1. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Recently saw this video (link at bottom of paragraph). I want everyone to know I DO think we went to the moon, this is just an interesting point being brought up by a hoaxer. I just want to know if there's an explanation as to why the flag appears to be swinging in and out of frame. I can't seem to notice any camera movements or zooms, as none of the other parts (LM itself) move in the frame.


    Source: https://youtu.be/p_66cqMQsW4


    Context: This is a video of the Apollo 14 LM a bit before it takes off from the moon, to dock back with the CM. You can see in this video, on the right side of the screen, the flag swings slightly into the frame, then back out, then in, then out, and repeated for 4 times, as if it is being swung by a person or some wind. This, of course, is not possible if both astronauts are inside the LM. The timestamps for the swings are:

    0:54 - First swing in:

    via GIPHY


    1:09 - First swing out:

    via GIPHY



    1:31 - Second swing in:

    via GIPHY


    2:03 - Second swing out:

    via GIPHY


    Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/uoGf3Vl3RrYpG/html5


    3:26 - Third swing in (very slight):

    via GIPHY


    3:41 - Third swing out (very slight):

    via GIPHY


    Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/DSNrrDup7CuGY/html5


    3:42 - Fourth swing in and 3:48 - Fourth swing out (full gif):

    via GIPHY



    For the last swing sequence, you can actually see the flag sort of jiggle as if a breeze is blowing on it. This, as said before, cannot be possible if the LM is about to take off since there's no wind to blow it on the moon. So what is causing this swing effect? I think it must be something with the zoom of the camera, or this isn't actually right before the ascent of the LM, but instead just a video where an astronaut is swinging the flag, but he's not in the frame.

    An explanation by NASA was later given in the video at 7:40, which the creator of the video calls bunk. This is the transcript of the explanation, as well as the creator's response:

    Another clip is showed in the video at 9:35, showing another view of the LM with the flag swinging out of the right frame (at 9:50):

    via GIPHY



    This time, though, the flag doesn't really look like a... flag, but more or less like a camera artifact. The flag seems to melt or fade away, instead of swing as the creator of the video claims it does. NASA's explanation for this anomaly is the same as before, where the O2 coming from the cabin causes the flag to swing.

    This hoax is obviously well thought out, and I can't explain it myself. Feel free to watch the video, I think I gave enough information (this is my first post sorry if I didn't provide enough info, please inform me!). Can anyone explain this? I assume the explanation will be along lines with NASA, but in the video by the hoaxer, he pulls the chart from NASA showing the pressure change going from 10^-7 to 10^-6, which is a very small change.

    What's going on.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Seems reasonable to me.

    That's a change of 100 trillion times, which seems pretty large to me. Can you find and post the chart?
     
  3. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    [Oops] I realized that I mistyped. Meant 10^-6, not 10^6. It's a change of 10 times
    Hoaxer didn't leave any links but here's a screengrab from the video, pressure is measured in torr:

    download.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2017
  4. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Why would the particles not continue to travel in the direction they left the nozzle? Why "in every direction at once"?
     
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    They would travel in an expanding plume away from the LM.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    But these particles could eventually hit the flag if the depressurizing system ejected them in that direction, correct? This is probably what happened.
     
  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, and quite possible regardless of the direction. An ejection of gas would be like a tiny explosion, with a shock wave. Things happen different in a vacuum.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    As the text at 9:00 in the video mentions, there is a crucial difference between a small puff of air on Earth (which will rapidly be blocked by collisions with the relatively dense atmosphere) and a small puff of air into a a vacuum.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Also good point! Can't believe I didn't catch that. Yes, I agree. On Earth the atmosphere will cause drag, but since it's a vacuum, the O2 can travel freely until gravity pulls it down. Nice catch.
     
  10. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    It seems to me each molecule would follow a ballistic trajectory.
     
  11. It's worth pointing out that the screenshot shown taken from the OP video at 9:50 is not from the same video sequence as the first few screenshots. You can tell this because the Modular Equipment Transporter (MET) is not present, which it is at the end of the 2nd EVA. At the end of the first EVA it was parked by the flag, just off screen. There is indeed some sort of image artifact around the flag that can be seen in other mission video of the TV transmission, for example at 01:05:21 in this video



    Here's a photo taken from inside the LM at the end of EVA 1 (AS14-66-9325)

    [​IMG]

    Compared with one taken after the 2nd EVA (AS14-66-9339)

    [​IMG]

    The MET is off screen below the flag, and you can see the shadow of it in the centre of the image. The depth of the shadow in the small crater near the flag and the presence of the PLSS shows it is definitely post-EVA 2 here. Note the orientation of the flag here.

    I'd be interested to see if the video of the flag motion is consistent with it swinging 360 degrees, but I can't get at the video at the moment.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Another interesting thing is that the depressurisation was not the only thing venting gas at the flag. During the checklist run through before ascent one of the things they did was a brief fire of the RCS thrusters. You can see the impact this had on the flag in this sequence of images at the ALSJ, which shows the same photo from my previous post compared with two stills from the 16mm footage:

    [​IMG]

    The RCS firing is discussed at 140:49:50 here

    https://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a14/a14.launch.html
     
    • Informative Informative x 4
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Lukes1040

    Lukes1040 New Member

    I know this is an older post, but I have looked into this claim quite a lot lately.

    I believe this chart is from Apollo 12, not 14. The video shows the flag waving on Apollo 14 8 times, which coincides with the depressurization of the hatch. During this depressurization, they had an issue with Shepard's suit. This caused them to have to open and close the valve 3 times before opening the hatch for the full depress. The waves appear to come from both the rush of gas from the valve pushing it onto screen, and then the flag returning to its previous position off the screen. The last flag waves appears to be from the opening of the hatch. The time on the video matches up with the time on the transcripts on the ALSJ.

    Cold Cathode.JPG Cathode Chart.JPG
    Here are a couple sheets from the final report from the Cold Cathode Gauge experiment showing the depress being picked up by the CCG.

    It does not appear that the flag is going a full 360 from the video that I have seen, but that it coming into screen from the same side as it is exiting the screen.

    If I read up on my fluid dynamics correctly, the gas exiting the valve would be subject to choked flow conditions because of the pressure differential. This gas should also travel in a ballistic trajectory with only gravity to impart any force on it.

    I created a terrible live feed youtube video about this subject, I hesitate to post it here because of the crudity of it, but I guess if anyone is interested let me know and I can post it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  14. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    This is very informative! As for the video, I'd love to see it.
     
  15. Vaeltaja

    Vaeltaja New Member

    Hi. Sorry for bumping this up, but can anyone show where the films are from which the youtube video is created? I've tried to find so much of those without luck.

    There is in NASA website some little similar videos, but with worse quality and fewer pixels. (The flag seem to be removed from NASA video, or added into his youtube video)

    I talk about those "preparing to launch" videos at the bottom of this page:
    https://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/alsj/a14/video14.html#LaunchPrep

    Or is VLC just having problems playing these files? There is, for example, wrong colors.
     
  16. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    my colors are ok with a RealPlayer download. I only skimmed the lower eight vids super quick and didn't see a flag. although @One Big Monkey makes it sound like all this happened after the video available on your page link.
    if you press the transcript link next to the video link you can see the real timestamps.
    I see "decompress" a few time sin the transcripts but I have no idea what they are doing. @Lukes1040 makes it sound like they decompress and then open the hatch... which makes zero sense to novice me :)

    the last two vids on your page though i have a white blob that appeared. and there's no white blob in the hoax video (OP). i'm probably confusing you more. anyway my colors look the same.
     
  17. Vaeltaja

    Vaeltaja New Member

    I think white blob to be a trash bag they threw out from LM.

    But if you look at the noise of the videos separately, his youtube video and those videos downloaded from NASA, I think it's clear that they are not the same video.

    But that's what he is claiming himself also. He is speaking in the video about Hi res JSC clip. And I have no idea where to find this JSC clip. Also, I don't know why the aspect ratio in his JSC clip is different compared to those publicly available.

    Here is a frame I doctored in photoshop from his video. I stacked multiple frames into one with the median stacking mode. By that way, I removed the noise from it to see only the real details.


    [​IMG]

    So did NASA crop the video to remove the flag, or did he add the flag to the video or was there something in the process that made the high-resolution video to have wider aspect ratio?

    I was also checking some of the frames with the forensically tool that allows, for example, comparing noise profiles from different areas of the image. I wasn't able to prove that the moon hoax youtube channel added anything to the video, but I might be wrong with this. https://29a.ch/photo-forensics

    The reason I started doing it is that I was talking with a person who says that the thin vertical line in right proves that the flag is added into the video.

    edit: Also, the conspiracy theorists are claiming that the video was deleted by NASA to cover up this.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
  18. Vaeltaja

    Vaeltaja New Member

    Okay, I realized that the flag is also visible in the videos from NASA website. In file a14v_1361254
    I uploaded this into streamable:

    The flag is visible in 9:04 (the video is for real 0:12:07 long, but streamable has max 10 minutes video length rule.

    Here is a print screen of the flag. [​IMG]

    Although I don't know why the high-resolution videos are not anymore available, I think this is debunked.

    edit: why there in my print screen is y2mate.com link: I uploaded the video as the original .rm file format by using youtube and then with y2mate.com I downloaded it back as a converted version.
     
  19. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    This is a diagram of the cabin [pressure] relief and dump valve on the LM.


    [​IMG]


    The air is passing through a simple tube. In a vacuum, this would release a plume of molecules that would shoot out like bullets in a ballistic trajectory. The molecules would not "suddenly rush into the vacuum with the particles going in every direction at once," as the author of the hoax video says. He's not taking into consideration the differences between a release into a vacuum and into an atmosphere (with drag and turbulence).


    [​IMG]

    I picture the tube as a shotgun barrel shooting out bird shot. There will be a spread. But not molecules spraying out in every direction from the mouth of the tube.


    (Yes there's a cup in this shotgun shell, but you get the idea. Also, a lot of the spread here is from air drag.)

    (I'm not sure this is a tube in the valve. It may be a slot. The result would be the same, though.)



    It's not going to happen as quickly as some people seem to be imagining. I've got to go just now, so I'll try to find more on that later.
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. Your best bet for good quality obes is to search youtube for 'Apollo Flight Journal' and your mission of choice.

    NASA is not the best presenter of its own Apollo resources, even the AFJ and ALSJ sites are run by amateur enthusiasts that NASA just hosts. Most of the best video is culled from Spacecraft films DVDs.

    Youtuber zellco321 has a lot of news broadcast TV footage. Otherwise just search for Apollo [mission number] EVA.
     
  21. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    Btw I took another look at that "shotgun" video. It's actually a tank.
     
  22. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    Specifically, it appears to be an XM1028 120mm canister round fired by an M1A2 Abrams. It’s a really big shotgun.