1. Defacto

    Defacto New Member

    Hello Mick;


    I have been following this thread for quite a while and find it SO fascinating that people insist that this law (or the language) mandates chip implants, regardless of any evidence or proof that you offer. Most, obviously haven't even read the bills or the law !

    I do have a small debate going on currently on you tube about this very topic.
    There are several individuals who have pointed out that Verichip RFID's were already implanted in at least 160 Police officers and officials in Mexico in 2004.
    Source:
    http://www.informationweek.com/rfid-chips-implanted-in-mexican-law-enfo/23901004

    My problem, is trying to find an update on that story. I know Verichip over time, had a huge problem with animal implant subjects developing fast growing cancers at the implant site, which BTW is said to be why this human trial was done in Mexico and not in the U.S.
    I can find plenty of articles about the Mexicans being implanted, but nothing so far about the outcome.

    Might you know about any updates or know where to find information ?

    Thanks :)
     
  2. RFID-supplier

    RFID-supplier New Member

    (I registered a few hours ago but gave up waiting for a confirming email and am posting unregistered).

    Disclaimer: I work for an RFID reader and tag supplier that sells glass tags that are implanted in animals.

    > I know Verichip over time, had a huge problem with animal implant
    > subjects developing fast growing cancers at the implant site,

    Verichip had no problem with animals developing cancer due to tag implants. It was reported as an incidental finding (a curiosity) in a single non-cancer research study where some tagged mice developed cancer. The paper author noted it was not a significant sample size and not necessarily caused by the tag. No other tagged animal study has shown there is a link to cancer and lots of institutions have RFID tags for medical research including cancer studies for many years.

    RFID tags have been implanted in millions of animals (cattle, livestock, pets, wildlife) for over 30 years and no correlation with cancer has been discovered. Millions of cats and dogs are tagged all over the world. Is there an epidemic of cancer in cats and dogs in the neck near the implant? RFID tagging of sheep and cattle is done to track disease (e.g. mad cow). If tags were causing cancer in food animals the problem would have recognized and stopped long ago.

    Glass is a fairly inert material and can exist inside living tissue without rejection. The tag has no power until it is within range of a reader’s magnetic field which inductively charges the tag to send 10 bytes (64 bit unique identifier and 16 bit checksum) using a weak magnetic signal. The radio signals in animal tags use magnetic fields so they can travel through water but are easily blocked by metal.

    > which BTW is said to be why this human trial was done in Mexico
    > and not in the U.S.

    The Mexicans tagged were not a medical trial. It was a security system.

    Verichip lost their shirt trying to get into the human tagging business because it was a stupid idea that nobody wanted. They spent millions of dollars to put readers in Florida hospitals to identify disoriented people and nobody was interested in signing up. The Verichip division was sold off and has been re-branded and the parent company, Digital Angel, has since sold the rest of its animal tagging business (Destron) to a small company in Boise, who has no plans to tag people.

    As for those who fear the government will force them to be tagged, I can only ask what would be the reason? The tag can only be read within a few feet of a reader (too far for black helicopters, it can’t be read outside your house when you’re inside) and if two tags are in the same field then neither can be read, so you can thwart the system by cuddling with another tagged person as long as you hold the same hand (or press foreheads together). A thin piece of metal foil is enough to block the signal from the reader. Magnetism is a near field force that does not project very far, particularly from a 2 mm diameter coil that is a little longer than a grain of rice.

    Low frequency RFID tags do not work well in an electrically noisy environment with magnetic fields and have poor performance in the presence of laptop power supplies (switchers are the worst), florescent lights (CFL also terrible), electric motors and generators (power tools), high voltage power lines (aerial or buried), vehicle ignitions and the like. Things that may actually give you cancer.

    What would be the motivation to inject 300 million people with a glass encapsulated circuit that can easily be thwarted by holding hands, operating a drill or with a foil candy bar wrapper? It would cost hundreds of millions of dollars to implement a national tagging program and it would certainly draw significant media attention. And if citizens were somehow convinced/coerced to go along with this (national security, ACA), what capability would it really offer to those who want to do this to us? Who would need to wirelessly read your unique number while at close range? Credit card companies do but they find it easier to put the chip in the card.

    RFID could be used to identify you but it’s much better to use your cell phone (worldwide locator), driver’s license (photo and address), address written on the front of your house, credit card, the tags in your car tires (10 year old federal law requires unique tire IDs and many use RFID), facial recognition system, company ID card, car license plate, social security number, unshredded trash, etc.

    The purpose of RFID in the ACA is to have a wireless way to identify and track medical devices. The ACA includes methods designed to decrease the cost of medical care and RFID can be a good tool if used properly. Modern hospitals put RFID tags on defibrulators and other shared devices and use real time location systems (building-wide reader network) to find them. That saves money.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Defacto

    Defacto New Member

    Thanks for your post.

    This appears to be a very knowledgeable and insightful perspective on the RFID implants.

    Most of this harmonizes with my elementary understanding of these devices and their properties. You seem quite certain as an insider in this industry, that the cancer problems experienced by the Verichip were WAY over blown and had little to do with its demise. I would have little cause to differ with your persuasive argument. However. I just want to make it clear that I didn't just skid-off of a tour of the conspiracy web sites before I posted the message you responded to.

    I may be guilty of incorrectly extrapolating some of the information from which I formed this opinion. This lead me to believe that the incidence of cancer were the main reason for the failure of the Verichip. But, let me at least site a Washington Post Article as some verification of my view.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/08/AR2007090800997_pf.html

    Allow me to post a fragment of this article:

    This was an Associated Press article released in 2007.
    I present this for what it is worth.

    I am very impressed with the insider knowledge that you presented in your response.
    I would certainly like to cite this information in future debates and discussions. I wonder if there are any citable source articles that you could recommend that are consistent with these
    views ?
     
  4. RFID-supplier

    RFID-supplier New Member

    (My metabunk registration came through)

    Tens of millions of animals are tagged every year in order to track their health and no significant evidence has shown that there is connection with cancer. Granted a few researchers have found cancer in tagged animals but there have been no conclusive studies that say that it came from inert glass rods. Glass is not carcinogenic except in fiber form and some art glass that contains other chemicals.



    Dr. Kathrine Albrecht is frequently a source for inciting this fear and she has valid privacy concerns about tracking people but the cancer scare is bogus and doesn't help her cause. Most people, even those in the RFID field think tagging humans is a bad idea.


    Our customers are almost entirely scientific researchers who use RFID in their work with a wide variety of endangered and protected species (not livestock and food animals). Our company sells hundreds of thousands of glass tags every year to government agencies and research institutions all over the world. There have been numerous studies on the effects of tags on the mortality and behavior of endangered animals and if there were any occurrences of cancer they would err on the side of safety and stop using them. I have never had one customer tell me they found cancer that may have come from a tag.


    I don’t know if there has been research published that declares tags safe but I trust that our customers would have noticed a problem a long time ago. Reasonable people can and do disagree (existence of climate change, Bigfoot, UFOs) but I talk with people every day who use thousands of tags in their research and it just doesn’t happen.


    This is a very old thread and I rarely post to the interwebs but I just ran into Metabunk’s site and found it to be good place for civil discourse. Nice!
     
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  5. RFID-supplier

    RFID-supplier New Member

    • Like Like x 1
  6. Dogpoo

    Dogpoo Guest

    No matter how hard you try to get around it, the implantable micro chip is here. Just 10 years ago when it was said to exist people just like you went on to 'debunk' the myth. Well you were wrong it does exist and it is being used today and there are beta communities that are openly using it right now. So there is no hoax there. And the chip is used to track personal records, and used to buy and to sell, not very hard to imagine in today's technological community. As far as the language in the Obamacare bill, your right it's vague and if you want to think that because the vague language could mean a million other things then great believe that all you want. However as usual guys like you will attempt to keep your Nation in the dark for years until they wake up one morning and find out you were wrong and they could have stood against legislation that they were led to believe doesn't exist, but it's too late. Bottom line when it comes to a tool like this that is way to easy to put all information in one easy to reach location and then tie it to every major function in society, of course it will be used. It's easy to see that it would at first be a choice, then a requirement for certain items or jobs, and then later required as frustrations mount that not everyone is using the same method. Without the chip there is the usual paperwork with the chip instant access to any and all info,...so yah,...not really tough to imagine.
     
  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Sure the implantable chip is here. My dog had one twelve years ago. Nobody has ever denied such a thing exists, of tried to debunk it ten years ago. The first test in 1998 were highly publicized, and VeriChip got preliminary FDA approval in 2002.

    The language is not vague on the subject of compulsory implants. There's nothing in there about compulsory implants, which is the point of this thread.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. RFID-supplier

    RFID-supplier New Member


    The glass RFID tag for subcutaneous implants was invented by Phillips (FDX) and Texas Instruments (HDX) in the 1980's to track swine for disease control in the Netherlands. Both had marketing departments that successfully promote them worldwide to improve the health of food animals. Who would deny their existence when you can buy them from Allied, Newark, Digikey and Mouser (retail electronic component suppliers)?



    RFID is a great way to track paper records. If you tag each folder, you can find them even under a pile of other ones. Lawyers must keep chain of custody on many documents and 3M makes a nice system for doing just that. You can either walk around with a hand reader to search desks or buy a fancy system of networked readers in the ceiling to look through the entire office. You should have patented the idea before they did and made a lot of money.


    Certainly not. RFID products have been commercially available for decades.


    That location will be within reach of your arms because RFID only works within areas close to a reader. It is not powerful enough to reach satellites or even across the street.


    Then your concern should be with how databases and computers are used because RFID is not a very good way to track you or your belongings, particularly when there are so many other better and easier ways.
     
  9. bryan7777777

    bryan7777777 Guest

    To many people stick to their beliefs with out looking at both sides first, but anyway to guy who wrote this article how does kerping track of society benifit the goverment and the worlds been fuctioning quite well without the goverment having to track everybody. Honestly if you were smart enough you would realise that you are in fact being decieved by a cake of words on a plate sprinkled with deciet, the goverment will be smart enough to simply first introduce their product of control before they go into really showing their true motives behind such a device.

    So this bill should be a big red flag warning everybody of what is to come oh and good luck to you americans on the 21 march they will begin chipping. The mark of the beast is here
     
  10. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

  11. RFID-supplier

    RFID-supplier New Member

    The read range on that antenna-less chip is a few mm. It is useless for tracking. A simple barcode could be read from a few feet away and is much more effective and cheaper than this chip. Granted you could easily put masking tape over the barcode to block reading it but a 1" piece of aluminum foil will neutralize the RFID tag.

    Why aren't you worried about the chips that are in your tires? Or car keys? Or the card that opens the parking lot gate? Better get your pocket knife and remove the chips before "they" put readers at all the toll booths and highway overpasses. Then they will only be able to monitor your whereabouts with license-plate recognition cameras which can read from 100 feet away.

    I am an RFID supplier and work with these products enough to be aware what they are capable of doing. You can irrationally worry and scare yourself with future scenarios of oppressive government if that's your thing. Or you could apply your keen imagination and intellect to solve society's real problems.
     
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  12. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    hospitals in my home town are getting nurses ready to implant these chips!
     
  13. elie

    elie New Member

    Well the fact that it is for NATIONAL health registry purposes, I think that it implies that everybody has to chip, otherwise how are they going to make the numbers? with cats and dogs? nooooooooooooo.....of course with people, and it can't be a minority, it has to everyone in the whole U.S.
    Every time something is going to be implanted or used in humans, big companies do tests in what? ANIMALS, how many years does the U.S. have implanting chips in pets? a bunch of years, and it has showed that it works, so they're using it now with people.
    And it's going to be like that, otherwise they wouldn't have made a law.
     
  14. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    It's just a registry for various medical electronic devices like dialysis machines or IV pumps and implantable chips are just one among dozens of electronic devices, but it's not a "health registry" nor does it apply to people.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's not even that - the registry is for certain types of medical devices regardless of if they are electronic. Hip implants, for example. Just hunks of metal and plastic.
     
  16. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    It certainly implies that everyone who has an implanted device will have a serial number on that device (noting that "device" can include inert lumps of plastic and/or metal as Mick has noted)

    What numbers have to be "made up"?? the number of serial numbers will be the number of devices fitted - nothing more or less.

    Why not? If a minority of people have devices fitted then a minoiry of people will be carrying these serial numbers


    You haven't actually read any of this thread, have you??

    Because if you had done you would knowthat they have NOT made "it" law at all, and you have been lied to by the conspiracy industry.
     
  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  18. wondering

    wondering New Member

    I am confused... HR 4972 did pass. And the Medical Devices referred to on Page 1501 of that Bill which the RFID chips are a part of state that they "May be implemented" if directed by the Secretary. I believe the Secretary being referred to in the document was the Head of Verichip, maker of the RFID chips based on the research I have done. The chip implementation was supposed to be started at 36 months from passage of the bill which means these RFID's are supposed to be implanted in March 2013. Of course everyone will be required to have one or they will be refused healthcare, jobs, refused purchasing, etc. These chips will carry your medical records, personal information, bank information, and your personal whereabouts can be pinpointed by the chip. This is the information I have uncovered after about a month of research.
     
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member


    The bill does not require anything to be implanted. It does not mention RFID chips. They are simply one of THOUSANDS of types of medical devices that would be covered, including hip implants.

    The Secretary mentioned is the Secretary of Health and Human Services. Currently that's Kathleen Sebelius, but it's really referring to the office.

    Wait until April. Notice nothing at all happens.
     
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  20. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    At a con, I was at recently, all the badges had a RFID chips (they had had problems with folks making and selling counterfeit badges). Each badge had to be scanned my hand from a few inches away. This was to control the entrance to a hotel ball room---The entire door was maybe 6 ft wide, and the scanners could NOT read them from even a couple of feet.
     
  21. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Cycle races have long used RFID chips for timing - they used to be little clip-on chips afixed to the frame - now they are miniaturised even more and are decals on the rider's number-bib - the aerial is a silver filigree, and the chip itself is a tiny bump little bigger than a grain of sand.

    Back_side_of_disposable_RFID_tag_used_for_race_timing.

    of course these chips do not actually contain anything more than a serial number that is then related back to the database - but they are seriously small!
     
  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Read distance varies, and is increasing. I've run a few races with RFID chip timing. You used to have to tie a large (well, the container was large) reusable chip to your shoe. Now, like MikeC says, they are disposable chips on the bibs. So those are being read from 3-4 feet away very consistently - here though they want to only read the chip when you cross the line, so reading it from further away would be counterproductive. Likewise for a security system, the handheld readers (and/or the badges) are designed so they only read the card in close proximity, otherwise it would be reading all the nearby cards.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio-frequency_identification
    I suspect the maximum read distance for an implantable chip is a lot less, as the antenna is so compact.
     
  23. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Regardless of the range, legal, realistic, or reason behind it. I will not, for any reason, allow my government to track me in any way, shape, form or fashion. You can try to justify this until you turn blue in the face, HITLER did the same thing with tattoos. He first took away their right to defend themselves. DOES ANY OF THIS SOUND FAMILIAR?! Get your head out of the scientific sand and look around you at what is REALLLY going on people.
     
  24. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Nobody is trying to justify it. The thread is about the hoax that states that the law will require it. It does not. There is no indication that it will.
     
  25. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    You are pretty close, I did some research years ago and found a company was working on a chip for pets,
    so it would start with something like pet tracker, then child tracker, also I found that the us airforce had a patent too, so your comments make a lot of sense.
     
  26. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I do wonder why folk go to such desperate lengths to make such blatantly false claims as compulsory RFID implants and accuse the 'liberals' of dishonest folks fabrications...
     
  27. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    If any of you honestly think they are going to implant a chip in you so they can track you and sorts, you're [seriously mistaken].
     
  28. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    I have to wonder what folks would say, if RFID locating chips were proposed for pedophiles? I wonder if the same outrage would be there?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  29. You are absolutely right, Class II devices do cover a wide range of devices, however one of those particular devices is the RFID chip. What is currently holding it back is the resistance that you are addressing. One must ask themselves not only what is taking place now but the direction in which we are going. It is not difficult to anticipate. What we must not do is allow us to become divided but instead use the commonality of concern and cautiousness about the direction we are going and appropriate organize and plan on how to effectively address it.


    Watch the video of then Senator Biden swearing in Justice Roberts. Listen to them in their own words. They are preparing too, be wise and take heed.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aNBssO4_do
     
  30. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Well, are they also going to force us to all have hip replacements?

    There is NOTHING about requiring anything to be implanted.
     
  31. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Well, just to be clear again, the bill actually covers tens of thousands of devices.

    The deal is that the government want to track how well these devices work over time. For cost-benefit reasons.
     
  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  33. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Thanks for this. As a Christian, this caused much unrest for me. Thank you for debunking!
     
  34. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    I just wanted to comment on one thing. Someone said something about Christians allowing this. That would NOT happen. Christians would not allow something to be implanted into their hands like this as their faith dictates that this would be referred to as, "the mark o the beast," and so would go against God to allow such a thing to be implanted. I'm not saying this is or is not in the word to be happening, simply that this was NOT the doing to Christians.

    That's all!

    Thanx for the info! :)
     
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    If Christians never go against God, then why do they sin?

    See "No true Scotsman"
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
     
  36. RFID-supplier

    RFID-supplier New Member


    I would be outraged that they were using an ineffective technology since the read range is quite short and easily blocked with metal foil. You could not even read a tagged person in a house while standing on their front porch.
     
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  37. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    We have tried to say that and folks don't want to believe us. I would expect if something that can be read at a distance is developed, we will see it used in pets and in wildlife. I am sure that some the wildlife researchers would LOVE to have this technology. Use it in elephants and rhinos and when an animal doesn't move naturally, go check it. It would get the officials out in the field looking for a poacher a LOT quicker.
     
  38. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    even if it was to pass, how can they demand the whole populous of "free people" to have these chips inserted in them, last I checked, we still have the will to say no and if a vast majority say no, then what can be done.
     
  39. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    ell tech it doesnt matter if it is on or under, the point is if we choose it. the bible says e will not be able to buy food or have anything etc if we dont have the mark of the beast. so if the thing is true that if we dont have or get these devices, then we cant have anyhting to me it is the same thing