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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Typical usage:


    Firstly, US law enforcement have ALWAYS use hollow-point bullets. They use them specifically for A) Stopping power, and B) to minimize collateral damage. Regular bullets pass through the body leaving a relatively small hole, and do not immediately disable an attacker. They also don't slow down very much, and also similarly pass through walls, and so are much more likely to hit someone else.

    But the key thing here is the numbers. The suggestion being that this is an unusually large number of bullets. The number comes from the company that was awarded a contract:
    So the first thing to notice here is that it's not an order for 450 million bullets. It's a contract to supply, with a MAXIMUM volume of 450 million rounds over FIVE YEARS.

    So really it's a contract to supply up to 90 million bullets a year.

    It's also not just the DHS. It's the DHS and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

    But the thing that this hoax ignores is that the vast majority of rounds fired are NOT fired at people. They are fired during training and practice. A DHS officer going through basic firearms training will fire over a thousand rounds. Officers are also required to qualify with their weapon every year accounting for a few hundred rounds, and will often go though additional firearms training programs, each of which can use over a thousand rounds.

    Here's a DHS slide on just some of their ammunition usage:


    See also:

    [UPDATE - Government confirms it's mostly for training]
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  2. The big gaping hole in the Politifact story, your source for this "debunking" is with the numbers and how they are juggled to provide a supposed logical explanation for this ammunition purchase.

    1. This deal with ATK is NOT the only contract that the Feds have for ammunition. The department also has an open bid for a stockpile of rifle ammo. They are looking for up to 175 million rounds of .233 caliber ammo. The 223 is almost the exact same round used by NATO forces, the 5.56x45mm. There’s also another bid (may be a contract by now) for around 100-200 (I’m going from memory on that number) rounds of 9mm ammo. So when you step back and see that this ATK contract is but one of several ammo purchases that 450 million rounds number, even if it is spread over 5 years is still hefty.

    1. Where the story at Politifact really loses credibility (and I’m not talking about the fact that you can’t comment on the story, a standard Politifact method to prevent any opposing info to their claims) is with how it avoids asking the question about “practice” rounds versus live fire or live use rounds.

    While the training center very well may have used 11 million rounds among its trainees for the last year, these expensive hollow-points as supplied by ATK, would not be for training or target practice but live fire or live use. For target practice and or training you would use ammo designed specifically for that purpose, ammo that is much cheaper than the ATK hollow-point ammo. That doesn’t mean that hollow-points are never used at a target range or during practice but that it’s not practical let alone financially wise to use the hollow-points for target practice and or training.

    Debunk Story - Debunked!
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Is there any actual evidence that they would not use standard ammo in training? What exactly would they use instead?

    Here's some anecdotes:

    And given that they use at least 100 times as much in training as in the field, does that mean there's a contract out there for 45 billion rounds of practice ammo?

    The contract is not for 450 million. That's just the upper end of the availability. The actual amount ordered is likely to be much lower.
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Which would seem to suggest the DHS would use the same ammunition. It would certainly make sense, as different ammo will shoot differently.
  5. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Active Member

    If I may weigh in...though this isn't a very active thread.....

    First....I'd like the see the info about the .223 order. 5.56 and .223 are similar...but not the same. Dimensions and pressures are slightly different. There are also different requirements for waterproofing individual rounds (I believe) and packaging...driving up costs on the military rounds. One reason LE normally chooses .223 is due to the cost. Since 5.56 is indeed normally used by military (and the Geneva rules that go along with them prohibiting HP bullets), for them to manufacture HP rounds in 5.56 might drive up the cost. Military does not use HP except for special ops forces. I know this from actually serving with, though not a member of, SpecOps. LE has different requirements as they are not normally dealing with shooting through barriers and need to be concerned about over-penetration as well. There are numerous other factors. Almost all (if not all) LE agencies rely on the FBI standards for penetration and performance.

    Second.... casual shooters may indeed use cheaper ammunition (reloaded or FMJ) to work on technique or check weapon operation....but serious offensive or defensive practice or qualification is ALWAYS done with the ammunition that is carried on duty.

    Third....there is not that great a difference in price between hollowpoint and FMJ ammunition when purchased in bulk. Yes...a 20 rd box of a premium defensive round may indeed run $20 or more, while a 50 rd white box of FMJ will be the are talking retail for you and me. Gov contracts don't pay retail and neither do they buy the exotic top of the line ammo.

    I have not been able to find exactly what round (other than the bullet) the contract calls for...but certain components cost the same no matter what they are assembled into. Cost savings can sometimes be made with aluminum vs brass casings....but powder, primers, lead, copper, brass all are commodities that fluctuate. In the past few years copper has gone through the roof. Having a fixed price (I hope?) contract in place makes lots of sense. High quantities almost always equal lower per unit cost.

    Ok...guess that's all I have
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  6. Mikenstein

    Mikenstein New Member

    Just to weigh in with regards to law enforcement officers and practice ammunition, in agreement with Gunguy45. I used to associate with a few Washington, DC police officers and in conversation with them, they said that they always used the same ammo that they carried for on duty work. Hollow point, high power stuff. It seemed like a waste to me and I complained to them about gov't wasting tax payer money, and they said the same thing as Gunguy again, practice is always done with the same ammo that is carried on duty.
  7. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    They just placed an order for another 750 Million rounds, the National Guard is Training with foreign Military, They had hardened eastern European Soldiers "policing" Hardin Montana, They are getting ready for Rioting, Civil Unrest, and Martial Law, they know the economy is going to collapse, it's an inevitable consequence of Fiat Currency, Fiat Currency has a normal life span of about 27 years we are currently at around 50 and real debt is 222 Trillion Dollars. The federal govt is broke, every state, County, and City is massively in debt, scranton pennsylvania are paying police minimum wage, Vallejo and Stockton here in California have claimed bankruptcy, not sure which one you want to try to debunk first I'm new here but it's obvious the DHS knows something and is preparing.
  8. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    A link to the source would be good.

    And also some context - if you actually read the order (from the link given in the article above), it is for up to 750 million rounds - not for 750 million rounds. The quantities are demand driven, and the guaranteed minimum order for any given calibre will only be 1000 in any 12 month period, and there is a clause in there that says the Govt is not bound to buy the stated quantities (apart from the guaranteed minimum of 1000 rounds per annum) - see Clause F4.c.2 under "Delivery Performance", page 53.

    As usual, the only people who think this will "cause" any disturbance are those with no idea of the reality of modern life.
  9. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    That is old, 20th century thinking.

    I used to worry about economic collapse. At university in the mid 1980's I wrote a very strong semester economics thesis making the case that Ronald Reagan's massive increases in National Debt would bankrupt America. I used to send emails to my friends asking them to vote against increased debt. I was dead wrong.

    For governments, money does not actually exist. They can literally create it with the click of a mouse and hand it out. Because of this, they can never "go broke". The resulting inflation merely diffuses down to poor people, keeping them poor. This can continue for centuries.

    A great aid in understanding this is the 2011 movie In Time:

    In that movie, "time credits" work exactly like our current dollars. I don't mean somewhat, I mean exactly. They are created out of nothing and assigned by elites in rationed amounts to ensure people keep working and do not reproduce greater than 1:1. It really is that simple.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Met Watch

    Met Watch Moderator

    Would like to mention this - doesn't deal with DHS, but now the Department of Commerce is in on this, and it is specifically cited the order is for NOAA and the National Weather Service.

    Not sure if this claim holds water, although the documents and orders provided look authentic. My only question is, why on earth does the National Weather Service need ammunition?
  11. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    You say this can continue for centuries? there is no historical evidence for that, it cannot continue much longer, Watered down currency eventually becomes next to worthless, even Allen Greenspan said "we can print you as much money as you want, but we cannot guarantee the purchasing power"
    Everything is tied to the Dollar, the Euro is in Shambles, it's the only thing keeping the Dollar Afloat is people are looking for a "safer" place to put their money, but Countries are losing confidence in the dollar, China and Japan are outta the dollar and have opted for Bilateral trade between eachother, and Sanctions on Iran are not working as India has agreed to purchase their oil WITH GOLD, the dollar is no longer the world currency, it's going down it's a mathematical certainty, the only way to protect yourself is to get out of the dollar and preserve your wealth in PM's.
  12. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    Every Federal agency has an internal law enforcement unit or division with a few thugs who occasionally need guns to intimidate people.

    In Government work "nest-building" and power accumulation are the equivalent of increase profits in the private sector. All CEO's want some guns on staff. It makes them feel powerful.
  13. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    As evidence I give you the United States of America whose currency has been in decline for a century.

    As evidence I present to you the United Kingdom whose currency has been in decline for two centuries.

    Now you show me a country that went out of business and stopped taxing people.

  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Probably for their security department:

    And again, it's going to me mostly for target practice (the order is for "ammunition and shooting targets")

  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Actually, it's ALL for the the National Marine Fishery Service, Office of Law Enforcement, North East Division, which is a subdivision of the the NOAA.

    It's all in the order, just took five minutes to figur out what the acronyms meant:

  16. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    Since 1913 the U.S. Dollar has lost 95% to 98% of it's purchasing power the real decline didnt begin until the end of the bretton woods agreement and Nixons finally removing all pegging of the dollar to Gold. It's coming to it's natural end.

    If you mean the British Pound yes it's 317 years old and you view it as a success, but success is relative, The British pound was defined as 12 ounces of silver, so it's worth less than 1/200 or 0.5% of its original value. In other words, the most successful long standing currency in existence has lost 99.5% of its value, it too will need to be replaced.
  17. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    That's what I'm trying to get you to understand. There is no "natural end" to government and their currencies. They don't. I showed you this.

    You don't understand economics, but that's okay. Just know that the "collaspe" you fear is nothing more than a publicity stunt. Read FerFal. Learn how to be happy poor. Watch the video I gave you.
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  18. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

  19. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    I like ferfal, he survived the collapse of the Argentine dollar, so that kinda goes against the whole idea that the American dollar will always be around. And I dont plan to be poor, I dont keep my wealth in paper dollars that decline in value everyday, I keep it in the only True Money, I wonder if you know what that is.
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  21. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    Here's what you should really be worried about -


    It takes only one quarter pound of salt consumed at one sitting to KILL YOU. Just in the Illinois stockpiles ALONE, they will have enough salt to KILL EVERY AMERICAN TWELVE TIMES OVER.

    Potassium Chloride, another SALT, is used by the GOVERNMENT to EXECUTE criminals.

    These stockpiles are located near POPULATION CENTERS so it can be ADMINISTERED QUICKLY WHEN NEEDED.

    Salt is also used as a preservative, in order to keep FLESH FROM ROTTING. Is the government planning for a massive civil unrest, so large they can't BURY THE BODIES FAST ENOUGH?

    Mines are working 24/7 to meet the demand!!!

    Why are the state and local governments COORDINATING stockpiling all this salt? Are they hiding FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INVOLVEMENT?



    it's road salt...

    Get a life.... ;^D
  22. GuitKitty

    GuitKitty New Member

    In the event of a real economic collapse, the only "true money" is going to be food and supplies. Are you stockpiling those?
  23. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    Stockpiling anything will only get you so far. You're basically stuck with the stockpile plus you need storage space and a means of defending it when push comes to shove. The only tradable commodities of value in the event of any major societal collapse or natural disaster are knowledge and skills. Survival skills, among other useful skill sets and knowhow like those found in permaculture, are easily transported, can be used to make useful things, as well as grow, hunt and gather food, and applied to provide the clean water people need to survive. What's in your noggin' will ensure that you and your peeps have a good chance of surviving anything nature or society can throw at you. Could you survive for a year on your own in any kind of environment if you were suddenly dropped off there with just the clothes you're wearing?
  24. GuitKitty

    GuitKitty New Member

    I completely agree, solrey. I was assuming that cheeple was referring to gold or other precious metals when he/she said something about "true money". I was just trying to point out that gold/precious metals will be completely worthless in the event of a collapse. Thanks for making my point better than I could. :)
  25. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Active Member

    And what you have in your noggin won't do you any good if they shoot you before they know what you Cohesiveness of your community would seem to be an important factor.

    Where I live, I would have to guess about 25% are hunters, fishermen, and outdoors types. We also have a good mix of basic skills, more technical trades, as well as engineers, doctors and the like. I'd guess our chances would be higher than an equivalent number of urban dwellers.
  26. solrey

    solrey Senior Member

    You're right Gunguy. Cohesive Community. That is an important factor that I just forgot to include while making a point about "money". I spent nearly ten years living in egalitarian intentional communities. The town and area I live in now is similar to what you describe in your area.

    Right on, GuitKitty.
  27. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    Not true. I have prior arrangements with my physician and automobile mechanic to exchange silver and gold for their services in the event of societal collapse.

    Study "Money" is anything people agree to exchange for value in lieu of the actual items being traded. It could be sea shells, cigarettes, bullets, whiskey, or even entries in an electronic register like Gold and Silver just happen to be particularly well-suited for that purpose.

    If you don't have one hundred dollars worth of Bitcoins, you should. If you don't have a couple thousand dollars worth of silver and gold in small divisions, you should.
  28. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    Right on Charlie, I need to arrange something like that, and also your right truely only Gold and Silver fir the criteria for what money is being Fungible, easily divisible, Intrinsic, and easily transportable, the ignorant who would say Gold and Silver will be worthless see paper dollars decreed by a government as the only thing that is money, but it's not it's a currency BIG DIFFERENCE, I agree with your diversification, I'm not ready for the whole bitcoin thing probably never will but thats ok there's other ways to diversify like ammo, and food storage.
  29. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    When Bitcoin came out a few years ago I jumped aboard and installed the mining software on my computer. I was able to mine 9 coins. Back then Bitcoins were worth $0.25 each.

    I got tired of moving them every time I rebuilt my computer, so I threw them away.

    Last year Bitcoins were $6 each. I set an email reminder to check again in a year to see if the trend continued. I just did. They are now $12 each.

    Adoption is accelerating. In ten years they would be worth $100,000 each.

    Wouldn't it be cool to buy 10 Bitcoins today and have that happen? I've lost $100 at the casinos in Shreveport every fifteen minutes all night long and laughed about it. I'll throw a Ben Franklin on Bitcoins. It's worth that much in entertainment value alone.
  30. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    Bro thats what I keep hearing is that more and more people globally are doing the bitcoin thing, Ok I need to look into it more, just seems like it's labor intensive.
  31. Charlie Primero

    Charlie Primero Active Member

    Yes, do that first. I have all the basic prep stuff covered; genny, water, expensive storable food, rotating fuel, a case each of 9mm, 5.56, and 12ga., candles, etc.

    But after you have the basics covered, do some fun stuff. The odds of societal collapse are very low. Every situation is different, but my cost:benefit ratio requires only basic preps.
    • Like Like x 2
  32. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Active Member

    And your doctor and mechanic will be able to help you how? In the event of a collapse I mean. They won't be able to buy parts or drugs with gold (if they are even available). They won't be able to pay their bills with gold.

    You'd be better off with a big garden and a flock of that will be worth something!

    Bitcoins? Seriously? You don't trust paper...but you'd trust digital cash? And when Snake Plissken kills all the electronics in the world...what will you have?
    • Like Like x 1
  33. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    Not sure of the etiquette on this forum, but I'm sorta a prepper myself, I think your underestimating the importance of relationships like these of course if the dentist is out of materials and cannot get more then everyone is SOL, I doubt we will ever be down to third world status like that but if it did happen having a dentist who will barter is definately a good thing, it's good to have a garden, chickens, AND friends with skills you might lack, I know I'll be p'd off if I have to pull my own tooth, lol.

    The Bitcoin thing I see his point it might be worth it to have $100 - $200 in bitcoins as added insurance, doubt I'll do it though i kinda view that is 3 to 6 ounces of silver I'm missing out on. ok now time to google snake plissken lol
  34. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    Whats "genny", I'm really good on first aid stuff, Got some good long term food storage, PM's, Guns but I could use more ammo, I need to get more short term food storage and water, I dont have anything I wont eventually use anyway so theres no loss, the one thing that is guaraneed is the dollar will decline in purchasing power and the cost of my supplies will rise in the future, so it just makes economic sense to get it while the gettn is good.
  35. Danny55

    Danny55 Member

    Genny = Generator.
  36. cheeple

    cheeple Member

    The govt recently puchased another contract for up to 750 Million rounds bringing the total to 1.5 Billion rounds
    thats 4 rounds for every man woman and child in the country.
  37. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Are you sure that isn't just a reissue of the original 750 million round contract with some errors corrected?
  38. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    sorry - double post
  39. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Don't you worry about their servers getting hacked??
  40. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    More fool them.
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