that so many people uknowingly supported terrorism by donating to them and associating with them in some way. Given the fact that BIF's real activities were not known at the time, how can you be sure that Tsarni, CCIO or anyone else at that time knew that their donations were not going to civillians? Their headquartes was located in Chicago so somebody obviously leased commercial property to them, thus unkowingly supported their cause.

    And yet another important fact that Hopsicker left out was the fact that there was a war between Chechnya and the Russian Federation taking place at the time CCIO requested aid for Chechens and of course this war affected civillians as well as the soldiers thus explaining the need for civillians to have anti mine boots.That being said, would it be expected that a Chechen man living here in the U.S. might be sympathetic to his people in Chechnya and might assist an origanization that is purporting to send aid to his people?

    I have done a very extensive search for more information regarding the Congress of Chechen International Organizations and found nothing outside the 2 documents referenced in this page. If this had been an organization funneling large amounts of money or purchasing supplies for terrorists, I would expect that they would have left behind a much larger foot print. Not only that But Tsarni's name is only one one of these documents.

    What was Tsarni's role in CCIO other than being a legal contact?
    What was the purpose of CCIO?
    Why is there a CCIO in MD, and another in DC?
    Are they diffent branches of the same company?
    Are they two different companies with the same name?
    Did they know that BIF was in support of terrorism?


    And again, there is not enough information to make that determination.
     
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  39. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Lots of Americans of Irish descent sent money to the IRA during the troubles in Ireland/Northern Ireland. That doesn't mean that they were connected to the the IRA. It just meant that they 'supported' some of their policies. Today we would have major problem with that.
     
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  40. AluminumTheory

    AluminumTheory Senior Member

    It appears that I cannot go back an edit old posts.

    Well if Mick thinks I did a good job at explaining it perhaps he could update the thread title to "Ruslan Tsarni CIA/Terror Connections: Explained"