chemtrails

awake101

New Member
Is there anyone out there who can give me a link, title, name or any connection to a proper independent empirical study on chemtrails versus contrails? Let's say someone can come up with one or two "independent" studies, why wouldn't there be more? Why aren't the environmental groups such as Greenpeace not doing anything in there power to collect money and investigate this issue for themselves so that we (the people) know what is going on. Although I am fraid that I can't really trust Greenpeace either since they seem to think that Global Warming is real too! I am sick and tired of this back and forth bull shit. It is always like your word against mine........when is this going to stop? The discussion is good but we can discuss this until eternity and it still won't get us anywhere or bring us any answers to our questions. Sometimes common sense works such as, are there anamolies in the sky caused by planes and have the government (military) done tests on human in the past? Is the government transparent and always telling the truth? Well, there you go!
 
There you go; the government is probably doing something.

But why this exactly, why chemtrails? What's the actual evidence that even suggests the "something" is spraying stuff in long white lines in the sky?

Nobody has done a study of chemtrails vs. contrails, because nobody can tell the difference. Contrails sometimes persist and spread, and what people say are "chemtrails" look exactly like persistent spreading contrails. So how can you do a study between two things which are identical?
 
Is there anyone out there who can give me a link, title, name or any connection to a proper independent empirical study on chemtrails versus contrails?

Hmm... I dunno. Is there anyone out there who can give us a link, title, name or any connection to a proper independent empirical study on unicorns versus horses? get it?
 
Awake how can someone do an empirical comparison of somethign that is known to exist (contrails), with something for which there is no verifiable evidence of it existing (chemtrails)??

How would anyone do such a study??
 
The larger environmental groups usually contain someone with a science background who takes care of chemtrail beliefs by countering them with rational thought. Chemtrails don't exist in the presence of rational thoughts.
In place of alliances with groups that contain rational people, chemtraiul believers invent imaginary "coalitions" which usually have less than 100 members worldwide. There are splintered factions an all the rest. Lots of hoopla when they get noticed.
It's a dead-end street, at the end there is emptiness for all the believers.
I hope you study contrailscience.com and stay out of it, and even join in debunking if you feel like it.
Jay
 
Ok, I can tell there are a lot of smart people among you??? Perhaps this suggestion will help you understand what I meant. Why is there not somebody actually going up in the air (perhaps in a balloon but you figure that out yourself) and take samples from the contrails from planes at various altitudes and from different planes in different locations around the world. To me that seems the only acceptable evidence for or against chemtrails (since we will never get a true or straight answer from the 'government' and yes, the government is always doing something or are you denying that governments would never do anything without knowledge of the people?).
 
as far as I know no-one is perfectly honest - and that includes chemtrail promoters as well as governments.

If someone wants to prove chemtrails exist then yes, I suppose that sampling some would give excellent evidence should somethign be found. Alas it would not prove that they do not exist should nothign be found, as it is simply not possible to sample EVERY contrail.

And hte costs are probably not outrageous - I seem to recall reasing somewhere that about $20k was spent making "What in the World are they Spraying" - if that is true then I think the same amount would get you several hours flying in a plane that could reach the required atmospheres - and peole actually make and market air sampling gear - eg http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/aircraft/aircore.html that could be used.

there have been numerous studies of pollutants in the atmosphere & the problems associated with it - eg http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ba-1993-0232.ch004
 
Your answer shocks me. Don't you really want to have solid prove that chemtrails are an imagination. I truly believe that the prove is in the pudding. You can show all the pictures that you want and attach a plausible explanation for what you are seeing but that still doesn't prove anything. We are talking in circles here. Just because I can see a crop circle, doesn't mean aliens exist or that I believe in aliens and I am sure none of you do either.
 
There are people that go up in the air to study contrails. They're called "scientists". And yes... they're usually funded by a government.

If you don't trust what government funded scientists are telling you about the trails in the sky, then I guess it's up to conspiracy theorists to prove their claims and pay for their own scientific research. Most people accept and understand contrail formation.
 
Yes, I know of three abortive attempts to sample. One was supposedly by William Thomas, but the plane only went to 10,000 ft and couldn't get close.
The next was Carnicom and some buddy who started collecting money, they said they had $10k, but no one knows where it went.....
The third was "Blue Skies International", which solicited for funds but folded immediately when Toni Thayer running it ran out of friends.

Even if you had a plane ready to go, you would have to choose your target carefully. What if you wasted your time and money chasing after a Southwest airlines flight from Dallas to Phoenix?

The logical way to avoid that is to begin a remote sensing program to identify the planes seen from the ground.
I descibe the proposal here:
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/100-14-Years-of-Chemtrails-Comments-and-Suggestions

The best part about this plan is that if all chemmies did it, there would be no need to take samples.
Read the link to find out why!
 
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Your answer shocks me. Don't you really want to have solid prove that chemtrails are an imagination. I truly believe that the prove is in the pudding. You can show all the pictures that you want and attach a plausible explanation for what you are seeing but that still doesn't prove anything. We are talking in circles here. Just because I can see a crop circle, doesn't mean aliens exist or that I believe in aliens and I am sure none of you do either.

awake101, suppose I went and sampled a trail, and found ice crystals. What would that change? How on earth would that be "solid proof"? All that would show would be that one trail out of millions was made of ice crystals. It says nothing about the other trails.
 
Your answer shocks me. Don't you really want to have solid prove that chemtrails are an imagination.

It is the old problem of proving a negative - how do you prove something doesn't exist? Just because 1 contrail sampels fine - does that mean every other contrail is also OK?

However there is such a thing as evidence of absence - if something SHOULD leave evidence, then lack of that evidence can be taken as evidence that the "something" is not actually there. Eg if I check my pocket I should find any coins in it - if I find no coins in it then I can reasonably conclude that there are no coins in it.

So what is the evidence that chemtrails exist that we SHOULD see if they do exist? well there should be something in the environment that is not supposed to be there - bugs or chemicals or nanoparticles....something that is unexplained by other sources - either in terms of quantity, or existence.

but there is no such evidence.

So while I have no PROOF that chemtrails do not exist, I believe I have very good evidence that they PROBABLY do not exist. It would only take 1 sample with good provenence to convince me otherwise.
 
I guess you are all making my point. There is NO evidence either way. We are at a point where some people just prefer to believe one story over the other, nothing more nothing less. I hope you realize how childish of an argument we are having. It's true, no it's not, yes it, no it isn't........Just because conrails look the way they look, doesn't mean they can't be chemtrails at the same time. I don't care if sampling would be too difficult or too expensive or too something else. I stick to the fact that this is the only way to come up with anything tangible. What should we test for? I guess we should look for anything that is out of the ordinary and especially look at the quantity of it. I acknowledge how incredible difficult if not impossible it is to prove either theory but as long as we can't do this, we should just agree to disagree.
 
There is NO evidence either way.


I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Here are the facts as I understand them...

There is no evidence chemtrails exist.
There is no evidence chemtrails don't exist.
There is evidence contrails exist.
 
Indeed, there is a VAST amount of evidence for contrails. There is no evidence for chemtrails.

There's even plenty of evidence against chemtrails, depending on what version of the theory you subscribe to.
 
Hi awake101.
You asked if anyone has sampled the sky. What would you think of the idea that someone might organise about 80,000 aircraft to go into the sky each day and take samples of the air?
Imagine those planes would fly right up to the altitude where people observe trails and they would not only collect the air outside them full of trails and whatever is in them, but the planes would compress and concentrate that air. Consider that that air would be directed down tubes all over the plane so that any material might accumulate, and some of it would pass through filters where it could be caught and tested.
That would be some experiment huh?
Well it does happen every single day.
Airliners take their air from directly outside using their cabin pressurisation systems. The engine compressor stages take the air that is often full of these white trails and compress it and pump it into the cabin for the crew and passengers to breathe, and redirect it all over the aircraft through the bleed air system to prevent critical parts of the plane freezing solid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabin_pressurization
Do maintenance crews have to constantly scrape "chemtrail" materials out of the inside of airliners?
No.
Crew unions get stroppy over poorly maintained engines that are claimed to release fumes from the heated phosphate based oils and hydraulic fluids.
There are a small number of cases where crews are taking legal action in regard to fumes from heated oils and leaky seals.
If the sky was full of deadly poisons, don't you think air crews fighting their own employers would be rather more concerned about that than focusing on hot oil fumes?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerotoxic_syndrome
Do you think airliner pilots and crew just haven't noticed white trails in the sky and need "chemtrail" believers to "wake them up"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWdQhsmFZVo
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/42977-chemtrails-contrails-2.html‬

Planes get grounded worldwide when volcanos erupt and clouds of volcanic dust so diffuse they are invisible from the ground prevent planes flying, but miraculously (not really miraculously) planes fly unimpeded through dense white trails in the sky that some folk claim to be aluminium oxide.

Now if the trails that cover the sky were aluminium oxide, as claimed by various chemtrail believers, then there would be thousands of tons of aluminium oxide that the planes are encountering at about 500mph.
Do you know what happened when I personally encountered aluminium oxide at only 35mph? I almost wore my fingers down to the bone. Sandpaper grit is usually aluminium oxide, and the wheel of a powersander spins at about 35mph. A few grams at 35mph do a lot of damage in a fraction of a second. Think about travelling through clouds of the same substance at 500mph often for hours at a time. Various people claim the dense white trails in the sky are not water but aluminium oxide. How do you think the paint on the nose and wings and tail of a jet will fare encountering that material at 500mph, which is approx two and a half times faster than the air speed of a sandblaster? Do the noses of jets landing at your nearest airport look abraded?

You asked for sampling.
It happens thousands of times a day.
Also, scientists have deliberately directly sampled trails "in-situ"
Here is what they found:

http://www.patarnott.com/pdf/contrailMicrophysics99.pdf‬
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org..._climate/media/ACCRI_SSWP_III_Heymsfield.pdf‬

http://www.espo.nasa.gov/success/daily_summary/Flight_reports/960507.dc8.html‬
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1352231005010708
http://journals.ametsoc.org/doi/full/10.1175/1520-0469(2000)057<0464:OTTOCI>2.0.CO;2‬

‪"In situ observations of contrail microphysics and implications
for their radiative impact"
JOURNAL OF GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH
May 1999‬

Please tell us what you worked out yourself in relation to sampling.
 
An analogy could be the search for extraterrestrial life. People have been running various SETI programs for decades, always searching. My suggestion to use flight tracking and long range photography is very similar.

As Ken Bradley shows in this video, you can identify up to 42 flights per day.
The bad part is that he still believed that these commercial flights are spraying something.

The good part, in a way, is that he eventually figured out that he was probably wrong, and stopped altogether
I assume he learned a good lesson.

The bad part is that he hasn't begun to help other folks do the same.

here is the sort of work he did, actually very excellent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FvXVvahXw4M
 
I believe that the colder the air the more one would expect to see persistent contrails for obvious reasons. What is then your explanation for the fact that most commercial planes show a trail that dissipates rather quickly? Shouldn't all planes at 30,000 ft and over leave persistent contrails as at this altitude the water vapor will always turn into ice crystals? If you can, I would also like to see satellite pictures over a busy air traffic area in China. These ought to show the same lines that you see on satellite pictures from N-America and Europe, don't you think?
 
Persistent contrails need temperature of -40 or less, and above 70% relative humidity.

It's always -40 or less somewhere overhead (more so in the winter), but it's not always humid enough, and usually only in a fairly narrow range of altitude, a few thousand feet. So only some planes leave persistent trails (although it can vary with the weather).

There's very little air traffic in China compared to the US and Europe. So you get less contrails. And since you only get contrails in flyover areas, and China is quite sparse, you tend to see less contrails near the cities. But of course they exist.
 
Looks like the cloud dissipation ops worked pretty good over Suzhou. The Chinese control all their weather through modification, according to weatherwars.com!:)

Seriously, awake, you need to understand contrail basics.
1. Contrail formation requires the -40F temp.
2. contrail persistence requires the humidity.

Like in Mick's picture of China, and yes I know you've probably been falsely told at some chemtrail site that China doesn't have "chemtrails". Look at the area where the contrails formed, near the approaching boundary where the cloudy air was already humid enough for persistence, but not in the drier air nearer Suzhou. If the cloudy area moves closer to Suzhou, you could probably expect contrails to begin persisting overhead there.

This is not the sort of thing you will EVER learn about at a "chemtrails" believer website.
They only gloss over the details about ordinary contrails, because to get into the details starts to move into their dis-comfort zone, where if you really think about it, it all makes sense. How many times have I seen the typical case, "Well, for
four days, no chemtrails at all, perfectly blue skies, but this morning they predicted rain and they started spraying ahead of the front.....". The same story over and over, you'd think they would eventually notice that there is a pattern, eh?

And every year about 4th of July when it gets hot and dry, I start to see chemtrail believers wondering what happened, "They haven't sprayed us here for a month, guess all the air traffic stopped." or the more imaginative, "They probably sent all the planes out to stir up a hurricane.", then about October, they are all, "They are MURDERING us, spraying night and day!". Again, you'd think more would figure this out.....

The facts around ordinary contrails are fascinating, especially when you get to see them from above.
So many chemtrail believers have a viewpoint which ends at their horizon.
If they only knew how cool the real world works, it's far more interesting than any conspiracy theory......
 
As the extensive operation of anomalous aerosol activity in our skies continues, the efforts of many hardworking and deeply concerned activists are bearing fruit. Despite the ongoing intense secrecy and a particularly vicious disinformation campaign designed to dissuade the public from even looking into this matter, more and more people are nevertheless becoming aware of this phenomenon. Every day, the original salient questions are being asked all over again by a number of newly awakened and startled citizens. What am I looking at here? How can I know that something strange is going on? How do I know who to believe? The following information is an attempt to provide a model for individual investigation, suitable for use by any interested and open-minded citizen.
All people of sound mind, sufficiently motivated to do so, have the innate capacity to answer the fundamental questions about chemtrails for themselves. There is no need to take someone else s word for any of this. In fact, in a world of second-hand and derivative information, the best action we can take is to use our own mental powers and direct perceptions in pursuit of the basic truth. Because there is no great difficulty in satisfying a reasonably rigorous mind as to the presence of something very strange in our skies.
There is a relatively simple method to prove the existence of chemtrails overhead in your own area, as opposed to normal contrails. This do-it-yourself proof only takes time, patience, and normal powers of observation. The following outline will attempt to describe an optimum generic situation in order to make this experiment available to as many people as possible.
The first step requires establishing a minimum familiarity with routine airplane traffic in your location. This is a matter of public record, but it is much easier to see for yourself just by watching and recording the times and directions of scheduled air traffic. At regular times the flights to and from various locations from Companies A, B and C fly along their normal flight paths above you. These times and flight paths do not vary much in normal circumstances and are easily observed day after day, week after week, at approximately the same time, position, and altitude. Especially away from major urban centers, there is a fairly easily observable pattern to normal fight traffic in one s area, even considering the variations and changes now and again. If you live where contrails are a normal occurrence in the atmosphere, then also look carefully over a period of time at how long they tend to last under differing weather conditions, at different times. Keeping notes of personal observations from the beginning will be very useful in establishing the ordinary daily picture overhead in your own area.
Normal air traffic is of course obliged by law to follow normal flight regulations. This means that each plane must keep a considerable distance from all others, in its own generously allotted airspace. Even without consciously thinking about this, we all have unconsciously registered the usual distances planes keep from others in our local skies. If you don t live near a large airport, then this will be especially obvious. The first easy step towards proving to yourself and others that chemtrails actually exist will present itself when three or four or more planes fly back and forth close together across the sky.
No normal air traffic ever does any such thing as fly in close formation, turn, and fly back together over the same airspace. Even if you are not able to watch them turn together, you will be able to see the unusual closeness of these formations of aircraft without any trouble. A good pair of binoculars will reveal that the common type of white chemtrail planes have no company logos or any other identifying markings. Their close proximity to one another violates all commercial FAA regulations as well. These are important facts and proof positive that this isn't regular commercial traffic. You now know you are at the very least looking at military flights. An additional proof that these are military planes (although none is needed) is that the flight formation, in the time and space you are noting, will not appear in normal FAA flight records. The FAA does not record military traffic, and will be happy to tell you so.
The next step is to watch for the eye-catching phenomena of the unusual patterns and unusual qualities of trails accompanying such a formation. If you look up in the sky and see several grids and X s forming from this close group of unmarked planes, where normally such patterns do not exist, then here is the chance to build your own proof that chemtrails do exist. If you have been watching the regular flights overhead, then you know that these formations are anomalous. These are not Companies A, B, and C flying their usual routes in their usual ways. And now is the chance to prove to your own satisfaction that these military planes are also discharging something other than jet fuel. Over time, as you have been noting the regularity of commercial air traffic in your local airspace, you will also have been observing the behavior of emissions from normal commercial air traffic. The contrails from these will usually appear to be normal contrails, dissipating in the normal time and manner for the circumstances. By now you will have also established what kind of linear patterns in the atmosphere normal contrails leave, as dictated by the air space commercial traffic must maintain between planes at all times.
Under the very same weather and altitude conditions in which you have been seeing normal commercial traffic emissions produce whatever kind of contrail is normal for your locality, you will most likely now see something else entirely. It is almost always possible to directly observe that these unmarked planes flying in close formation are leaving a very different kind of trail. First of all, as stated, the trails being left are usually in odd checkerboard, grid, X s, stripes, or even circles. This is very distinctly abnormal compared to what you will see resulting from normal airline traffic. Secondly, only these military planes are leaving trails that do not dissipate, as the others do under the very same weather and altitude conditions. Instead, they very slowly spread out over the sky and join together, forming a distinct cloudy haze. This again is easily provable by simple observation. All you have to do is watch this happen over a period of a few hours at the most, and often within a much shorter time span. The standard explanation of ice crystals and contrail formations self-destructs here right before your eyes. Because under the conditions in which we have observed chemtrails, all the other air traffic in the vicinity at the time, at approximately the same altitudes, are leaving normal contrails. These normal contrails are definitely not spreading out and coalescing into a thick hazy "cloud" cover.
Therefore by means of simple patient direct perception of these two distinct types of trails occurring nearly simultaneously, you can see for yourself that a highly sophisticated disinformation campaign is being waged around this issue. There has been a military operation dispersing aerosols of unknown origins, for unknown reasons, throughout our atmosphere for the last couple of years. Whatever these aerosols are, and whatever their purpose is, they are at the very least in direct violation of the law of informed consent and the EPA s own laws of atmospheric discharges.
Much confusion arises due to not taking the time to observe carefully the slow unfolding of the phenomena of chemtrails overhead, as compared to normal contrail formations in the immediate vicinity. We need to take the time first and foremost to establish the image in our minds of what normal contrails actually look like it our own locations. It is not possible to go out and look at the sky every once in a while and try to guess from scratch what we are looking at, with no familiarity with local conditions, weather and routine flight paths. Once we consciously recognize the standard for normal , then we will instantly recognize these anomalies and be able to closely follow how chemtrails unfold in our skies. Extensive research indicates clearly that the military has many reasons for drastically altering the chemistry of our atmosphere at this time. It is to be hoped therefore that rather than dismiss this issue, or leave it to others to investigate the truth of all this, that citizens of our country assume the responsibility for judging for themselves what is happening behind our backs and above our heads.

For the largest collection of detailed and general information on all important aspects of this phenomena, the following website is recommended: http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm
[Great Web Sites to view Contrails/Chemtrails from a Satellite View!]
http://weather.msfc.nasa.gov/
{weather.msfc.nasa.gov/}

http://ge.ssec.wisc.edu/modis-today...y_coastline=true&sector=USA3&resolution=1000m

{ge.ssec.wisc.edu/modis-today/index.php?satellite=a1&product=true_color&date=2011_11_04_308&overlay_sector=false&overlay_state=true&overlay_coastline=true&sector=USA3&resolution=1000m}
 
For the largest collection of detailed and general information on all important aspects of this phenomena, the following website is recommended: http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

Just in case you get a chance to ask Clifford Carnicom, and indeed you really should get this question answered, and report it back here, ask him when he is going to finally apply his college degree to his studies?

What am I speaking about?
[Broken External Image]:http://theworldtruthconference.com/files/2010/10/CliffordCarnicom.jpg

Carnicom holds a Bachelor of Science Cum Laude degree in Surveying and Photogrammetry from the Civil Engineering Department at California State University at Fresno, California.

Photogrammetric Surveying is a form of remote sensing where photogaphs are taken, generally from high altitude or satellite and by using these photos land areas can be surveyed for dimension and topography.

Why are high altitude photos of the ground from an airplane relevant to unidentified aircraft seen from the ground flying at high altitudes in the sky?

Because just as you can take high resolution pictures of the ground from an airplane, one can also take high resolution pictures of an airplane from the ground!

Anyone with a degree in Photogrammetry and Surveying is intimately familiar with exactly what would be required to take very high resolution photographs of aircraft sufficient to identify them. That person would spare no effort doing so and never cease trying to do so until successful, and would teach others how to repeat his findings.

These are the best photos of a "chemtrail" plane Carnicom has ever presented in 12 years:
http://www.carnicominstitute.org/articles/newspray.htm

This is a selection of telescopic photos of USAF airplanes at contrail altitudes taken by a Belgian hobbyist. The photos are of sufficient resolution that the unique aircraft tail numbers can be seen:

http://www.skystef.be/contrail/united-states-air-force.htm

Back to the question. Ask Clifford why he has never used his skills to equal or better the above photos, and report back to us how he answers.

Better yet, just use your "innate capacity" and ask yourself why Clifford would not do so.
Think about it.....
Long time no see, Sedona!
PS,
Clifford has known that what he sees are ordinary commercial flights for a loooooong time.......
 
A good pair of binoculars will reveal that the common type of white chemtrail planes have no company logos or any other identifying markings ... An additional proof that these are military planes (although none is needed) is that the flight formation, in the time and space you are noting, will not appear in normal FAA flight records ... These are not Companies A, B, and C flying their usual routes in their usual ways.

A 'chemtrail' researcher here in NZ has ascertained that commercial airliners are involved in spraying in this country (and others), on normal flight paths, flying in their usual ways. See:

Korean Air
Caught In The Act: Korean Air 129 En Route From Soeul To Auckland On September 28

Air New Zealand
Chemtrail Sprayed Over Whangarei September 27

Easy Jet
Video From Plane Showing Commercial Plane Spraying Chemtrail

Indeed, most of the 'chemtrail' reports originating from NZ are created by commercial flights flying their normal routes. How does this marry up with your theory that it's solely a military operation?
 
[Admin: large cut-and-paste block of text replace with the link to original:]
http://www.rense.com/general11/chemtrailproveit.htm

[Great Web Sites to view Contrails/Chemtrails from a Satellite View!]
http://weather.msfc.nasa.gov/

http://ge.ssec.wisc.edu/modis-today...y_coastline=true&sector=USA3&resolution=1000m

http://ge.ssec.wisc.edu/modis-today...y_coastline=true&sector=USA3&resolution=1000m

My question . . . Where did the sudden increase of aerosols come from??????

NOAA study: Increase in particles high in Earth’s atmosphere has offset some recent climate warming
July 21, 2011

[Admin: large cut-and-paste block of text replace with the link to original:]
http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/csd/news/2011/102_0721.html
 
Industrial pollution and small volcanoes, like it says in the article you linked.
We discussed this issue in some detail a few months ago, including a link to the actual paper
(something that you won't find on any "chemtrails" site, guess why?):
https://www.metabunk.org/threads/11...bunks-quot-Chemtrails-are-Geoengineering-quot

Like Mick posted, mainly volcanoes.
The increase only got stratospheric aerosol levels up to where they were back in the 1960's,
(see top graph in this post)so any claims that geoengineering is taking place must overcome the fact that such levels are not unprecedented and are persistently variable over decades.
 
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