1. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Recently saw this video (link at bottom of paragraph). I want everyone to know I DO think we went to the moon, this is just an interesting point being brought up by a hoaxer. I just want to know if there's an explanation as to why the flag appears to be swinging in and out of frame. I can't seem to notice any camera movements or zooms, as none of the other parts (LM itself) move in the frame.

    Source: https://youtu.be/p_66cqMQsW4

    Context: This is a video of the Apollo 14 LM a bit before it takes off from the moon, to dock back with the CM. You can see in this video, on the right side of the screen, the flag swings slightly into the frame, then back out, then in, then out, and repeated for 4 times, as if it is being swung by a person or some wind. This, of course, is not possible if both astronauts are inside the LM. The timestamps for the swings are:

    0:54 - First swing in:

    via GIPHY

    1:09 - First swing out:

    via GIPHY

    1:31 - Second swing in:

    via GIPHY

    2:03 - Second swing out:

    via GIPHY

    Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/uoGf3Vl3RrYpG/html5

    3:26 - Third swing in (very slight):

    via GIPHY

    3:41 - Third swing out (very slight):

    via GIPHY

    Source: https://giphy.com/gifs/DSNrrDup7CuGY/html5

    3:42 - Fourth swing in and 3:48 - Fourth swing out (full gif):

    via GIPHY

    For the last swing sequence, you can actually see the flag sort of jiggle as if a breeze is blowing on it. This, as said before, cannot be possible if the LM is about to take off since there's no wind to blow it on the moon. So what is causing this swing effect? I think it must be something with the zoom of the camera, or this isn't actually right before the ascent of the LM, but instead just a video where an astronaut is swinging the flag, but he's not in the frame.

    An explanation by NASA was later given in the video at 7:40, which the creator of the video calls bunk. This is the transcript of the explanation, as well as the creator's response:

    Another clip is showed in the video at 9:35, showing another view of the LM with the flag swinging out of the right frame (at 9:50):

    via GIPHY

    This time, though, the flag doesn't really look like a... flag, but more or less like a camera artifact. The flag seems to melt or fade away, instead of swing as the creator of the video claims it does. NASA's explanation for this anomaly is the same as before, where the O2 coming from the cabin causes the flag to swing.

    This hoax is obviously well thought out, and I can't explain it myself. Feel free to watch the video, I think I gave enough information (this is my first post sorry if I didn't provide enough info, please inform me!). Can anyone explain this? I assume the explanation will be along lines with NASA, but in the video by the hoaxer, he pulls the chart from NASA showing the pressure change going from 10^-7 to 10^-6, which is a very small change.

    What's going on.
    Last edited: May 31, 2017
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Seems reasonable to me.

    That's a change of 100 trillion times, which seems pretty large to me. Can you find and post the chart?
  3. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    [Oops] I realized that I mistyped. Meant 10^-6, not 10^6. It's a change of 10 times
    Hoaxer didn't leave any links but here's a screengrab from the video, pressure is measured in torr:

    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2017
  4. qed

    qed Senior Member

    Why would the particles not continue to travel in the direction they left the nozzle? Why "in every direction at once"?
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    They would travel in an expanding plume away from the LM.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    But these particles could eventually hit the flag if the depressurizing system ejected them in that direction, correct? This is probably what happened.
  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, and quite possible regardless of the direction. An ejection of gas would be like a tiny explosion, with a shock wave. Things happen different in a vacuum.
    • Like Like x 2
  8. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    As the text at 9:00 in the video mentions, there is a crucial difference between a small puff of air on Earth (which will rapidly be blocked by collisions with the relatively dense atmosphere) and a small puff of air into a a vacuum.
    • Agree Agree x 4
  9. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    Also good point! Can't believe I didn't catch that. Yes, I agree. On Earth the atmosphere will cause drag, but since it's a vacuum, the O2 can travel freely until gravity pulls it down. Nice catch.
  10. Z.W. Wolf

    Z.W. Wolf Senior Member

    It seems to me each molecule would follow a ballistic trajectory.
  11. It's worth pointing out that the screenshot shown taken from the OP video at 9:50 is not from the same video sequence as the first few screenshots. You can tell this because the Modular Equipment Transporter (MET) is not present, which it is at the end of the 2nd EVA. At the end of the first EVA it was parked by the flag, just off screen. There is indeed some sort of image artifact around the flag that can be seen in other mission video of the TV transmission, for example at 01:05:21 in this video

    Here's a photo taken from inside the LM at the end of EVA 1 (AS14-66-9325)


    Compared with one taken after the 2nd EVA (AS14-66-9339)


    The MET is off screen below the flag, and you can see the shadow of it in the centre of the image. The depth of the shadow in the small crater near the flag and the presence of the PLSS shows it is definitely post-EVA 2 here. Note the orientation of the flag here.

    I'd be interested to see if the video of the flag motion is consistent with it swinging 360 degrees, but I can't get at the video at the moment.
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Another interesting thing is that the depressurisation was not the only thing venting gas at the flag. During the checklist run through before ascent one of the things they did was a brief fire of the RCS thrusters. You can see the impact this had on the flag in this sequence of images at the ALSJ, which shows the same photo from my previous post compared with two stills from the 16mm footage:


    The RCS firing is discussed at 140:49:50 here

    • Informative Informative x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Lukes1040

    Lukes1040 New Member

    I know this is an older post, but I have looked into this claim quite a lot lately.

    I believe this chart is from Apollo 12, not 14. The video shows the flag waving on Apollo 14 8 times, which coincides with the depressurization of the hatch. During this depressurization, they had an issue with Shepard's suit. This caused them to have to open and close the valve 3 times before opening the hatch for the full depress. The waves appear to come from both the rush of gas from the valve pushing it onto screen, and then the flag returning to its previous position off the screen. The last flag waves appears to be from the opening of the hatch. The time on the video matches up with the time on the transcripts on the ALSJ.

    Cold Cathode.JPG Cathode Chart.JPG
    Here are a couple sheets from the final report from the Cold Cathode Gauge experiment showing the depress being picked up by the CCG.

    It does not appear that the flag is going a full 360 from the video that I have seen, but that it coming into screen from the same side as it is exiting the screen.

    If I read up on my fluid dynamics correctly, the gas exiting the valve would be subject to choked flow conditions because of the pressure differential. This gas should also travel in a ballistic trajectory with only gravity to impart any force on it.

    I created a terrible live feed youtube video about this subject, I hesitate to post it here because of the crudity of it, but I guess if anyone is interested let me know and I can post it.
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2018
  14. nickrulercreator

    nickrulercreator New Member

    This is very informative! As for the video, I'd love to see it.