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  1. Morty

    Morty New Member

    Australian 60 Minutes recently ran a story claiming to locate the very spot from which a Russian made missile was launched to down flight MH17.

    60 minutes story here (12 minutes): http://www.9jumpin.com.au/show/60minutes/stories/2015/may/mh17/

    Robert Parry has written an article claiming that the final "slam dunk" photographic evidence offered by 60 Minutes doesn't match the scene as claimed by 60 Minutes.

    Robert Parry article: https://consortiumnews.com/2015/05/18/fake-evidence-blaming-russia-for-mh-17/

    Verdict: I don't know enough to say, either way, but seeing as things are so slow here at the Metabunk MH17 forum, I'm willing to endure a scolding for this lazy, non-complying OP to see if any sharper minds out there have an opinion on this, one way or the other.
     
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  2. jonnyH

    jonnyH Active Member

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  3. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    This seems to be the main claim -

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    He didn't really prove much.
     
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  4. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    I haven't looked into these claims in detail but I can easily believe that those screenshots show exactly the same place. A lot of people get confused by the massive effect that changes in camera position and, especially, focal length, can have in the appearance of a scene.

    For example, these three pictures all show the same house:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    upload_2015-5-22_10-39-46.


    From telephoto to wide angle (and obviously a big change in viewpoint from the first one).
     
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  5. Cairenn

    Cairenn Senior Member

    The mountains don't even look real similar and they look to be very different distances from the house.
     
  6. Morty

    Morty New Member

    Thanks for the replies. I'm surprised Parry is willing to be so sloppy. I guess he's just saying what his audience wants to hear.

    I'd be interested to know if anybody sees any contradictions between the scenario outlined by bellingcat/60 Minutes and the accepted wisdom here at Metabunk regarding the facts of flight MH17.
     
  7. Mi3

    Mi3 New Member

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  8. Lisa P

    Lisa P Active Member

    I'm going with Parry at this stage. I watched the 60 mins program on Sunday and immediately didn't buy their story due to weak evidence and jumping to conclusions. I had a quick look at the photos and am not going to waste a lot of time but it hasn't convinced me.
     
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  9. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    I wouldn't call 60 minutes good journalism by any standards (it's generally that awful modern style where the reporter and their experience is considered the star of the story), but I doubt they fabricated any evidence to make the segment.
    Didn't they pretty much just gather and repeat all the evidence that was being discussed on the internet when it happened, or did they have something new to add?
     
  10. Mi3

    Mi3 New Member

    So you really think those poles from original BUK video and from 60min are not the same ?

    [​IMG]
     
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  11. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    There seems to be quite a few logic flaws in the Parry piece. Lets start with this one.

    It seems to me that people would be more likely to be looking for and photographing equipment on the move after MH17 was shot down than before. They may not of even known what a BUK looked like the day before the incident - why bother taking pictures of military equipment on trucks?

    The argument seems to be appealing to hindsight.
     
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  12. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member


    I had concerns about the open nature of the field when the imagery first came out. But if you look at post #2 you can see that the photo was taken with a long lens from some distance away and the "forest of trees" is actually a foreshortened view of the scattered trees. Given the tension at the time it makes sense that a photographer would not be standing right next to the road, especially if they were trying to get candid/clandestine shots of military equipment.

    As for Parry making an issue about the video of the correspondent in the open field, it is a red herring. It would not make sense to set up a correspondent shot from several hundred yards away so that the viewpoint matched the BUK photography - the audio would be problematic.
     
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  13. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    Here is my theory:

    Russians provide some basic training on BUKs to some Cossacks.
    Russians provide a few BUKs to shoot down Ukranian transport and supply planes.
    Poory trained Cossack turns on his BUK in independent operation mode before the full array is in place with IFF capability.
    Cossack shoots down MH17 thinking it is a Ukrainian supply plane and he will be the hero of the day.
    Russians take the guns away from the children within 24 hours.

    The last part is geopolitical...
    The West does not want to start WWIII over it.
     
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  14. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    It is interesting that the Luhansk billboard car advert was later photographed with part of it torn off.

    upload_2015-5-26_19-16-29.

    From

    http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17...buk-missing-1-missile-driving-towards-russia/

    [​IMG]

    The torn area just happened to be the area where the Russian Ministry of Defence claimed that the car advert carried an address in Krasnoarmeisk.

    [​IMG]

    The Russians have never retracted their claim of Krasnoarmeisk.

    They still have the transcription of the press conference on the Russian UK Embassy website.

    http://www.rusemb.org.uk/press/1865

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
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  15. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    The banner which was torn does not match the graphic: note that the phone numbers are different. Bogdan Auto has numerous locations across Ukraine.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    The phone number on the billboard is (0642) 31-10-16. Googling that phone number brings up this address on the Bogdan Autocentres website: http://bogdanauto.autocentre.ua/bogdan-autocentres.html

    upload_2015-5-26_20-51-32.


    The address is г. Луганск, кв-л Ленинского комсомола, 1В.

    Transliterated: Leninskogo Komsomola 1B, Luhansk.

    Luhansk, not Krasnoarmeysk.

    It's impossible to read the text above the phone number on that photo, but it appears from the length of the words that it could well say "Ленинского комсомола 1В":

    upload_2015-5-26_20-58-43.


    Edit: the full image confirms that that is the address:

    [​IMG]

    https://www.metabunk.org/data/MetaMirrorCache/4ece2b117da2d8226c0f04f08c649643.jpg

    Translated Russian text in above graphic:

    (left) What "nanotechnology" allowed this address to be read as Krasnoarmeysk? :)

    (right) This billboard has the address on it in plain view. (literally "the light of day and the address on it")

    I am still unable to get the 60 Minutes video to play, so this may be addressed already in the video?
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2015
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  16. David Coulter

    David Coulter Active Member

    I get suspicious when someone like Parry slightly modifies the meaning of quotes.

    He says:
    But the story says:
    That is a subtle misrepresentation of what Der Spiegel reported but there is a very big difference between an indication of something and conclusive evidence.

    ....my emphasis....
     
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  17. Mi3

    Mi3 New Member

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  18. TEEJ

    TEEJ Senior Member

    Nice work. I agree. Looks like the Russians just ran with the social media claim of Krasnoarmeysk. Translation of that
    original post on Facebook. You would have thought that the Russians would have double-checked and at least attempted to geo-locate the Krasnoarmeysk claim from the video? All very strange and leads me to believe that it was a deliberate attempt by the Russian military/intelligence to muddy the waters.

    upload_2015-5-26_22-51-56.

    https://www.facebook.com/KNNUK/posts/735639363159197
     
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  19. Mi3

    Mi3 New Member

    Try Here :

     
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  20. Rob

    Rob Member

    Bellingcat presented a compelling argument that not just 60 Minutes Australia DID record their images in the right place in Luhansk, but also that the video of the BUK with the missing missile was indeed recorded at that very same location :

    https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-...n-in-depth-analysis-of-the-luhansk-buk-video/

    So Robert Parry's argument that 60 Minutes Australia "faked" evidence (and later accusations by Robert Parry of "fraud") are entirely without merit and entirely unfounded.
    Meanwhile, Robert Parry has not presented ANY evidence himself, other than a mis-interpretation of perspective, as nicely explained in 'Trailblazer's post above.

    Mick, What kind of evidence do we need to present so that this thread can be flagged as "DEBUNKED" ?
    Or is there a category like "UNFOUNDED" or "SLANDER" or so ?
     
  21. Pete Tar

    Pete Tar Moderator Staff Member

    You'd have to summarise the points/counter-points in a post. Then they could be edited in to the opening post.
     
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  22. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i did have alot of trouble following the thread because the pics were spaced out, the names were all funny and i dont know where any of those places are on the map or the story behind the russia billboard story.