1. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    Breaking News

    A gun man has attacked two Mosques in Christchurch New Zealand during Friday prayers and murdered at least 49 men, women and children. The shooter live streamed the event on social media.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-47578798

    Needless to say some of the sicker puppies from the Conspirasphere have come out screaming all the usual tropes such as false flags, for 'reasons' and blaming everybody from the NZ government, to various Muslim groups looking for sympathy to the good ol' NWO.

    eg...
    (Youtuber [​IMG]PayDroV)

    Footage of the shooting is being removed from social media, but sadly appears to be being mirrored as fast as it is being removed
     
  2. Its just too sickening; this time I wont dive into this horror to get more information.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. *sigh* even when I try, there is no use to. rush limbaugh cant help himself, as usual:
    and this special trump-buddy, pastor rodney howard-browne:

    goodgrief.

    same old shit as ever.

    sources:

    https://www.patheos.com/blogs/progr...r-calls-new-zealand-terror-attack-false-flag/


    Source: https://mobile.twitter.com/rhowardbrowne/status/1106562357512339456
     
  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I think every single person, on the Left or the Right, who even brings up politics in such tragedies before the victims are even laid to rest! should be ostrasized from society as clickbait.. what's a polite word for 'whores'?.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    [...]

    @deirdre the ultimate in lack of respect is "crisis actor"
    this is how de-humanizing the belief systems of some of the people we deal with on this site can get
    I just mistyped "de-humanizing" as "demonizing" and now I wonder if that is actually more accurate
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 17, 2019
  6. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    It's uncomfortable to realize that there idiots on any team that has self-selected members: no matter which issue we are debating, there's likely to be a "total lunatic nutjob" out there agreeing with us. Since we see our side of the issue as reasonable and rational, this realisation may be disconcerting. It also raises the question: does the style of debate we are fostering contribute to the actions of our lunatic fringe? Do exaggerations and overstatements of our case and ad hominem attacks and slander of our opponents support fringe actions with severe, real consequences?

    Cognitively, it is much easier to deny that a lunatic fringe exists on our side, and simply attribute any evidence of it to "false flag operations", or even worse, deny it even happened: catastrophic events are staged by "the conspiracy", and eyewitnesses, the injured, survivors, friends and relatives of the dead are just "crisis actors".

    It is hard to accept that these "lunatics" may not be lunatic at all, but merely people who bought into our disformation campaign wholesale, who took everything we told them for the gospel truth and are now acting reasonably on these unreasonable beliefs. It means that meeting a catastrophic event with more slander and reality denial exacerbates the problem that led to the crisis in the first place. It means that if we want to stop people to act like lunatics, we have to start being reasonable ourselves.

    In a black-and-white world, if we failed to take someone running amok on our own values as a wake-up call to examine our own rhetoric, we would not be acting reasonably:we'd be "lunatics" ourselves. Thankfully, the world is never as clear-cut as that, and we do learn and change. Sometimes.
     
  7. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    well i have to give you kudos for at least also pointing out here the liberal media's part in radicalization, but i dont think calling the shooter "not a lunatic at all " or that he was "acting reasonably" is reality or reasonable in anyway. When has terrorism ever accomplished it's goal?
     
  8. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    I did not refer to the "liberal media". I did not refer to "the shooter".
    I put up a hypothetical when I wrote that someone running amok may not be a lunatic. I posed that the person might be "acting reasonably" on unreasonable beliefs.

    And I disagree with the notion that terrorism never achieves (some of) its goals.
     
  9. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    oh. i thought your "ad hominem attacks and slander of our opponents" was referring to how the media is constantly just dismissing fears and concerns by yelling "racist" or "bigot", instead of unjudgementally providing factual information.

    This thread is about the New Zealand Mosque shootings.
     
  10. Whitebeard

    Whitebeard Senior Member

    Personally I am a bit of a lefty, always have been. But I just as strongly condem the actions of groups such as Barder Mienhoff, The Red Brigade, The Shining Path, The Angry Brigade etc and all left leaning murderers who subscribe to thir extreme ideology as I do the far right.

    Blowing people up and mowing down innocent people in the name of any cause is just wrong no matter which shade of politics or religion it's performed in
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  11. Mendel

    Mendel Member

    "The media" are not providing factual information? Can you support that?
    Because I see a lot of factual information, and not a lot of yelling, in the media I use to keep informed.
    For example, the concern "we need a wall to stop drug trafficking" has been prominently and repeatedly addressed with facts.
     
  12. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    yes. but this thread is for recording developments of known facts in the New Zealand Mosque shooting and conspiracies that pop up around it.
     
  13. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    Tarrant's manifesto anticipated conspiracy theories about him:
    Timothy McVeigh was also a conspiracy theorist who was frustrated with conspiracy theories about himself.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    OMg alex jones is doing a show inciting other white supremicists. th epage says March 17th, but it seems to be live and i cant scroll back. he just said "white genocide is happening" after having a guest on who said he was a "white supremicist".
    upload_2019-3-18_13-13-30.

    "There is a war on white people" he said just now.
    and now a caller saying he is a white supremicist and a vet and he doesnt even
    even hunt because i hate killing, but what are we supposed to do?".

    This is sick and i cant listen to anymore, so i wasn't able to figure out how he thinks the killer says the attack was a false flag.
     
  15. foo

    foo New Member

    Kia ora from New Zealand!
    I'm from Christchurch and found this website while searching for a mirror of debunking911.com.

    I can't add much to the discussion here aside from sharing a local perspective and collating information from local media regarding the event, but FWIW on a per capita basis, the body count here would translate to over 2000 deaths in a population the size of America's.

    Unfortunately, the culture of romanticism and zealous belief in conspiracy theories reaches New Zealand also, and this is fast becoming New Zealand's "9/11" (although we don't use mixed-endian dates). There are uncorroborated/anecdotal reports on Facebook of the police disregarding written threats to conduct the attack, that were delivered to the mosque. The gun club the attacker was a member of, was also reported to police, because of overtly radical views and behaviour (doomsday prepping, threats against socialists etc).

    There may be failures of the intelligence services here to detect and avert the attack, perhaps not unlike 9/11 (from what I understand of that attack), but such snippets are fuelling speculation and conspiracy. The police and counter-terror response was good from all other accounts. He was taken alive in 30-40 minutes, and is apparently going to try and represent himself in court, probably to try and let out a white-supremacist speil.

    Regarding the manifesto, I was surprised by the coherency, but less surprised by the simple, unintelligent white-supremacist views espoused. White-supremacists/Fascists/nazis/the alt-right/whatever-we-call-them-now are known to be active in NZ, I recall a cyclist being killed in a random attack, and many immigrants can recount racism or racial animosity. Which is ironic considering NZ history, all whites being immigrants here for about 200 years, but I digress.

    Ipse dixit, the attacker is an "eco-fascist" who distances himself from Marxists and and socialists because he perceives them as being 'anti-white'. He also cites Trump as being an inspiration, but a terrible leader. I think the media are correct to call this person out in plain language as a nazi, fascist or alt-right troll (given his use of memes and N-chan-culture).

    What concerns me most, is the only thing I see separating this terrorist from much of the pro-Trump/anti-immigration rhetoric online, is he put his thoughts into action. This may very well be an example of N-chan culture and the conspiracy echo chamber radicalising a person into terrorism.

    With that in mind, I would like to say thank you to all the sceptics on this site, for calling out bullshit when you see it, and using actual, non-pseudo-scientific methods to arrive at your conclusions.
    Kia kaha (stay strong).
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Even the 8chan thread where the gunman posted the links beforehand had people claiming it was a false flag, the footage was faked etc etc. I don't recommend reading that thread, btw, unless you want to be filled with despair for humanity in general and the internet in particular.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. Agent K

    Agent K Active Member

    I wonder if this deters terrorist attacks, knowing that instead of being hailed as heroic they'll be dismissed by former friends as false flags. Or does the terrorist figure that just as Anders Breivik inspired him, he will inspire his own followers. Or does he hope that the attack will provoke counter-attacks and calls for gun control that will provoke others like him.
     
  18. derwoodii

    derwoodii Senior Member

    I learnt new words today,, accelerationist and collpasitarian "spelling"? the aims of this nutter & his ilk is to pick and push the fight between east west christian muslim get it done now rather than later..



    Hate-filled Christchurch killer rapidly achieves what he wanted: chaos
    https://www.theage.com.au/politics/...ves-what-he-wanted-chaos-20190320-p515uz.html

    The hate-filled killer at Christchurch’s mosques may be in custody, but he is still achieving what he wanted: escalating chaos.
    Who could have imagined that just a month from Anzac Day, the leaders of Turkey and Australia would be at each other’s throat for the first time since their predecessors fought on Gallipoli’s slopes 104 years ago? It is almost unthinkable
     
  19. foo

    foo New Member

    His motives are to start a race war, I agree, but I disagree the attacker is a "nutter"; he is lucid, just without a bullshit filter and came to believe a lot of alt-right conspiracy about overpopulation based on pseudoscience (there's studies suggesting the planet can maintain 30 billion in stasis). A psychiatric evaluation is still pending from what I understand, but he does seem sane, and it's unlikely the defence of insanity will be available to him.

    Erdogan has also since made more measured comments, which are less widely reported. Turkey has an election looming, and I'd wager his emotive rhetoric has more to do with domestic politics, than any geopolitical dispute. Bear in mind he's not entirely wrong to state that there is anti-Muslim sentiment in the west, and this is much less egregious than Trump's populist leveraging of anti-muslim sentiment (and FWIW I condemn all populist rhetoric). Threats of retaliation have been made by IS, and NZ's terror threat level remains high. The arrest of one other alt-right/white-supremacist has been made following the massacre, and panic-buying to preempt gun regulation changes has been widely reported in NZ.

    To help debunk the 'NZ has the toughest gun laws in the world and this still happened' flavour of conspiracy:
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nati...s-gun-laws-pm-speaks-to-media-in-christchurch
    https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/chch...ngs-highlight-gaps-in-new-zealand-s-arms-laws

    Regarding 'It was a false flag because Police counter-terrorism squads were coincidentally training at the same time and didn't respond immediately, let him conduct the attack, et cetera:
    Police were receiving counter-terrorism and weapon handling training at the time the attack occurred, but the conspiracy theory is keen to ignore the fact Police are often sent on such training programmes. Methamphetamine related gun-violence in Christchurch in the weeks prior to the massacre appears to have prompted the training refresher. And the Police/counter-terror response was pretty good anyway.

    As we get closer to the bottom of this, I would posit that even YouTube's recommended video algorithms will receive some overdue scrutiny, for popularising junk science, conspiracy and click bait in order to create revenue.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2019
  20. foo

    foo New Member

    • Informative Informative x 1
  21. foo

    foo New Member

    Another theory to debunk here.

    Conspiracy theory:
    'how can there only be one shooter when the second mosque attacked was on the other side of town, 7 minutes later. He must have had accomplices' - or similar.

    Debunk:
    The claimant is unlikely to be familiar with travel times in and around Christchurch (or just unable to read maps).

    The attacker used Google maps navigation, as evidenced in the video. That route is 6.8km (4.2 miles), which Google overstates (for legal reasons) as being a 22 minute drive. The majority of the route is along two and three lane roads.

    Speaking from experience, the typical travel time at traffic speed from the Deans Ave mosque to the Linwood mosque is in the order of 10 or 15 minutes. However the attacker was speeding and slaloming through traffic (per eyewitness accounts and video evidence). The video ends with him en-route to the Linwood mosque, about half-way down Bealey Avenue, meaning that the remaining drive was approximately 3.2km and with only two sets of traffic lights to navigate, not that he was stopping for them anyway.
     
    • Informative Informative x 1