1. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    The purpose of this thread is to show how despite being informed months ago that the KC-10 video shown at Dane Wigington's has:
    -aerodynamic contrails on the wing
    -flap track fairings not spray nozzles
    -aerodynamic contrails which start and stop due to fling through air with varying moisture content
    -that the original content of the video was a prank pulled by genuine USAF pilots on chemtrail believers, not someone filming from a civilian airplane as claimed in the pirated version on Dane's site

    Despite being told all of these things, on his website Dane continues to insist that the video shows spray nozzles and spraying from the flap track fairings rather than ordinary aerodynamic contrails.

    Here is the video linked to at Dane's site which he refers to during the debate with Mick



    from the debate:
    On May 18, 2013, in a letter to G. Edward Griffin, and CC'd to DANE WIGINGTON, I discussed and gave links explaining the provenance of the KC-10 video and that the video which Wigington says are "spray nozzles" were simply the flap track fairings. Here is a copy of the email I sent them:
    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/pr...nformation-freedom-aagreement.267/#post-44668


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    See Also this discussion of the original Hoax video, and the promotion of that video
    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/question-about-contrailscience-com-kc-10-tanker-enemy-video.2761/
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 16, 2014
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  2. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Here is the letter I sent to Griffin and Dane three months ago when the topic of whether military or civilian planes were being seen :

    To: G. Edward Griffin
    cc: Dane Wigington

    From: Jay Reynolds

    Mr. Griffin,
    I have been reading the recent exchange of blog postings between you and Dane Wigington regarding your research project using Flight Tracking to identify planes leaving "chemtrails". Today I see that Dane has made another response:

    two USAF pilots playing a prank on "chemtrail" believers, you can hear them speak about the joke in the cockpit as they filmed. The footage has been significantly altered by Youtube user "Tankerenemy" and others who have been involved in several video hoaxes. Though the video does show a tanker jet, this is not evidence of "spraying", but rather of the gullibility of Dane Wigington.

    [​IMG]

    The second video he presents is a very shaky video from the ground, which is claimed to be a KC-135 tanker over the French Alps. I examined the video and captured several screen grabs, which when magnified, clearly show the plane is not a KC-135 but rather closely matches an Air France Airbus-380. I base my conclusion on the livery marking of the tail and the fact that the KC-135's have neither flap track fairings nor winglets.

    [​IMG]

    I think that Dane's protestations against your research survey of "chemtrail" planes are most easily shown to be a moot question because on his own website, he features no photos of tankers spraying, as he certainly would if he could. However, in an article about the government spraying Dane does feature a clearly identifiable American Airlines jet HERE. This makes it clear enough that he is aware that the jets which can be identifed as making "chemtrails" are mainly ordinary passenger planes.

    [​IMG]

    I must say that in my fifteen years of following this issue, though I've heard the claim many many times, I have yet to see a clear instance of a military tanker jet spraying. There were none shown in any of the movies Michael Murphy made, and there are none on Dane's website, though both show identifiable commercial jets such as this Cargolux 747:

    [​IMG]

    Mr. Griffin, one point that Dane makes which I can agree with is about "assertions on an issue with such gravity, assertions which are not supported by available data". You may recall that nearly two years ago, 9/29/11, I wrote to you and requested your participation along with Dane, Francis Mangels, and Michael J. Murphy in a formal Freedom of Information Agreement. I described ten incidents over the past fifteen years in which major figures had repeatedly made claims of significance about "chemtrails" which had never been supported. I urged you to all participate and help move from a stymied conundrum towards a resolution. Though you said you were in favor, and suggested cooperation by the others, unfortunately they did not comply.

    Dane's point is well taken, if data is available, it should become public. In a sense, Dane is asking for the data which your research has gathered, much as I suggested he should have done before. I might add that Dane should feel free to produce his own study of this subject. I recently heard a discussion on the Global Skywatch conference call where Dane was told by Mark from southern Utah that he had also been able to identify "chemtrails" coming from passenger jets. That group has hundreds of members and could easily mount a large campaign to gather fresh data in an ongoing basis. I am certainly personally interested in reviewing the information you and others will develop.

    In closing, let me renew my call for a Freedom of Information Agreement which, if already put in place, could have avoided the confusion Dane seems to have on this subject. You will find a copy of my previous thoughts about that at this LINK.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  3. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Either Dane has simply been ignoring what he should have paid attention to, has been paying attention but doesn't understand the concepts, has been paying attention but intentionally continues anyway, or he doesn't want to know.

    This example clearly shows that there is a great disconnect somewhere for Dane when factual information can be plainly presented to him yet he walks into no-man's-land totally unarmed in a debate.

    Are there any other possibilities for why he got this so wrong?
     
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  4. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    The KC-10 crew member is still active on YT. He has met up on a guided tour of his base with at least one chemtrail believer. See comments on video.

    Perhaps someone can put Dane in contact?



    https://www.youtube.com/user/USAFFEKC10A
     
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  5. Mumbles

    Mumbles Active Member

    Came across this today. Guess which video NZ's most prominent chemtrail proponent posted in response to a request to "put your research skills to good use" (see comments):

    http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress....hemtrails-in-northern-advocate/#comment-18058

    No surprises to see this from Swinney though, as she has repeatedly shown she knows very little about aircraft and aviation, despite the endeavour she is undertaking.
     
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  6. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    I sent a reply to Clare in regards to her assessment of the KC-10 video. It was pending moderation earlier. Somehow I don't that she will allow it to appear?
     
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  7. Mumbles

    Mumbles Active Member

    Doesn't look that way :)
     
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  8. Bill McDonald

    Bill McDonald New Member

    Notice the condensation cloud that appears above the wing root everytime the contrails appear? This is typical of slow flight at low altitudes in moist air.
     
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  9. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

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  10. hemi

    hemi Active Member

    I just noticed she's updated her contact info to include her degree (a masters in psychology, of all things).

    Isn't that one of those disinformation traits? "An appeal to authority"? ;)
     
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  11. EpsilonVonVehron

    EpsilonVonVehron New Member

    I left a comment on Swinney's blog last week. I linked to the 1975 WMO document that describes persisting contrails, pointing out that this is in disagreement with her own suppositions.
    Didn't make it past moderation, either did my two follow up posts asking why.
    It is dishonest of her to not post all the facts, especially in light of the claims made by Swinney. I'm finding it hard to think of any sane reasons why a person would act like that.
    Page 90 in the pdf (p66 of the doc).
    http://library.wmo.int/pmb_ged/wmo_407_en-v2.pdf
     
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  12. hemi

    hemi Active Member

    Clare's similar to MM in that there's no room for dissenting voices on her blog (although she does let the occasional comment through, mostly, I think, so she can follow-up with some irrelevant or illogical points, and then deny any right of reply).

    Also like MM, I think she's best left alone.
     
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  13. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

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  14. Mumbles

    Mumbles Active Member


    This is perhaps my favourite post from her, as it illustrates so well her standard of "research".

    http://chemtrailsnorthnz.wordpress....mages-of-whenuapai-airport-show-white-planes/

    Besides being visibly grey rather than white, the means to identify these aircraft are easily available to anyone who cares to look. They make frequent airshow appearances every summer for one. That Swinney doesn't even seem to realise that Whenuapai is an active RNZAF base rather than a civilian airport is telling.
     
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  15. KC-10FE

    KC-10FE Active Member

    One of the more fun sights to see when refueling. Originally uploaded by USAFFEKC10A and of course reuploaded by a conspiracy theorist because it is an aircraft with white stuff coming out the back, so they must be deadly chemicals.

     
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  16. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Excellent close-in view of how the low pressure area above the wings forms the aerodynamic contrail, and how the amount of contrailing increases/decreases in response to variable atmospheric conditions.

    Clearly not coming from "nozzles", Dane Wigington!
     
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  17. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    I have noticed chemmies referring to this sort of thing as "wing sprayers", whatever that means.
     
  18. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    Great shot(s)! Thanks....

    That looks like some skilled flying to refuel like that...hard not to get distracted by the contrails etc...(as mentioned)- wouldnt want to make a mistake :)
     
  19. Bill McDonald

    Bill McDonald New Member

    Chemtrails are real! ;)
    cropduster.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 23, 2014
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  20. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Not sure if Bill is serious or not - if you are serious about including ag spraying as chemtrails Bill, then consider that you breathing is also creating a chemtrail.....and if you are not serious a smiley would be appreciated!
     
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  21. Bruno D.

    Bruno D. Senior Member

    He isn't serious. The name of the image he uploaded is cropduster.jpg, and at his "new members" post says he's a chemtrail debunker. :)
     
  22. Bill McDonald

    Bill McDonald New Member

    :) Sorry for any confusion. I was a crew member on KC-130's for many years. That is partially to blame for my sick sense of humor.
     
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  23. swady

    swady New Member

    When i was a kid say 25 years ago i would watch plane contrails disappear. it took about 1 minute or 2 but they never persisted for more than 5 mins. even in the winter. Now since about 5 years ago when i began to renotice they dont disappear in summer and winter.
     
  24. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Many chemtrail believers say that they remember when "spraying" began in the mid 90s. Are they wrong by over a decade or are you?
     
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  25. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    There is a term for this: "Selective memory".

    This is a recent article about Humans' ability to repress memories:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/...lective-memory-does-exist-say-scientists.html

    This is extreme, as in when terrible events happen, and we wish to forget them. However, the converse can also be true. As in, the suggestion that we "don't remember" something as being similar...usually these are due to current 'memes' that are having influence over what we (most Humans) understand is a flawed memory process. Our brains are incredible, but not infallible.

    EDIT: There is more to your personal recollection, no doubt. You may wish to investigate the different technologies of the Low-Bypass Turbojet, versus the High-Bypass TurboFan engine designs, and the sorts of contrail formation that result.

    https://www.metabunk.org/threads/engine-efficiency-high-bypass-and-contrail-frequency-how-much.226/

    http://contrailscience.com/thirty-contrails-forty-years-ago/

    http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails/
     
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  26. Bill McDonald

    Bill McDonald New Member

    I was flying 30 years ago, and I can assure you that some days contrails persisted, while other days they evaporated immediately.
     
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  27. Bill McDonald

    Bill McDonald New Member

    Of course, my memory could be faulty too, but I'm confident that pictorial documentation will support my assertion.
     
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  28. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member


    LOL! So was I. Welcome.

    Once again it might be worth mentioning that the video that is the subject of this thread was meant as a SPOOF on "chemtrail" believers.

    So, focus back on this, please.
     
  29. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    Yes, indeed. Our memories may sometimes be faulty, but there is a phrase I am reminded of:

    "Facts is Facts"

    Not grammatically correct, but apt.
     
  30. KC-10FE

    KC-10FE Active Member

    1) I posted this on another thread, but since it pertains to this one as well..

    Dane..here are your nozzles, commonly known as flap hinges!

    fllphinge1. flap hne 2.


    2) And an aerodynamic contrail during air refueling

    From the cockpit & From the air refueling pod

    kc101. KC=10.
     
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  31. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The KC-10 flap hinge fairings are very skinny, just basically covering the hinge. Other planes have much more bulbous fairings, sometimes referred to as Küchmann Carrots or antishock bodies. These improve the aerodynamic performance (and hence fuel efficiency) of planes travelling above Mach 0.7 by smoothing out the cross-sectional area of the plane (i.e., so there is a less sudden drop in cross sectional area behind the wing)

    More detailed explanation and examples:
    http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/aerodynamics/q0240.shtml

    I bring this up because variations in the size and shape of the fairings might seem suspicious.
     
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  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I saw this photo of a C-5 Galaxy flap fairing being pointed to as "nozzles" on Facebook:
    [​IMG]

    The C-5 (the bigger plane below) certainly does have a lot of them - but then it's pretty large.
    [​IMG]

    It also has these unusual segmented flaps:
    [​IMG]
     
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  33. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    What's going on in that last picture? The head of the plane is snapped open to the vertical, and it's undercarriage is incredibly low. It looks like a fat dachshund with tiny feet.
    [​IMG]
     
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  34. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    Pete,
    It is the C-5 "kneeling"



    http://www.westover.afrc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=16559


    upload_2014-4-4_21-29-14.

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/55-9/ch2.htm
     
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  35. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    Wow I thought it was in the process of being dismantled or something.
     
  36. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    Last edited: Apr 4, 2014
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  37. Agav8r

    Agav8r Member

    Now THAT is a beautiful aircraft.
     
  38. blargo

    blargo Member

    Wow, brought back many memories. This is the aircraft, TF-39 engines in particular, that I worked on in the Air Force. Worked the flightline and engine shop. What amazed me about this plane it looked so slow when it was taking off, I wondered how it got the lift. The engines were massive. I could stand in the intake and not touch the top. Learned a great deal at Travis AFB.
     
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  39. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    The bunk meme that the images and videos above represent evidence of nozzles is quickly becoming established as paradigm among the believers. The subject needs an easily understood video and infographic debunking suitable for easy reference.

    In fact, this bunk is increasingly being used by Dane Wigington as a "Fallback" position when he becomes befuddled or is confronted by inconsistencies and illogic. He has to resort to a classic Gish Gallop trying to dissemble when the host tried to pin him down on things. watch this video from 5:00 on...
    His last resort is seen @ 9:15

     
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  40. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Yes. The "nozzles" claim is one of his big ones. It would be good to take the visuals which HE uses and compare them to diagrams and pictures of the same types of planes, showing what those parts really are.
     
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