Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. jvnk08

    jvnk08 Active Member

    I'm not sure if this has ever been shared here before, I apologize if so. A search of "noam chomsky" came up with no threads specific to this video.

    Noam makes a pretty solid argument as to why the obvious use of 9/11 to further questionable national security objectives is not evidence that it was planned by the government. We as the public should be well aware by now that tragedies are often used to further political agendas, because people want action and that directly translates into votes for the most vocal. But that doesn't mean they planned the attacks, it just means that (as expected) they exploited them - and, as he explains, so did every other country in the world.

     
  2. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Here's a transcript of that video:
     
  4. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    So if there was a "top secret" international network of "skull and bones" types/privateers and mercenaries and so on and so forth it would be in all of their interests to carry out an attack like 911.

    Exactly.
    He is ignorant.

    Then why have secret societies been around for thousands of years?
    He's joking, right? If history is any measure then it's more likely that the whistle blower or person leaking would have been prosecuted or shot.

    I'm sure. But as far as industries go... why is it that Chomsky Inc. seems to be doing well?

    911 wasn't a natural event no matter what one might imagine of it. It was either a Muslim conspiracy directed from one of Osama's cave complexes (before he was found... in a house, etc.) or it was some other type of conspiracy.

    Ideas produced by a person who can't distinguish between natural events and intelligence are essentially worthless to me.

    I do. Why shouldn't I?

    Curious the tower between the two pillars of the Right and the Left in the brains between our temples represents caring/wisdom/Solomon in Masonic symbolism. I'm aware that it looks like a Rorschach test to ignorant people though. Maybe people like Chomsky should care more...
     
  5. hiper

    hiper Active Member

    Well it seems even mr. Chomsky who I like listening to got deceived.
    The fact that he says that it "would seem to be extremely unlikely" does not really compare with reality.
    Did he forget how many 100 000's of people have died in the subsequent US invasion wars? That does not really point to an administration worrying about death and destruction.
     
  6. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    He sounds like Hillary on Benghazi.

    I wonder if he has psychopathic tendencies too.
     
  7. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Noam Chomsky is "ignorant"? :)
     
  8. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    You are veering towards the bottom of the pyramid here. Perhaps instead of calling him names and simply contradicting him, you could provide some counterargument? Or even a refutation?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  9. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    I'm probably more ignorant than Chomsky overall.

    But in this specific case, yes... he seems to be ignorant of the fact that when people are members of secret societies they don't necessarily leak or try to overturn the system. (Not unless they want to risk their honor, their lives... eh, I forget how the Founders put it all but they basically outlined it. "Give me liberty or give me death... and pass the potatoes while you're at it." Etc.)
     
  10. hiper

    hiper Active Member

    Chomsky knows how many tens of millions of people in the 20th century were killed by their own government...
    And he also says he is quite isolated on the matter.
     
  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    You think he does not know this?

    Obviously he DOES know this, so you are misinterpreting what he is saying.

    He's not talking about a tiny secret society. He's talking about the Bush Administration, and all the people required to both carry out the plan, and to cover it up. How do they keep all the FBI agents silent? All the scientists?
     
  12. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    How does knowing that make him ignorant?
     
  13. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    As Chomsky might say... who cares? What's done is done... etc. Just kidding. The top of the pyramid between the Right and the Left is defined by caring if you get things right... but he's sitting there saying "who cares?" and so forth? That's a psychopathic tendency emerging and evolving in his random brain events, I'd imagine. (It's not like I said that he's attended a big hidden ceremony where people try to engage in the theatrical production of the Cremation of Care, by happenstance. That might be insulting.)

    As far as answering his points, I answered many of them. And on his point about "Who cares?" I'd note this... the families do. Do you care?
     
  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I care, but I think his (extemporaneous) point was better expressed when he said:

    That is what I think, and part of the reason why I debunk. Bunk is a distraction from serious issues.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. hiper

    hiper Active Member

    He knows what governments are capable of so him saying "extremely unlikely" is to a degree contradictory.

    Serious issues like the 100 000's of deaths caused by US invasions under G W Bush perhaps?
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I don't think he's saying they would not if they could get away with it. He's saying that there's no evidence than they did it, it would be an insane risk, and it would be essentially impossible to cover up.

    Exactly.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    I'm not sure what imaginary scenario would give rise to the idea that it's diverting people away from serious issues. After all, 911 and the War on Terror/War on Fear that it created are basically central to the current world order and the current status of the Right and Left in politics and so forth. (At least until the theatrical production of the collapse of the Almighty Dollar, I'd imagine.) A note on its centrality:
    As far as who cares goes... an artist's rendition:
     
  18. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The conspiracy theory is quite obviously diverting people away from serious issues.
     
  19. Oxymoron

    Oxymoron Banned Banned

    That is a very big statement you made there Mick. pleased to see it.

    It is a deviation from your usual neutrality, which I understand the reason for but nevertheless, I would genuinely appreciate if you would expand on it. I know it sounds a bit like entrapment but I would really be interested to know what 'serious issues' are to you. I agree with Hiper when he asks if the massive death toll and ongoing occupation etc are amongst them?
     
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    This argument only actually holds water if Bush actually WAS behind 9/11. If it's just a baseless conspiracy theory, then why should "the left" take it up?

    There has been plenty of criticism of the exploitation of 9/11.
     
  21. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Imagine it like the production of a collateralized debt obligation. The only people taking insane risks would be the patsies (the poor people buying a house with no money to do so), the handlers above them wouldn't be at risk of as much (the realtors and lenders handling the deal and laundering the debt/money) and the people guiding their trends (the Fed) would have almost zero risk.

    It's not necessary that anyone in the system necessarily believes that they have much of anything to cover up or leak. It usually only looks that way in retrospect, so those supporting the system would naturally say: "Who cares? What's done is done."

    Not to mention that once you get to the top it's multinational corporations, global banksters and multinational mercenaries and so forth. What are they going to do, report on themselves to the corporate media and hope that they don't wind up being spied on like Petraeus?

    The imaginary scenario of many seems to be: "Surely someone would leak!"

    But... why? It's unlikely that they're sitting there thinking, "We're a bunch of criminal conspirators. Someone here should really leak that we're a bunch of criminals... but I won't." Etc. Imagining that someone high up in the leadership would leak might be almost as bad as imagining that Bin Laden's cohorts would leak... thereby "falsify" the official conspiracy theory based on imaginary evidence. There again, what evidence does Chomsky actually cite or deal with in this demonstration of "sheer logic" other than his own imagination. He imagines that someone would leak... QED? Well, I'd imagine that they'd organize their plot in such a way that it wouldn't leak just like the official story about Osama organizing his plot that way.

    So, there you go.
     
  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Serious issues need to be ROOT issues. Things like the Iraq sanctions are in some ways the end result, and not an issue in themselves. For me the key issue is the role of money in politics, which then leads to the military-industrial and prison-industrial complexes, and corrupt revolving door politics, which leads to unnecessary wars, and an insane domestic prison population.
     
    • Like Like x 6
  23. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    So they do it in such a way that it does not require the complicity of the FBI? The FBI is totally unaware of what is going on? The FBI (and the CIA, and the NSA, and then the DHS) will be tricked into going down an entirely dead end investigation, and become convinced that it was Bin Laden? All of them?

    And they don't need to pressure all the scientists in the entire world to keep silent? It was done in such a way that the millions of expert people who understand physics will not notice anything wrong, only a few lay people will notice the physics errors?

    How would they do this exactly? They would have to make it look EXACTLY like the collapse was a result of the collision and fire. Do you think that's what they did?
     
  24. jvnk08

    jvnk08 Active Member

    But see, it's not Bush's words they are "repeating".

    It's the evidence-backed, overwhelmingly mutually supported narrative constructed from the accounts of thousands of people who were there during the attacks, who were inside the government, who were in the military in the ensuing conflicts. All of them must be lying or mistaken, a notion that makes far more unsupportable assertions to bridge the gap between the event and a conspiracy.

    It's the lack of logically sound hypothesized motives behind destroying a national icon, behind abruptly halting economic activity in the largest economic center on the planet and further disrupting it for months afterwards. "The money" seems to be the only consistently described incentive(depending on who you ask) for the attacks to have been orchestrated from the inside, something they could have made a lot more of had the attacks never occurred.

    It's the lack of verifiable whistleblowers voicing to the contrary. Is there any evidence that people within the government or the military have come out and said that AQ could not have pulled off the attack, or if they could have did so at the behest of the US government? I suggest making a new thread if so, because that would be more convincing evidence. So far I haven't seen any so far that is, again, verifiable and consistent in its claims.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  25. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Not at all. If you don't understand what happened on 911 then you're not going to understand the next "drill" based on imaginary scenarios and so on.

    And an awareness of conspiracies, conspirators, banksters and psychopaths could be a useful form of knowledge with more explanatory power than most coincidence theories, e.g.:
     
  26. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    But you are presupposing it was an inside job, an "imaginary scenario". What if it were more or less as Chomsky said. Terrorists attack, then it is exploited by those in power.

    What do you think actually happened?
     
  27. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    I'm not sure yet. I actually haven't finished reading Tarpley's book.

    Sounds like a coincidence theory to me... and in politics, everything is usually a conspiracy. (On a side note, I also simply didn't like his "Who cares?" thing. Ironically, if he doesn't care about the truth for its own sake then he could have used the event as a technique to reach whatever ends he actually does care about.)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  28. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    Study history, it's not as if a mutually supported narrative among thousands of lemmings about a false flag attack would be without precedent. And if that was the case then, it could be the case now.
     
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Tarpley claims it was undeniably controlled demolition, probably organized by Cheney, and it was done to maintain petrodollar hegemony.

    And more specifically he claims (emphasis his)
    http://www.indymedia.org.uk/media/2005/07/317436.pdf

    Which I'm pretty sure is all bunk.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  30. jvnk08

    jvnk08 Active Member

    Except there are some key differences between "then" and recent history: the Internet, ubiquitous cameras and computing devices.

    It is by all accounts incredibly easy to blow the whistle on wrongdoing today. Without a doubt the folks within the intelligence community privy to such wrongdoing would have the know-how to blow the whistle anonymously - software developments throughout the 2000s have made it incredibly easy, even for the layperson. The government even started one such effort in 2002: Tor, designed to enable those living in countries with oppressive regimes to anonymously leak information to the outside world. There are even more advanced techniques possible with a bit of understanding regarding how computers, networks and encryption work.

    In light of that, we're basically left with two options: everyone within said agencies is completely brainwashed and they are air-tight(which, going on your suggestion to look at history has never been the case), or the story is a lot simpler than the conspiracy narrative.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  31. hiper

    hiper Active Member

    You forget one thing.. they first told the incredibly believable lie that it were terrorists who attacked on 9/11.
    Thus creating an easy way out 'mentally' for most...

    And this is the moment they spread this lie the evening of 11/09/2001.

    321321.
     
  32. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    This concept that 'every scientist in the world' but for a few 'laypeople' backs the official account is a total fiction. Should know better.
     
  33. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Sorry, let's go with "pretty much every scientist in the world".
     
  34. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    Again, nonsense. Were all the physicists, demolitions experts and structural engineers on the planet polled for their opinion? Where are you getting this notion that 'pretty much every scientist in the world' agrees with the official account? Are you seriously making the assumption that those who've come out, on the record, in disagreement with the official account are the ONLY qualified people in the world who share that opinion? Or that everyone who failed to speak up is in automatic agreement with the official account? Where are you getting your figure of 'Pretty much every scientist in the world?' What constitutes 'pretty much'?
    It's a contrivance, distracting from the fact that there are quite a few pertinent professionals who don't buy the official account. Sure, they appear to be in the minority, but that doesn't make them 'laypeople', nor does being in the minority where such matters are concerned automatically make you wrong.
     
  35. mynym

    mynym Banned Banned

    I'm not sure on what basis he's writing half the stuff he wrote.

    Sometimes 911 reminds me of a sort of gnostic initiation ceremony where everyone begins to have secret knowledge, etc. I would note that claims to secret knowledge is ultimately anti-scientific. At least, according to the laws that an alchemist (Who thought that he had secret knowledge.) formulated for others and so forth. The story of an apple (forbidden fruit) falling on Newton's head and imparting the secret knowledge that lead him to the theory of gravity and so forth is bunk, by the way. But anyway, from this we get Apple Inc. being traded in the Big Apple in NYC... which is a big epicenter of abject corruption. Maybe it's all just symbolic and artistic expressions of "bunk" that might as well carry the same epistemic weight as a Rorschach test... except when it isn't.

    In any case, is there anything about the official story that you think might be bunk? Anything at all? Or did they get it all right, from the narratives provided on the day of the attacks onward.

    Anyway... I'd imagine that if people can successfully conscript a lot of resources and wealth to build buildings that have their "top secret" symbolism encrypted in them, then the same types of groups might also be able to figure out ways to successfully demolish buildings in order to bring the Right and the Left and then the Center together into a new order. Chomsky said that people would have to be insane to try that. And? I hadn't noticed the ruling/measuring classes with their symbolic compass and square and so forth overflowing with sanity these days. The insane part of it would be if Bush's thousand points of light began to look suspiciously like a thousand peasants with torches and pitchforks headed toward the houses of their current ruling/Masonic class, etc. "Wait a second, that's not a thousand points of light... uh don't leave your child behind! You can afford some more compassionate conservatism with the banksters voodoo economics... or somethin'." Etc.

    But what if Bush himself was ultimately a scapegoat left to read "My Pet Goat"? I guess if one goes with Chomsky's answer of "Who cares?" then people will never even get to the next level of compartmentalization and implausible deniability with respect to events like the JFK assassination and 911. And that's no fun. What does he care about, anyway?
     
  36. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Okay, then let's just go with "hundreds of thousands", for the sake of argument.

    How did they get hundreds of thousands of scientists to go along with the story?
     
  37. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I don't know of anything wrong in the NIST reports. I suspect there might be errors or omissions in some of the background stuff in the 9/11 commission report, particularly to do with the CIA involvement in Jihadist groups, and the involvement of powerful Saudis.

    However I full agree with the official story of how the buildings collapse. It makes perfect scientific sense.

    On the conspiracy spectrum I'm in the (they are) "glad it happened" camp, with perhaps a small scoop of "let it happen".
     
  38. Grieves

    Grieves Senior Member

    By presenting a more-or-less believable scenario for an extremely traumatic event that next to no one wants to believe was anything more than a terrorist attack. Time and time again one of the primary causes for the scientific community to disregard the explosives scenario in spite of no one having adequately tested for it is how 'totally unbelievable' the premise of pre-planned collapses is, and how 'impossible' the logistics of setting such a thing up would be... how the people involved would 'have to be crazy', and such crazies could never get into the positions of influence required. The possibility of an explosives scenario is very often dismissed from a position of moral outrage at the idea, before the scientific possibility has even been entertained, or before the lack of a scientific investigation into that possibility has been questioned.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  39. hiper

    hiper Active Member

    A percentage of them believes the official lie..
    A percentage of them knows what's going on but doesn't really care..
    A percentage of them knows what's going on but for whatever reason fears speaking out..
    A percentage of them knows what's going on and have joined a truth movement..

    Don't forget all were obviously educated by and employed in the same system.. They have build a career, have kids a mortgage...
    Going against government is still perceived (as mad as it sounds) as going against the majority consensus trance...
    Don't dismiss the giant wall these people are in front of.. you are basically asking them to turn their lives upside down...
     
    • Like Like x 1
  40. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    And then how do you explain the scientifically literate skeptics and debunkers like myself. Why am I siding with the official story?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.