1. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    I have just come across this device from Steorn at first glance it seams to be the standard free energy scam. but what has interested me is that they seam to be selling devices and most inportentley taking money for them.

    what they are selling seamed to be a UBS charger witch has a battry in it that is trickle charged from there "free energy" device they also plan to do a phone and a few other devices

    they did several videos in witch they do several demonstrations.

    I know enough about electrical engineering to know I do not know enough about what they did to evaluate what he is showing us.

    the full process of this can be followed here http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/ which is a blog by somebody who is following their claims. the links to their websites link back to there facebook page.


    as far as I can tell there are several options

    1. they are a basic scam.
    this was my first opinion of it I mean they are a free energy company of course it is a scam but the way they are behaving is interesting because if they really are taking money for promised devices they leave them self open to fraud convictions if the device fails to function as promised

    2. the device is some sort of chemical cell.
    they claim to produce enough power to trickle charge there battery twice a day. and they claim that it lasts for years so that is quite a good chemical cell even if it is not a free energy device

    3. it is some sort of energy harvester
    they claim it is not but they also say it is "piezoelectric to some extent", so maybe it gathered ambient energy but again if that is what it dose it is producing quite a nice chunk of usable energy for a device that sise

    4. it is actuality a free energy device
    hay you never know

    I would be interested in what the more knowledgeable people here think of this

    (feel free to amend this post to make it fit guidelines better)
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2015
  2. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I have been kind of following Steorn since I first heard of them almost 10 years ago. (They placed an advert in a UK magazine in 2006, IIRC, announcing that they had developed free energy.)

    Since then their claims have steadily shifted and got less ambitious, from having free-energy generators rated at several kilowatts (I seem to remember they were going to donate them to Africa to power wells), down to devices that might or might not be able to charge a mobile phone.

    Initially they made a big show of recruiting an "independent jury" of scientists that would test the Orbo technology, and that they wouldn't ask for money until the jury said it worked. In the event, the jury said it didn't work, but Steorn still asked for money. They even charged €419 to join their "developer knowledge base" - a figure that made me wonder if the whole thing wasn't just an elaborate prank (419 scam, anyone?) :)

    They set up a demonstration in London, near my office, a few years ago, which completely failed.

    The whole thing certainly feels like a scam. Nine years of work to make a phone battery!

    I note this from their FB page:


    So they "don't have the power to volume ratio to support smartphones" - and yet a few years ago they said they planned to have a 1.5kW domestic generator ready by 2013!

    Their product design is pretty cool though :)

    • Informative Informative x 1
  3. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    yes I saw that and that was one of the things that lead me to think SCAM. but now they have moved on to actuley selling a product and that is more than what we usualey see with free energy scams if you are selling a product for 1000 euros and unlike offering memberships or to be partners if you are selling a product you need to have a product otherwise you are committing fraud. they also seam to be giving out a lot of information in there vids and to have actuley actuality produced things.
  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Yes, presumably these things do actually deliver power, at least for a while. Hopefully someone will buy one and do a tear-down and see what is inside.

    I also wondered about the wi-fi harvesting angle. don't know what kind of energy harvesting is possible from wi-fi/radio wave scavenging these days. This article suggests powering a smartphone is a very long way from possible at the moment, although the Steorn phone is a very basic one.


  5. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    aprently their "cells" produce 0.4 watts. that is not a inconsiderable aount of power
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2015
  6. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Would I send a lot of money off to a company that has a decade-long history
    of big promises that are never delivered upon?
    And who ask 1,200 euros for a phone charger...but have a Facebook page in lieu of a real website? Not me.

    Lots of guys on this site have a deeper science background than me...but I have a lot of experience with scams.

    You're right mm1145, by taking money, now, Steorn is making a bold (some would say "surprising") move...
    so it's time to grab the popcorn and watch. I'm very skeptical that their product can do as they claim...over time.
    If I had to wager, I'd guess that they send out a few units, reap a ton of publicity, :cool:
    and then refund the purchasers with some excuse like:
    "Oh, the first batch had a bad turboencabulator in it, but we're working on it...send more development money!"

    Like Trailblazer, these people (link below) want to get their hands on one...and have begun the process:

    I think Michael Ferrier did a nice summary Tuesday, of the current situation, here:
    • Informative Informative x 1
  7. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    On my mind, this is of course an investor scam in its cleanest form with absolutely no doubts. Anyone carefully looking at their past and present claims, and with just a tiny rest of common sense and basic physical knowledge, can see that their alleged free energy device is fraud. Myself I wondered what their exit plan is, and came to the following conclusion. Of course, I may be wrong, the inventive minds of con artist never stop to amaze me with new and new tricks, so perhaps they will come with something new, but for now I see the following two possibilities as the most probable:
    1. Although they take orders, they may never start taking money and delivering the product.
    2. After a few weeks of waiting (and trapping new naive investors in the background) they will deliver products that do not work, that they will fully refund.
    I am persuaded that in both cases they will blame a faulty batch of cells or some other mishap, will ask for some patience before the new batch is ready, or they will tell that some more R&D is necessary to fix the problems. They will then refund all who paid (except the investors, of course), and the fixing will be going on for years, just like it was the case until now, and just like all other similar con artists use to do (Andrea Rossi with his eCat is an excellent example of this behavior too).

    I reject the idea that they would run away with the money of the direct customers. That's uninteresting peanuts for them. Already in the years until know they allegedly managed to get investments of at least 20 millions of euros, so changing identities and going into hiding is not an interesting option for them. What interests them are investors who want to give them money for further development, or for dealership or licences. And with the current publicity, and all the celebration in the free energy community, the number of investors will raise exponentially. A sucker is born every second.
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
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  8. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    what is intresting is they claim to be getting a constent 0.4 watts from their "cells"
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 10, 2015
  9. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    Yes, we're very much on the same page here.

    Initially I wondered why they would do this (offer for sale) now...seemingly endangering their long-time cash cow.

    But look at all the marvelous free publicity/exposure they are getting!! It's genius.

    And enthusiastic new investors will certainly forgive the unfortunate bad run of turboencabulators in the first run...
  10. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    Yes, sorry for repeating more or less what you wrote. It was not posted yet, when I begun writing my text :)
  11. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    I think this is what intreges me most about this they have taken a big bold step of going "to market" rather than seeking investors. but they do not have a web site or seam to realise what a world changing thing this would be if it where not impossible.

    as I said this triggers all my scam seances but somewhere along this it seams a little odd.

    anybody gone over the tests they show?
  12. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    That's exactly what they want to achieve. They pretend not needing any investors, so that the investors come alone to them, and push them their money themselves "against the will" of Steorn. That's the classical modus operandi of every scammer. They rarely ask you money directly, they manipulate you to give them the money in your own free will. And the investors are then often even happy they managed to persuade them to take their money.

    Anyone can make as many similar "test" YouTube videos as you want. And if you look at YT, you indeed find thousands of free energy videos demonstrating 100% guaranteed free energy devices. Electret showing a voltage on a multimeter or on an osciloscope? Yes, it exists. Pulling constant current from it and charging a battery with it? Sorry, it does not exist.
  13. Sounds expensive for free energy.
    • Agree Agree x 2
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  14. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    It would be nice to think that someone else here types as slowly as I do. :)
  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    They used to have a big flashy website at www.steorn.com, but that now redirects to Facebook.

    Here is what it looked like in 2007:



    This was the SKDB (Steorn Knowledge Development Base) from the site in 2009:


    They took in lots of investment. I seem to remember reading that it was something like €3 million. I will search for a cite.
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Actually they allocated nearly €8.4m worth of shares to investors in 2007, after their initial announcement:



    The latest company reports for Steorn can be found here: https://search.cro.ie/company/ListSubDocs.aspx?id=330508&type=C

    but you have to pay a small fee to access them.

    There also appear to be two other related companies:


    The "MK Brazil" where the Steorn Orbo Trust is registered is a firm of accountants:

    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The key equation to remember here is:

    Watts = Amps * Volts

    USB connections are 5 volts, so a 2.1 amp USB connection is a (2.1 amps * 5 volts) = 10.5 watt output. That's the wattage of an Apple iPad charger. It's also the exact same spec as a Griffin Powerblock, That can charge an iPad to 80% in 2.5 hours.

    0.4 watts for 24 hours is 0.4 * 24 = 9.6 Watt hours.
    2.1 watts for 5 hours is 10.5 Watt hours.

    So the numbers sound right for a phone/table charger. The only question is are they actually getting a 0.4 watt trickle charge?

    I suspect they are not. I suspect they simply have something like a portable phone charger (or two) shoehorned into that case, and they just charge it up when they are alone, then show it charging things when demonstrating it.

    They are selling the O-cube for 1200 Euros ($1300), and say:
    So basically nobody is going to buy one (you can buy an 0.5W solar panel for $7, a 27 watt solar charger for $100, or simply plug your phone into the wall), and if they do actually ship them, they have already said it's a 25% failure rates, so they can just ship one to you with the batteries charged, then when it "breaks" they will ask you to ship it back, then they will "repair" it (charge the battery) and ship it back to you. But I doubt it will ever come to that.

    Besides the revolution in physics required for this to work, the most telling thing is that they have not demonstrated the 0.4 watt output. That should be a pretty easy demonstration to do and have verified.
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2016
    • Informative Informative x 2
  18. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    So far, it seems like most of the orders will be from people who just want to open it up and see what's inside.

    At which point the scam (if it is) would surely be exposed pretty quickly.

    At 900 quid, I won't be following suit, but if I was an independently wealthy retired video games legend I'd have ordered one by now. (Just saying ;) ).

    (Don't worry Mick, I don't really expect you to give Steorn $1300 in order to smash their Orbo thingy open!)
    • Funny Funny x 4
  19. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    yes my thougth was that it would be supoer easy to hide somthign cheety in that big box but it is not the box they are testing in the clips it is the "genrator" it's self.

    I am afride I do not know about how things work but there cailme that after shorting for a long time it bounched back (that is demonstrated) how dose that stack up with the way lit-ion battryies work? what about the rest of what they did they seam to be responding on there facebook page what would you sugest as a demonstratoion maybe they will take it on board or at least we will see how they respond (come on lets poke the bear!!)

    just to make it clear I do not think they have done what they claime but I am intreged by what they are doing as
    Trailblazer says 1000 euros is too much for any amature person to get one and take ti apart but it is well with in the research budget of any mildy intrested group and sevral are allready doing that. (meta bunk kick starter anyboddy? :) ) and what they are proposing is to radicle for anyboddy to ignore.

    that brings up another intresting qiouestion of consumer protection law they are putting them selfs on very very thin ice here. if they ship them and somboddy opens them and it is obviousley a fake they can get heavley sued? somboddy who knows the law corecet me

    so they must have a plan as what to do next. my suspision is it will be on the lines allready sugested. just derlay shiping and not take mony whaile using the publisity to get more backers. but this seames a bit far for that they are going all in on this scam. and they are claiming to have 6 aces at least. this is weird.

    (apoligises for my bad english here I am serviley dyslexic and tyoping this on a device with no spell checker will corect later if I get a chance)
  20. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    As stated already above, I am sure they absolutely do not intent selling any working devices at all, and do not have any, so they can claim any parameters they want. All they need is to give the impression they have a working device on the market to get big money from investors. And seeing the buzz on the web about it, I bet investors are already racing who gives them more. Already with their previous claims of magnetic motors (which were even less credible than this latest scam) they managed to assure at least €8 millions (according to Wiki), perhaps over €20 millions (according to BoingBoing) and perhaps even more, so it will not surprise me if they double that sum.

    They have set the unit price high, because they do not want to sell any devices at all anyway. Sooner or later they will refund all who bought a device (if they take their money at all). Perhaps they will publish some fake customer testimonials (but perhaps not), will apologize for a lot of faulty devices, refund them, and promise quick fixing in a few weeks (which will turn into years). In the meantime they will assure plenty of investor money, just as they did until now, and those will not be refundable. Most likely it is already happening.
  21. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    An interesting calculation from the forums of the EEVblog electronics enthusiasts community...
    • Like Like x 2
  22. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Senior Member

    Good to know the spirits agree that this is a scam.
    • Funny Funny x 2
  23. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    I suspect a medium would be very good at spoting a scam. a sort of set a thief to catch a thief
  24. Gridlock

    Gridlock Active Member

    A quick look at Steorn Limited via Companies House shows a company with net assets of €-1m, long term liabilities of €20m (those investors?) and €700K cash on hand, all in 2012 mind.
  25. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I may not have €1200 for an Orbo, but I can stretch to €2.50 for the latest annual return.

    Out of an authorised share capital of €1,000,000, the issued share capital is only a little over €1,300. But the investors appear to have paid in more than €17.6 million.


    I am certainly no accounting expert. Can someone explain why investors have paid €17.6m for shares with a nominal value of €1300? Steorn appears to have set the nominal value per share at 1 euro cent, meaning that it can issue 100 million shares. It has only issued a tiny fraction of that number so far.

    Edit: I have read up on this and it seems that the nominal (or par) value of the shares is essentially pretty meaningless these days. What matters is that Steorn has issued almost 130,000 shares at a price of around €137 each (as well as some cheaper A shares).

    The document lists 7 directors and 37 shareholders (of whom three appear on both lists).
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  26. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    There's also the "Steorn Nominees" company. I thought they might have some cash squirrelled away over there, so I paid €2.50 for these latest accounts. Turns out I paid more than the current assets of the company :D

    • Funny Funny x 2
  27. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    like I said what I find ingesting in this scam is the way they are going about it. unlike the guy over here


    they are not claiming to have "unidentified backers" or that they have some previously suppressed nanotechnology. or that they need more advanced research (now they where claiming that earlier). or even that "big energy" is ganging up on them. or that you need to fly out to them and pay to see a demo all of witch we have see in "free energy" scams before

    they are claiming that they have things nearly ready to ship and are taking orders for them (the nearly ready to ship is what makes me sure it is a scam). they are acting in most respects like a small company with a product to sell

    they are even saying that they expect people to pull there products apart to see how they work rather than trying to stop people from doing that.

    now admitted if I was they I would have taken the first 100 or so of there generating cells and sent them to various university engendering departments with the "hay look at what i made" message but I am not them.

    seams they are still going all in on this. they are sending out Teams and conditions and they have another vido up this time showing them shoting the "cells" for half an hour



    (I can not get the vid to embed can somebody fix that)

    can somebody with engineering talent do a look at what they show?

    I have set reminders for early feb in my calender to check up on this again see what excuses they have come up with as to why the world has not been turned upside down
  28. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    Those T&C are shooting red flags everywhere...
  29. Balance

    Balance Senior Member

    The video mentions another video showing how you can re-create your own generator but I can't find it to determine what their energy device is made from exactly, though I'm suspecting it's piezo technology they're using.
  30. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    I am sorry, but I am afraid you are wrong. I believe they do not use any piezo, nor any other technology, they just use smoke and mirrors, nothing else.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2015
  31. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    I, too, remember when they first came out. Seemed like a scam then. I can't believe 10yrs later and we are still talking about them. Either there is something there or there is not. If not, they are amazing shysters.
  32. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    Why would they stop with the scam when it works so well? Making €20 million over 10 years out of thin air is not such a bad result after all, so why would they stop coming out with new claims again and again when they can always get enough new investors giving them money? Scamming is a life commitment. Once you start, its hard to stop. Most crooks won't stop even after being convicted and imprisoned (Andrea Rossi could write books about it).

    AFAIK Steorn was not even formally accused until now, so there is no reason not to continue with their hoax for couple of decades longer. They won't steal the customers (they are crooks, but they are not fools), they will get money from investors, and will take care that they are well covered with their terms, so that the investments are not easily recoverable. This is their real miraculous money machine, not the the Orbo hoax.
  33. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    It's been over 2 decades since Bower & Chorley revealed their crop circle hoax,
    but it was just too much fun nonsense for folks to let go!
  34. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    We've been here before.

  35. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    so it seames they are keeping going they even have an online store now


    so they have now taken mony for a product is there a lawer in the house but in my mind they eather have to cought up a product that dose what they have claimed or give a refund. they can not keep pepoles mony without being done for fruad.

    I know it is imposible for them to have what they calim to have but I am intreged by how all in they are going for this. I look forward to the end of jan to see how this plays out
  36. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    I continue to watch the Orbo scam closely, and am looking forward to see how it develops in the next few weeks. I would wish that all involved scammers finish in prison, but am afraid that, as it is often the case, they will get away with the money of naive investors unpunished.

    What I find strange, is seeing again and again speculations that Steorn may deliver some at least partially working devices, and that these speculations come even from the camp of skeptics. Most of them speculate that Orbo is an energy harvesting device. I am afraid that those who expect that such an amount of energy (continuous 0.4W) can be harvested from the ambient energy, would be greatly disappointed, knowing how much ambient energy is really available in our surroundings under normal conditions. Those values are nowhere close to watts, nor millivatts, but rather in the range of hundreds of nanonwatts/cm² (seven orders lower than watts!), or in best case around a single microwatt or two per square cm. I warmly recommend reading the following document very precisely describing available solar, thermal, RF, and acoustic/vibrational ambient energy, with some real-life examples of available ambient RF energy levels in Tokyo and London.


    Read the PDF for the full details and explanations, but just to give those dreamers some idea, I extract some numbers here. By distance the highest ambient energy comes in the form of solar energy (100 mW/cm²). Unlike solar, the thermal energy is available round the clock, but only reaching 60μW/cm² (additionally it is quite inefficient to harvest it). And ambient RF (all frequencies combined - FM, analogue and digital TV, wifi, ...) ranges between 0.2nW/cm² and 1μW/cm². Vibrations and acoustic energy can reach 200μW/cm³. Those are levels of the available energy, the harvestable energy is another order or two (in case of acoustic energy) lower than that. You would also need huge antennas for collecting FM frequencies, so only a smaller part of the RF spectrum could be harvested with a device of the size of the monkey Orbo box.

    Then there is also the possibility to harvest energy radiated from AC power lines, but then again we are in the range of around a single mW, when in direct proximity of an AC conductor (read for example this PDF for more details: http://users.ece.cmu.edu/~vikramg/docs/hotemnets11.pdf)

    So although ambient energy harvesting is possible and indeed used in some applications for powering low-consumption sensors or simple electronics, the average levels of ambient energy are nowhere even remotely close to the levels claimed by Steorn.
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
  37. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    just because you can be skeptical dose not mean you can not be hopefull as well. and as a usuley skepticle person I feel I have a duty to be skepticle of my reaction to automatilce dismiss this as a scam.

    my intrest in this is in the fact they are now takeing mony. the last pepole who sold devices that did not work based on Pseudoscience went to jail for a long time. as I have said before there is a big diffrance between the sort of "seeking investors" or selling herbal suplements with disclamers on the bottom and selling a device with a unambugious claim. and as you have said he has been round long enought to know the diffrance.
  38. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    There is nothing wrong with keeping a hope and staying open-minded, however it should not prevent people from checking facts. Trying to excuse Steorn by telling Orbo is an ambient energy harvesting device is simply nonsense, because there is far not enough ambient energy available, even if you combine all of its types together. To check that fact, it is enough to type a simple phrase into a search engine, so posting claims about Orbo being possibly an ambient energy harvester, on public forums, is simply wrong and only helps the crooks to trap more naive investors, who may start to believe it is finally possible, after all.

    People behind Steorn do not risk any prison, because they do not intend stealing money of end-customers. They will either not ship any devices at all, or recall them as malfunctioning, and will refund all. Their hope is that they will get enough of investment money in the meantime, so they will try to delay the end as much as possible by all the means, just like they already do - A) the product won't be available before 6-7 weeks, despite that they claimed already in October that they had thousands of boxes waiting for them in a container at the terminal, B) the product is sold out despite not a single one was reported as shipped, C) no user testimonial was published despite they allegedly gave samples to testers already about two months ago, ...
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
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  39. mm1145

    mm1145 Member

    *puts on devails advicots hat*
    they have good explinations for all your points.

    A) they have never changed there ship date it has allwasy been mid to end jan.
    B) they have sold all the ones they had on hand and have not placed another order whaile they are processing the funds fomr this one. and what they said is they had thousands of the battries not assembled devices.
    C) yer I got nothign here. exepct to say that there are no user testermonails anywhere maybe they are just not the sort ot use this sort of advitising mehtord

    *sorry I can only keep this up for so long*

    they have allready taken pepoles mony. the person on http://dispatchesfromthefuture.com/ has had his payment accepeted so this is allready further than pepole where saying they would go before it falls apart.

    maybe this is it maybe they are playing. a massive intrest harvesting scam? take 1000 x 1000 euroes. sit on it for a month getting intrest and then give it back? they are taking a massive risk taking pepoles mony I am sure somboddy can sue them for this.
  40. txt29

    txt29 Active Member

    You still do not seem to understand the purpose of the scam. As alredy written many times, they are not at all interested in the money of the orders. That's just an uninteresting bargain, and they would face the law with an almost absolute certitude. An 'interest scam', you suspect, is even less credible (that would not even pay back the cost of the empty dummy boxes). Practically all these free energy scams (Steorn, Rossi, Yildiz, and hundreds of others) go for money of investors, or are selling sales licences. When done properly it is unpunishable, and the money they harvest are several orders higher than what they could get from the fake product sales (millions vs thousands).

    Just have a look at their history - during the 10 years they took over 20 million of euros from investors, giving them nothing more than promises. However, I consider Rossi a much more skilled and more successful scammer. Only since he created Industrial Heat last year, he managed to rip investors of some $60 million. I do not know how many millions he got previously during all those years, but it was certainly a nice sum too. Besides it, his scam is much less transparent than that of Steorn. He manages to have frequent interviews in media, including some high-profile ones, he managed to fool or bribe a group of scientists so that they gave him a positive report, other scientists are in doubts if he does not have something after all, and especially he managed to persuade several investment funds to give him all those millions.

    I am still curious how many millions Steorn manages to get from investors in this latest round. We will have to wait a few months before reports about their finances are updated.
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2015