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  1. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Amen to that Cairenn
     
  2. Tazmanian

    Tazmanian Account Closed

    If his arteries retracted and he's no longer bleeding, what is the guy in the cowboy hat holding in his hand to keep the guy from bleeding out? Either he's bleeding or he's not bleeding. You can't have it both ways.
     
  3. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    Did you check out my link? A Professional explains it.

    I will respond to you when you can discuss what a real medic has to say.
     
  4. Tazmanian

    Tazmanian Account Closed

    ok, if he's stable and not bleeding out, why is the other guy holding an artery?

    Would you like to address the first woman, the one with no injuries? Even if she's smearing blood, where did her welps come from, the ones on her hand?
     
  5. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    What's a welp?
     
  6. Tazmanian

    Tazmanian Account Closed


    welt
     
  7. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    How would welts on her hand fit into a fake victim scenario?
     
  8. Tazmanian

    Tazmanian Account Closed

    [​IMG]

    This is a better photo. After the blast, while she is on the ground, her hand and leg show no sign of injury. How did she get the injuries pictured in the photo where she is being rolled away in the wheel chair?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  9. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    She bled?
     
  10. Miss VocalCord

    Miss VocalCord Active Member

    It looks to me that they are extravasations or bruises, they don't appear right away. There is blood everywhere on the ground where she is sitting, it seems like she is bleeding from both legs, how would she be able to get up with clean hands?
     
  11. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    I ask again what your experience of triage and blast trauma situations is. It is helpful to know so as to ascertain the basis from which you are drawing your conclusions. Anyone with an understanding of a blast area and of the types of casualties will know that there are no constants. Injuries are rarely textbook and neither are responses from those involved. Even with a trained eye it is extremely difficult to gauge what is actually happen and why certain actions are been taken. I will not argue the minute of the trauma we are presented with but will say I have been in a number of bomb blasts (including one at the hospital I was working at and a car bomb that left be in hospital for a long while), and I attended many more. I see nothing unusual in the injuries or the actions of responders in the pictures.

    You have also claimed that these injuries are casualty simulations (cas sim) yet you have been unable to provide details about the materials needed or the time. This is incredibly important. This is only anecdotal but to do the raised skin and depth colouration for the injuries to the womans hands and face would take around 10 minutes for someone experienced. Obviously other injuries are going to take a great deal longer, and you are claiming that many injuries were fabricated in situ. With all the cameras where is the evidence.

    I am far from an expert and only gave a basic grounding in cas sim. Most NCO medics attached to infantry units had at least basic skills in cas sim to make testing and exercises realistic. However I would say that is is nonsensical to suggest that it can be done on this scale, in situ, without anyone seeing the process.
     
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  12. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    You can't see her whole leg in that photo so how can you use it as evidence there are no wounds in her leg??
     
  13. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    You say that is not 'first responder training'... what is it then?

    What does the above statement mean, 'in practical terms' to you?

    No idea what this means: 'the unique needs of children prior to, during and following disasters'.?
     
  14. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member


    Not sure what that has to do with the Ed Chiarini-type actor CT. The claim is that "actors" are used to actually perform the terror attacks and these major events are staged. Not that agencies re-enact or stage attacks for preparedness. My volunteer fire department stages events to rehearse their preparedness. Heck, I rehearse my sales presentations, it makes perfect sense that when one rehearses one is better at what they do.


    Not for believing that a real thing called crises actors exists. You seem to be slightly confused at what they are used for. It appears you believe they take part in actual attacks, not re-enactments for emergency preparedness.
     
  15. Miss VocalCord

    Miss VocalCord Active Member

    It sounds pretty much on how to make a proper emergency plan involving children to me.
     
  16. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member



    I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I'm fairly certain there are terror drills or crisis drills conducted just about every day of the week. You don't believe that the police/military/air force/army/your local fire department etc etc etc constantly PRACTICE? What do you think they do? Sit in their stations and barbeque hot dogs and push paperwork around all day until one day our country attacks, and they magically know what the procedure is from reading it, without ever practicing it?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
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  17. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member


    Your segment, frankly.
    How long have you been a doctor/EMT?
     
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  18. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    100% conjecture. 'Seems to be', 'possibly', the same kind of lingo you debunkers rip at 'truthers' for using. You may as well have not posted at all, honestly.
    Why make an assumption about this guy's personal experience and then ask him questions pertaining to that? If you really want to understand the answers to these questions about triage and blast trauma, maybe you should research it yourself and post something informative instead of derailing?
     
  19. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Yes it is conjecture. How can it be anything else when one was not present?

    I understand triage and Mass Casualty Incidents extremely well thanks for asking. I do recommend that some people read around incident handling and the priorities in managing a terrorist incident. To be informed that evacuation is not a priority shows a lack if understanding at the least.
     
  20. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    Then why ask questions if you know so much? Maybe inform us instead?

    Crisis actors, crisis actors...let's see...where have I seen them before....ohh yeah.
    *warning - seemingly graphic content*


    Remember this? Urban shield, run by Strategic Operations, helping the great folks in Boston (first responders, nonetheless) be better prepared for crisis events.
    Call me an idiot. I know, there's some issues with semantics. 'Ohh, they're not paid, therefore they're not actually actors,' or 'that isn't FEMA, so you're wrong' etcetera
    But these are actors, helping first responders in crisis scenarios. Do these people not exist? Is this some scam?
     
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  21. Miss VocalCord

    Miss VocalCord Active Member

    I don't think anybody is denying crisis actors exist, but Tazmanian is making statements as if he/she knows what is going on based on a few photo's:
     
  22. David Fraser

    David Fraser Senior Member

    Did you not state in another thread that we need to ask questions? That is what I am doing. Claims are been made that the images are in fact casualty simulations, and that triage procedures are not been followed. It is important to know as to the knowledge base such a testimony is given from. I have asked in a number of posts as to how such conclusions are drawn but no reply. Could it be they are just been made up?
     
  23. Josh Heuer

    Josh Heuer Active Member

    Again I have nothing to do with any of that. I simply stated that crisis actors exist. I don't have to prove anything else (like claims they were used in Boston) because I didn't make those claims.
    I hate having to spell things out for people; [...]


    [Edit: Politeness Please]
     
  24. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    I thought we were discussing FEMA training for FEMA personnel here... not 'A course for communities'.

    If it were a 'course for communities', it would have to encompass the entire population and every community as no one knows where disaster may strike. Not much point in 'educating' the Sandy Hook community if the 'disaster happens 50 miles away, is it?

    And if it is of no 'value', why bother in the first place. You cannot have it both ways.

    What about the bus driver (male/female/who knows), and the six kids who escaped and wound up outside Gene Rosen's house, do you think s/he may have attended a FEMA training? Surely Gene Rosen had attended as a FEMA operative and ex psychiatrist? What do you think?
     
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  25. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    It's impossible that this was a drill... do you know how much that would cost? Do you know how long it takes to apply the effects? Where do they get all these actors from? Anyway it has been debunked that there was a drill on the day of the Boston Bombings. Only one guy said there were any such announcements. ;)
     
  26. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    But what does that actually mean 'in practical terms' to you?
     
  27. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member

    [...]

    [Edit: Politeness please]
     
  28. JRBids

    JRBids Senior Member



    Funny, I feel the same way. Who said crisis actors "don't exist"?
     
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  30. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    http://nevadagovernor2014.com/fema-...s-nevada-governor-2014-david-lory-vanderbeek/

    https://hseep.dhs.gov/hseep_Vols/default1.aspx?url=rightTreeDisplay.aspx?
    From the Word Doc


    As for Moulage Kits see:

    http://www.med-worldwide.com/moulage-kits-casualty-simulation-c5471

    [​IMG]
    BTW... I am not saying they did fake it... only that it is possible and should be considered.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  31. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    True.

    Although it never seems to make it into an official report historical evidence indicates that sometimes drills can be redirected or set to go live by small factions of conspirators within the government. In fact, the use of drills is arguably standard operating procedure for smaller factions within the military/police/air force/army/ and those tasked with responding to emergencies and so forth, e.g. Operation Valkyrie.

    There were some similar drills scheduled to run when there was an attempt to assassinate president Reagan:
    But at least those drills were cancelled. Not that anyone would know any different if the drill went live or not.
     
  32. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  33. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Crisis actors?

    Not even very good actors, seems like:


    I see, so the guy with the head scarf was probably the one supposed to look "Islamic," I'd imagine. So he probably didn't play the part of a zombie.

    Youtube comment:
    I'm not sure where one would find videos or evidence of that. But the whole concept of incorporating crisis actors in drills and training exercises actually seems fairly prevalent. (There's probably a problem with military industrial complex training people to be psychopathic and brutal but then expecting them not to rape each other. But I guess that's off topic.)
     
  34. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    I have to say, I think that is a very good link Cairenn. I see the original as being written by a very skeptical but cogent person who is capable of looking deeply at an event and analysing it it in a very perceptive way. There are certainly some very strange anomalies pointed out.

    The 'debunker' makes much of an allegation that the original pictures are edited but does nothing to show this. He then compounds the situation by sticking large black out sections over the pictures he uses to demonstrate his debunking prowess.

    It does not work and further he does not address the anomalies/questions posed by the original poster.
     
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    That was not a DHS exercise. It was at HALO Corp.'s 2012 Counter-Terrorism Summit, which some DHS employees attended. It was just part of the conference, and partly for publicity purposes. It because an issue because the DHS employees attended at government expense.

    http://www.navytimes.com/article/20120916/NEWS/209160313/Security-firm-hold-zombie-crisis-scenario
     
  36. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    In the mid-1960's my dad was in the National Guard. As an officer, he was allowed to take his son to two week summer drill at Fort Hood. TX. Most of the time he was off flying around and I was left on my own to hang around the airfield. They were doing riot control training and some of the men were allowed to play rioters. It looked like fun and so I joined in throwing dirt clods and taunting the soldiers. Yes, I was a crisis actor at the age of ten, over forty years ago.

    The biggest problem with the crisis actor CT idea is how would you cajole these folks into pretending FOR REAL that an incident happened, and how would you control these folks after?
    The ones with limbs blown off, how do you manage that, they have friends and families, do they continue the act FOREVER, and walk around with fake prosthetics the rest of their lives?

    Just doesn't make much sense. Even one who got tired of the charade could blow the whole thing.

    To me, these people promoting this CT haven't really thought it through.
     
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  37. Tazmanian

    Tazmanian Account Closed

    Actors have no past and no future. They are made up fictional charters. They appear for an event and then disappear into the crowd. They were there during the event. You and I were not there, we only got to hear the news story and we believed it. The media are not allowed on the scene, so the only photos we get to see are the ones released by the people staging the event. The actors are not going to come out and say, "I was just acting."

    It's very convenient to have a staged event going on at the exact same time as a real event. You have to pay attention and determine what is being shown to you. Is it the real event or is it the staged event? They are both very similar. There is so much confusion going on by mixing both events, that no one knows what's happening. In the meantime, no one can be held accountable for the real event.
     
  38. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member


    And the thousands of photos that the general public posts.

    Which event are you referring to, for example?
     
  39. Tazmanian

    Tazmanian Account Closed

    Pick your favorite and we can discuss it.
     
  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

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