1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    As a complement to the pre-1995 contrails photos thread, this is the place to upload any instance of contrails seen in airline (or aviation-related) advertising. The older the better!

    DC-8, circa 1959:

    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Loading...


  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    1964 - Another DC-8. Was the DC-8 the start of high altitude jet travel? They seem to be making something of the contrails:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Not an ad exactly, from 1961:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    1957, Flying Magazine:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 3
  6. George B

    George B Extinct but not forgotten Staff Member Staff Member

    Interesting how they promote the stratosphere . . . according to some here . . . they don't fly there . . . just saying . . .
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Stratosphere was a bit of marketing buzz word. It starts at about 6-7 miles up (32,000 to 37,000 feet), round here, so many current high altitude flights are in the stratosphere:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratosphere


    Yet the Boeing 307 in 1938 was described as a "stratoliner", even though it only cruised at 20,000 feet, still well in the troposphere.



    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  8. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  9. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here the artist seems unclear on the concept:

    [​IMG]

    1983 Pacific Western Airlines:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    A.V. Roe Canada1940. airlines of us1945. avroe21949. Kinner. mobilgas 1944.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    mustangs 1944. vultee1941. XB47 1948.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    As a minor digression, I think the last Boeing advert on Jay's post is actually an image of jato or rato (rocket assist takeoff).
    It is a B47 medium bomber. The engines on them produced lots of soot and contrails anyway:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._off_on_April_15,_1954_061024-F-1234S-011.jpg

    Rato or Jato was developed largely by the Germans during ww2 to help launch heavy aircraft and the early jet planes quickly and used jetisonable liquid fuel rockets burning hypergolic fuel (explode on contact) C stoff and T stoff.
    Atado264 blitz:http://www.wwiivehicles.com/germany...234-bomber/arado-ar-234-a-blitz-bomber-02.png
    Me 323 Gigant: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1909.jpg
    http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/lrg1908.jpg

    The two hypergolic fuels are T-stoff: 80% Hydrogen Peroxide with 20% water and C-Stoff : 57% Methanol Ch3OH and 30%Hydrazine Hydrate N2H4.H2O and 12% water so the exhaust is little different to that of a jet engine, CO2 and water and nitrogen gas. The huge exhaust plumes from those German rocket packs are predominantly water condensation.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Danny55

    Danny55 Member

    And also that organisation who, for years, have tried to get kids out into the countryside looking at the natusal world (including clouds), the Boy Scouts.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member


    Mwahaha! The scouts, obvious training ground for the elites of totalitarian regimes.;) http://www.scouting.milestones.btinternet.co.uk/swastika.htm
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

  17. Gunguy45

    Gunguy45 Active Member

    Had to say...all these ads will just be evidence to the chemmies that the airlines are in cahoots with those responsible...and the ads are just a way of getting people used to seeing airliners leaving trails everywhere.

    As to the Aeroflot pic.....looks more like an F-16 maneuver.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    American Airlines has a new look, but their ad campaign is almost certain to be seen in a different light by the CT people, a way which the ad agency could never have even imagined:
     
  19. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Possibly an early depiction of an aerodymamic contrail.
    Popular aviation. June 1939
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  21. Interesting how the stratosphere starts at 30,000 feet near the poles, 59,000 feet near the equator, and extends to 160,000 feet globally. Slightly more interesting how the DC-8's cruise altitude of 35,000 feet means it could only touch the stratosphere at fairly extreme latitudes (but fair enough for an advertising claim!). Considerably more interesting how any SAG/SRM project would be concentrated at lower latitudes (they don't want to cool the poles) where the stratosphere starts at altitudes WELL above the flight ceiling of all passenger/commercial planes. Infinitely more interesting how you latch onto that minor point (which was easy to address) in a thread where there are contrails galore from advertising material that predates the "chemtrails" hoax timeframe by many decades and demolishes the intertwined claims "The white lines didn't persist when I was a child in the 70's. Contrails don't persist, only chemtrails do"

    Just saying ... a bit belatedly.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  22. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    • Like Like x 2
    • Disagree Disagree x 1
  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Cool photo, but we were more looking for old airline ads. Plus this is a rocket motor, so not really what people think of as a contrail. Possibly more of a smoke trail.
     
  24. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    This is neither old nor airline ad that I've just watched on a british TV channel:
    Screen shot 2014-07-06 at 20.01.10.
    Unusually, it depicts aerodynamic contrails from the tips of the wing. There appears to be no youtube video to embed, but here is a link with the video.
     
  25. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  26. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    Agree. Right now I'm looking for old postcards that may depict contrails.
    For example, this one from http://eaglewings-eyrie.com/Postcards10.htm shows three possible parallel trails on the background:
    [​IMG]
    Oldest windmill on Cape Cod at Eastham Massachusetts

    There are more pictures from this site, e.g., another postcard from Cape Cod (both are dated by 1970s):
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  27. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    More VC10 promo graphics.
    http://www.vc10.net/photo_archives.html (http://archive.today/K5vis)
    All credits go to the above site. Much thanks to the respective illustrators, too.


    Dates.....
    First two from "Ranger Magazine", 1965
    vc10_ranger_magazine_1.

    vc10_ranger_mag_2.




    Date unknown (drink coaster).....(but the period of the VC10 was an active passenger jet, in the mid-late 1960's ?)
    vc10_ghana_airways.

    added info...old footage of the VC10 (with contrails @ 00:00:42 thru 00:01:12)...
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
    • Like Like x 2
  28. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    Those are so "Mega"-cool!!! Thnxs.

    The Vickers VC-10....almost looks like a Russian Ilyushin design of that era:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyushin_Il-62

    (ETA): And of course, "In Soviet Union, jet does not make contrails....contrails make JET!"

    ( Homage to "Yakov Smirnov"....an obvious alias!! :cool: )
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
    • Like Like x 1
  29. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    13.

    Question.....and now a devil's-advocate query....
    Is it possible that the illustrators are using graphic "motion indicators"....(i.e. drawn trails or lines behind a moving object to simply suggest movement ?).....or are they in fact drawing contrails because there "are" contrails left behind jets or planes ?

    I'll try to answer this, before the question is asked by someone else. (pre-empting)
    In most drawn cartoon illustrations....such motion lines are found at the edge (or the entire edge) of the moving object....

    If you look at most of the above thread images......the trails are emanating from the engines.......not from the wing tips or along the whole body of the object.





    Fast_aeroplane_with_motion_lines. Simonson Movement line. segar04.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2014
  30. captfitch

    captfitch Active Member

    I think in most of the advertising cases, the actual aircraft is so relatively small that to either draw the eye to it or to fill the void of sky, the trails are there. That, plus the visual inference of speed as just suggested.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  31. GregMc

    GregMc Senior Member

    F0012617.JPG
    Seemed to be an airline poster for Vietnam/Japan co-partnership seen on airport wall, Hanoi
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 19, 2015
  32. justanairlinepilot

    justanairlinepilot Active Member

    Again, Mick. We've had this topic before. There is no stratospheric flight for major commercial airliners. Generally speaking the aircraft are too heavy to fly in the stratosphere as it is too warm. Maybe you'll find a gulfstream jet flying at 50k but it doesn't makes sense because the air is warmer. There is a reason most 121 aircraft are certified to a max of 41k, and fly in the mid 30s (+/- 10k).

    We don't fly past the trope. It's posted on our flight plans for a specific reason.



     
  33. Ross Marsden

    Ross Marsden Senior Member

    I've seen an instance of a B737 climb out in a deep tough of low pressure, burst through the (very low) trope and wonder why the temperature was suddenly ISA +20 and they hadn't reached the target cruise altitude by a long way. So it can happen inadvertently apparently.

    Things eventually came right for that flight, but the crew were puzzled enough to ask a question about it.
     
  34. justanairlinepilot

    justanairlinepilot Active Member

    Wow, I've never seen, or experienced a +20 lapse. The performance of the 737-700 vs. the 737-900 is very dramatic. The 700 carrying far less passengers with the same engines. The only place I could imagine this happening is near the ITCZ. Or maybe the Caribbean.
     
  35. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I think we might have had the conversation after that post though. It's from mid 2012.

    I think there might be a problem of definitions here. But this is not the thread for it.
     
  36. justanairlinepilot

    justanairlinepilot Active Member

    Yeah, you're probably right Mick. I didn't look at the date of the post. My apologies.
     
  37. Graham2001

    Graham2001 Member

    • Like Like x 1
  38. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    Ummm....it has to do mostly with PSID limitations, specific to each airplane's limitations....yes?

    In terms of MAX altitude. Along with weights and performance issues.

    Example...the "classic" B-737 compared to the "NG" B-737. Different 'MAX' Altitude restrictions, based on changes in the construction OF the airframe. Also, engine changes....but the "Classic" B-737 was primarily limited to a lower MAX PSID because of its structural design.

    The B-727? (Even though the same basic cross-section in the pressurized portion of the fuselage?)... Able to go up to a higher PSID (ETA...just realized I have to add this explanation for "PSID"....AND I am sorry, having trouble finding an ON-LINE source to explain the aviation concept of 'PSID". It means "PSI-Differential". It is the relationship to the internal pressure in the airplane cabin, to the external "ambient" atmospheric pressure. : ....the "concept" of the early B-737 initially was to go "lighter-weight", and as a "twin-jet" for short-haul applications, this made sense....back then....SO, the fuselages were built to withstand a LOWER PSID, in order to save weight in construction.

    LATER, the B-737 NGs were "built-up" to be more "beefy" to allow higher altitudes, and keep PSID levels at a point where the INTERNAL cabin pressure was still comfortable for the occupants. New engine technologies helped, too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
    • Like Like x 1
  39. Leifer

    Leifer Senior Member

    Here's another version of the American Airlines ad seen earlier on page 1 here.
    I bought this (and the other, too) from eBay. Mine are not from a flying magazine. I'm not sure of the source magazine, though it is claimed to be from 1957.
    (it is on glossy newsprint paper)

    uvc005.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
    • Like Like x 2
  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  41. MikeC

    MikeC Senior Member

    Other way around the Il-62 is a VC-10ski :)