Debunked: Fake City / "US Army Trains for Martial Law In US."

Svartbjørn said:

You're jumping to the single most outlandish and worst case scenario over mundane training that takes place across the world as a "just in case" scenario. No one WANTS it to happen but no one wants to get caught with their pants around their ankles either.

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Believing that what happened in Boston will happen again is not outlandish. @Soulfly can talk about counting this and that as if martial law didn't get imposed, but it doesn't change what happened. Boston is fresh in our memories. And then we had that ridiculous situation with Chris Dorner so soon after. I realize that Dorner was not a military situation. But these types of incidents make me suspicious that we are losing our sense of common decency and placing the citizen below the "authorities" in place of what has traditionally been the reverse. It takes a bigger and better man to humbly serve.

Our service men are some of our best. I do not believe they desire to break their oaths to protect and uphold the Constitution. I see their humanity shining through in decisions like refusing to go along with bombing Syria.

But I also see the potential for what "comes next" to be an ordered military response to protests. How many of our servicemen would contravene that order and say "No sir!"? We need to be prepared, yes. But more important is our ability to exercise humility and restraint.

Someone must stand for the little guy. I do so in hopes that if I'm ever being trodden on, someone will be there to stand for me.

curtispenner said:

Believing that what happened in Boston will happen again is not outlandish. @Soulfly can talk about counting this and that as if martial law didn't get imposed, but it doesn't change what happened. Boston is fresh in our memories. And then we had that ridiculous situation with Chris Dorner so soon after. I realize that Dorner was not a military situation. But these types of incidents make me suspicious that we are losing our sense of common decency and placing the citizen below the "authorities" in place of what has traditionally been the reverse. It takes a bigger and better man to humbly serve.

Our service men are some of our best. I do not believe they desire to break their oaths to protect and uphold the Constitution. I see their humanity shining through in decisions like refusing to go along with bombing Syria.

But I also see the potential for what "comes next" to be an ordered military response to protests. How many of our servicemen would contravene that order and say "No sir!"? We need to be prepared, yes. But more important is our ability to exercise humility and restraint.

Someone must stand for the little guy. I do so in hopes that if I'm ever being trodden on, someone will be there to stand for me.

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It seems to me that the chief disconnect between you and most other posters here, CP,
is that you seem to be characterizing Boston as something very negative, that should be avoided in the future
(and you seem to be trying to stretch all traditional meaning of the term "martial law" to make the successful apprehension of a potentially dangerous suspect into a scary thing)

I agree with you that "believing that what happened in Boston will happen again is not outlandish" and I'd definitely welcome a more rational
populace less likely to set off bombs at public events…but I don't see how trying to re-write Boston as "martial law" gets us there.

curtispenner said:

But I also see the potential for what "comes next" to be an ordered military response to protests. How many of our servicemen would contravene that order and say "No sir!"? We need to be prepared, yes. But more important is our ability to exercise humility and restraint.

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There's a section of the UCMJ that allows for that exact thing to happen. If a serving member of any armed service feels they are given an illegal order, they are bound by military law to disregard that order. "I was just following orders" is no longer a defense for that exact reason.

curtispenner said:

Believing that what happened in Boston will happen again is not outlandish. @Soulfly can talk about counting this and that as if martial law didn't get imposed, but it doesn't change what happened. Boston is fresh in our memories. And then we had that ridiculous situation with Chris Dorner so soon after. I realize that Dorner was not a military situation. But these types of incidents make me suspicious that we are losing our sense of common decency and placing the citizen below the "authorities" in place of what has traditionally been the reverse. It takes a bigger and better man to humbly serve.

Our service men are some of our best. I do not believe they desire to break their oaths to protect and uphold the Constitution. I see their humanity shining through in decisions like refusing to go along with bombing Syria.

But I also see the potential for what "comes next" to be an ordered military response to protests. How many of our servicemen would contravene that order and say "No sir!"? We need to be prepared, yes. But more important is our ability to exercise humility and restraint.

Someone must stand for the little guy. I do so in hopes that if I'm ever being trodden on, someone will be there to stand for me.

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That's your opinion.

Now can you answer my last question? Preferably with the number of people that were arrested for violating the shelter in place.

Anyone who says that any reason for martial law (or even troops being invited for non martial law reasons as Curtis has said) should be fought against is the type of person DHS should know about and keep tabs on imo.

If there were two mad men running around with bombs and guns in my city, I wouldn't need to be asked to stay inside. As I'm sure some citizens of the Boston area didn't need to be asked to stay in.

We have strayed way off topic here though, I'm sure Mick can move this all when he wakes up.

To get back on track the claim is that it is to train for martial law and some people are concerned about similarities to North American facilities. However I would argue that. Yes they have a church but also they have a mosque. As pointed out they have a football, sorry soccer, stadium, why not baseball? There is a building that plays the part of either apartments or an embassy, why would you need to wargame an embassy scenario for martial law?

As I mentioned earlier it really is a poor layout and environment to train for a task like that. Prior to every deployment to Northern Ireland during the Troubles we would train in our FIBUA facilites, and although training for a policing role much of it was riot control, check points, patrolling etc. Certain members would be tasked to train with dogs or to train as searchers but either way the training environment was mainly based around residential areas and tight spaces rather than an open plan zone like this.

Pete Tar said:

It sort of seems like jumping to the conclusion that because the fire department are practising fire drills, then they are planning to set a building on fire.
And if there is a fire then that becomes 'told you so'.
Any proof for a deliberate triggering of martial law can only be found in whatever the triggering event was, the fact they train for possible scenarios is not evidence of false flag martial law and is very poor reasoning.
But it sells.

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I agree with you and that is wrong but I think it is wrong because some of us are actually trying to protect people from harm and the scaremongering like Alex Jones does is mostly just self-serving.

Soulfly said:

Now can you answer my last question? Preferably with the number of people that were arrested for violating the shelter in place.

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The shelter in place was their arrest. If an army was pointing assault rifles at me and my family and yelling orders, we would comply, as the vast majority did. Unless you want to die or get badly assaulted, listening to the orders given by the army in this situation is the wise thing to do. You just take pictures of it happening and then assert your first amendment right to point out that the law was broken and there should be consequences. I'm sure you've seen the pictures. I have consciously not posted them out of a desire to not sensationalize.

Soulfly said:

Anyone who says that any reason for martial law (or even troops being invited for non martial law reasons as Curtis has said) should be fought against is the type of person DHS should know about and keep tabs on imo.

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Wow that's extremely creepy. I guess keeping tabs on your political dissidents is nothing new. Ironically, it's historically done in tyrannical police states :/

curtispenner said:

Wow that's extremely creepy. I guess keeping tabs on your political dissidents is nothing new. Ironically, it's historically done in tyrannical police states :/

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People with your illogical beliefs scare me a whole lot more than my own Government does.

This is off topic. Please take it to PMs if you want to continue.

Gary Cook said:

some of us are actually trying to protect people from harm

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Yeah but how? What actions are resulting in protection from harm?


(okay nevermind it's offtopic.)

I'm new to this site, so bear with me please.

I wanted to make a couple of points regarding this issue. First, it is important to understand what the Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG) actually is. As the name implies, and the press releases specify, the AWG has the primary mission of finding creative solutions (i.e., not doctrinal) to unique military problems, such as terrorism and insurgency. It is a very small group recruited from senior Noncommissioned Officers (NCOs) and commissioned Officers. They develop methods of dealing with certain unconventional problems, then move trainers down to other Army units to train and assist them. They have been an invaluable asset in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That being said, they are neither equipped for, or large enough for, any sort of martial law operations. The mock city is not a new idea, and its primary role is to train in urban combat, something that we have found cannot be solved by mere doctrine and repetition.

My second point is about martial law training in general. I am an infantryman in the US Army. I am currently in the National Guard, and was on active duty (standing army) for about 5 years. Not once, even as a National Guardsman, have I ever received training that resembles anything like martial law. We would have no idea how to deal with a situation like martial law, and would probably just wing it. Of course, that being said, the likelihood of martial law is pretty slim. Negligible I'd say.

Soulfly said:

People with your illogical beliefs scare me a whole lot more than my own Government does.

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DaddyRTO said:

I'm new to this site, so bear with me please.

I wanted to make a couple of points regarding this issue. First, it is important to understand what the Asymmetric Warfare Group (AWG) actually is. As the name implies, and the press releases specify, the AWG has the primary mission of finding creative solutions (i.e., not doctrinal) to unique military problems, such as terrorism and insurgency. It is a very small group recruited from senior Noncommissioned Officers (NCOs) and commissioned Officers. They develop methods of dealing with certain unconventional problems, then move trainers down to other Army units to train and assist them. They have been an invaluable asset in both Iraq and Afghanistan. That being said, they are neither equipped for, or large enough for, any sort of martial law operations. The mock city is not a new idea, and its primary role is to train in urban combat, something that we have found cannot be solved by mere doctrine and repetition.

My second point is about martial law training in general. I am an infantryman in the US Army. I am currently in the National Guard, and was on active duty (standing army) for about 5 years. Not once, even as a National Guardsman, have I ever received training that resembles anything like martial law. We would have no idea how to deal with a situation like martial law, and would probably just wing it. Of course, that being said, the likelihood of martial law is pretty slim. Negligible I'd say.

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I think this is off-topic. I could claim I have been in the military and have been exposed to martial law training. But what would that prove?

Gary Cook said:

I think this is off-topic. I could claim I have been in the military and have been exposed to martial law training. But what would that prove?

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It's on topic, just anecdotal. There's no rule agains anecdotes, they get posted all the time.

Mick West said:

It's on topic, just anecdotal. There's no rule agains anecdotes, they get posted all the time.

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Ok fair enough but there are plenty of army personal that claim to have had training in that area. Our new friend is infantry and their job is pretty much to just kill on demand. The type of martial law that is part of the original claim doesnt just involve policing in the peace keeping sense. It involves confiscation of things the government has banned etc etc. Infantry are useful in that situation. Especially if they follow orders without questioning. It doesnt take special training to be violent.

Mick West said:

It's on topic, just anecdotal. There's no rule agains anecdotes, they get posted all the time.

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It is anecdotal. I'm just trying to share some of my first hand knowledge and experience in hopes that it will help shed some light on the topic. It is a very stimulating conversation.

DaddyRTO said:

It is anecdotal. I'm just trying to share some of my first hand knowledge and experience in hopes that it will help shed some light on the topic. It is a very stimulating conversation.

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Of course. I hope you didnt take that personal. You was just presenting your personal experiences related to the claim. I just want to balance it by saying other people have said they have experienced different.

I dont like scaremongering so I appreciate this thread.

Gary Cook said:

Of course. I hope you didnt take that personal. You was just presenting your personal experiences related to the claim. I just want to balance it by saying other people have say they have experienced different.

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They don't though. Which is kind of evidence in itself, don't you think? It would take hundreds of thousands of trained troops to enforce martial law in the entire US. Most troops are highly patriotic and opposed to tyranny, and yet none of those hundreds of thousands of troops has spoken up, even anonymously. That seems strong evidence that there is no such training going on.

Gary Cook said:

Ok fair enough but there are plenty of army personal that claim to have had training in that area. Our new friend is infantry and their job is pretty much to just kill on demand. The type of martial law that is part of the original claim doesnt just involve policing in the peace keeping sense. It involves confiscation of things the government has banned etc etc. Infantry are useful in that situation. Especially if they follow orders without questioning. It doesnt take special training to be violent.

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I agree with you that many claim to have training in that area, particularly Military Police. It's more like riot control, but close enough. I laughed out loud at the "kill on demand" part, because that's a pretty accurate description of what I do. Well, what I'm supposed to do anyway. I would disagree, however, with your assertion that it doesn't take special training to be violent. There are two interesting books about this very subject by a LTC Dave Grossman called On Killing and On Combat. It actually takes a good bit of specialized training to make soldiers violent in a focused, disciplined way, which is sort of the point of martial law I guess. That being said, I feel that my two main points were largely ignored. First, we don't receive any specialized training in martial law. Honestly, not even the semblance of it. In fact, even our pre-deployment training (two to Iraq, one to Afghanistan) was largely devoid of anything like this. We focused more on actual combat operations, which we saw little of (in relation to, say, Vietnam), and this has actually been a pretty big problem with our counterinsurgency strategies in both countries. Secondly, my entire point about the purpose of the AWG was completely ignored. It's worth a look.

And as a matter of personal honor, most of us in actual combat roles (not support or logistics), particularly Infantry, Special Forces, etc., find the idea of martial law reprehensible, and further, arrogantly enough, training to that end is something that we view as beneath us.

DaddyRTO said:

I agree with you that many claim to have training in that area, particularly Military Police. It's more like riot control, but close enough. I laughed out loud at the "kill on demand" part, because that's a pretty accurate description of what I do. Well, what I'm supposed to do anyway. I would disagree, however, with your assertion that it doesn't take special training to be violent. There are two interesting books about this very subject by a LTC Dave Grossman called On Killing and On Combat. It actually takes a good bit of specialized training to make soldiers violent in a focused, disciplined way, which is sort of the point of martial law I guess. That being said, I feel that my two main points were largely ignored. First, we don't receive any specialized training in martial law. Honestly, not even the semblance of it. In fact, even our pre-deployment training (two to Iraq, one to Afghanistan) was largely devoid of anything like this. We focused more on actual combat operations, which we saw little of (in relation to, say, Vietnam), and this has actually been a pretty big problem with our counterinsurgency strategies in both countries. Secondly, my entire point about the purpose of the AWG was completely ignored. It's worth a look.

And as a matter of personal honor, most of us in actual combat roles (not support or logistics), particularly Infantry, Special Forces, etc., find the idea of martial law reprehensible, and further, arrogantly enough, training to that end is something that we view as beneath us.

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I am sorry about the way I spoke to you. I dont always know how to get my point across so I just write the best way I can.

It is interesting to note you have not had that specific training, to your knowledge at least, and it does suggest and even evidence that this scaremongering article is not as based in fact as it seems to think it is - that martial law training is not as widespread as being portrayed. Scaremongering doesn't help anybody.

Boy. Given everything that's going on over in the Ukraine, wouldn't it be nice if the US had some sort of training facility that had all of the things the Ukraine has, like train stations, subways, highways, soccer fields, churches and mosques?

Sarcastro said:

Boy. Given everything that's going on over in the Ukraine, wouldn't it be nice if the US had some sort of training facility that had all of the things the Ukraine has, like train stations, subways, highways, soccer fields, churches and mosques?

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Thatd be absolutely wild wouldnt it? Wonder if anyone's ever thought of doing that.

Just saw this really interesting private sector version http://www.guardiancenters.com

one on CNN
http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/30/us/guardian-center-disaster-response-training/index.html?hpt=us_t3

Well, I thought it was cool...until I realized that it means that
now the private sector is also planning a martial law takeover!!!

NoParty said:

...now the private sector is also planning a martial law takeover!!!

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First, they came for our bread...then, they came for our Marshals....oh, wait....you wrote "martial"...'NEVERMIND'...

I find this thread amusing. Many Metabunk.org regulars spent four pages basically saying "Yes they are training in a city that appears American....but it could be somewhere else"...which I will grant is a reasonable objection.

But another very common objection was that training to militarily occupy an American city is OK. Whether or not that is true, the OP only dealt with whether the US Army was doing that training. And they are.

Here is an ad for a similar training centre which is used primarily for good things, such as search and rescue and disaster recovery etc....but from 2:04 to 2:27 it shows US Army detaining some very obviously American woman behind razor wire before handing them over to some obviously American police. Specifically, the police doing the mock apprehension of American citizens interned by the military in this video are the Perry Georgia Police Dept.



Here is a screenshot of the Perry Police at 2:23 in the video:


Here is the Perry Police Dept at 1207 Washington St. Perry Georgia, 31069:

Please remove "debunked" from this thread. Anecdotally, this is happening all over the country. Irrefutably and specifically, it is happening in Georgia. And by "it", I refer to the OP, namely whether the "US Army Trains for Martial Law in US."

Please do not pollute the thread any further with opinions on whether or not such training is OK. That is not the point of the thread. Rather the point of the thread is to determine whether or not such training is taking place.

In the above promotional video for a fake city style training centre run by Guardian Centers, video featuring the Army interning Americans is featured. Case closed.

Is it possible for a person to mistake a "training exercise" for....???

Apparently, it is.

WeedWhacker said:

Is it possible for a person to mistake a "training exercise" for....???
Apparently, it is.

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The OP specifically mentioned training. This obviously is a training excercise. That is PRECISELY the point.
That the US Army trains for martial law in the US is now proven. The "dubunked" tag needs to be removed.

Enter: More blather about the training being OK.

WeedWhacker said:

Geez? A little dramatic music and some editing???
Come on!!!!
I can find hundreds of examples on YouTube of 'dramatic music" to stir emotion.

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I don't care about the music. Turn off your sound if you like. The point is that it it features the US Army training to intern Americans in a fake city. This thread needs to be unmarked as "debunked". It was not debunked. In fact now it is irrefutably proven true.

Hmmm. I must have hit the nail on the head on this one. I just got an "Off Topic" warning from Mick. I guess I too will now be banned.

Libertarian said:

I don't care about the music. Turn off your sound if you like. The point is that it it features the US Army training to intern Americans in a fake city. This thread needs to be unmarked as "debunked". It was not debunked. In fact now it is irrefutably proven true.

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A soldier apprehending a woman is not evidence of anything. Where does anyone say they are training for US martial law?

Libertarian said:

The point is that it it features the US Army training to intern Americans in a fake city.

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No, it shows them training to intern actors in a fake city. Even though the actors and the city are both in the US, the training they are undertaking prepares them to operate in any comparable city, detaining local hostiles.

Since when does training inside the US=training to operate inside the US?

See, by this logic, it's impossible for the US to ever prepare for anything except actions on US or allied soil. You can't train for an assault on Baghdad by assaulting Baghdad - not only are you putting the cart before the horse and going ahead with an operation you may not even plan to take, you're now left unprepared for a future short-warning assault on, say, Tehran.

Let's just take this logic to its conclusion: To train for nuclear war with Russia, you must first start a nuclear war with Russia. You know, we almost did that in 1983 with Abel Archer, and that's pretty much why we started switching to training against fake targets and fictitious countries.

Libertarian said:

The point is that it it features the US Army training to intern Americans in a fake city.

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No, it doesn't.

Libertarian said:

Hmmm. I must have hit the nail on the head on this one. I just got an "Off Topic" warning from Mick. I guess I too will now be banned.

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Off topic because the OP was about a specific fake city.

But now you are just making unsubstantiated claims based on personal opinion. Continuing to do so will get you banned. That's why you get warnings.

Post actual evidence please.

Hevach said:

Training inside the US=training to operate inside the US?
See, by this logic, it's impossible for the US to ever prepare for anything except actions on US or allied soil. You can't train for an assault on Baghdad by assaulting Baghdad - not only are you putting the cart before the horse and going ahead with an operation you may not even plan to take, you're now left unprepared for a future short-warning assault on, say, Tehran.
Let's just take this logic to its conclusion: To train for nuclear war with Russia, you must first start a nuclear war with Russia. You know, we almost did that in 1983 with Abel Archer, and that's pretty much why we started switching to training against fake targets and fictitious countries.

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This is exactly what I said would happen. Posts about the training being OK. My only point is that the thread needs to be untagged as "debunked". I'm not here to discuss whether the training is OK, but only to point out the existince of the training. And thus the miscategorization of this thread as "debunked".

Libertarian said:

That is PRECISELY the point.
That the US Army trains for martial law in the US is now proven.

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How do you know they are training for martial law, and not urban based combat?

Assumptions....based on out-of-context YouTube videos.

Libertarian said:

This is exactly what I said would happen. Posts about the training being OK. My only point is that the thread needs to be untagged as "debunked". I'm not here to discuss whether the training is OK, but only to point out the existince of the training. And thus the miscategorization of this thread as "debunked".

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The point is there's no evidence of training for US martial law. If you have some then feel free to present it.

Mick West said:

Off topic because the OP was about a specific fake city.
But now you are just making unsubstantiated claims based on personal opinion. Continuing to do so will get you banned. That's why you get warnings.
Post actual evidence please.

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The OP referred to one fake city which could not be specifically identified as being American. It had American street signs, but that isn't conclusive. In this case, the Perry Police Dept. participating in taking the interned American citizens into custody places the activity squarely in America. As does the clothing of the interned citizens. There is really no doubt at all. Which is why the thread needs to have the "debunked" tag removed.

Libertarian said:

The OP referred to one fake city which could not be specifically identified as being American. It had American street signs, but that isn't conclusive.

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So what would you suggest, they use Islamic, N. Korean, or the Russian Language instead. Imagine the news then, "Americans are training to take control of N. Korea or Russia". It would cause panic. So they used American street signs because they are in America. It's that simple.

Mick West said:

The point is there's no evidence of training for US martial law.

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Mick, why are you going in circles? There are four pages of very specific definitions of Martial law here. There is also some discussion of Posse Comitatus, etc. which was quite interesting. If you read them and refresh your memory on the definition of martial law, it is very hard to see this training video as anything else. Or are you arguing that this video does not feature the US Army, the Perry Police, and some American Citizens being focibly detained by the Army and then held behind razor wire?