1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    chemtrails and vaccines.
    The anti-vaccine movement (which claims that vaccines cause autism) has long been on the fringes of science. The most well known scientific paper that claimed to demonstrate a link, one by Andrew Wakefield, was eventually retracted after it was not able to be replicated, and the original research was found to be deeply flawed. However the anti-vaxxers never seemed to be quite as fringe as the "chemtrail" movement, with their bizarre theories about how we are being sprayed by toxic chemicals.

    That is, until quite recently.

    There was always some overlap of course. Conspiracy theories form a rough hierarchy of implausibility. People who believe in a highly implausible theory like chemtrails will almost always believe every single theory that is a bit more plausible. So chemtrailers are almost always anti-vaxxers, but anti-vaxxers are less frequently chemtrailers.

    But either the chemtrail movement is becoming more mainstream, or the anti-vaccine movement is becoming far less mainstream. Given increasingly apocalyptic and nonsensical rhetoric that the chemtrail movement has produced over the last year, then I strongly suspect the change here has been with the anti-vaccine movement.

    On Oct 14, 2016 (just last week), there was an anti-vaccine protest at the CDC headquarters in Atlanta. Conditions were right for contrail formation, and many of those present took the trails criss-crossing the sky as being "chemtrails", and some even suggested they might have been sprayed deliberately.
    Many people noted that they felt ill, others noted trails they had seen elsewhere. Some suggested the spraying was deliberate to target the protest, some shared links to chemtrail web sites like geoengineeringwatch.org, some suggested obtaining rocket launchers to shoot down the planes,. Nobody suggested they were just contrails.

    They were in fact just contrails. Not only that, they were contrails that were mostly over ten miles away. If someone was targeting the protestors they were also targeting everyone who worked in the CDC building, and everyone in Atlanta, and several million other people in the Atlanta metro area. In fact if we look at the satellite images for October 14, the contrail conditions covered the entire states of Georgia, Alabama, Louisiana, and much of Florida.

    And here's everything within 120 miles of the CDC protest in Atlanta:

    The map of upper air (30,000 feet) humidity for that day shows why. The green areas are where humidity is high enough for contrails to form (60% and above)

    The CDC is sitting in an ideal location for contrails that day. Not so humid the sky is covered with clouds, but humid enough for contrail formation and persistence.

    But is this group of chemtrail-believing anti-vaxxers just a fringe subset of the movement? No, it actually seems like the adoption of chemtrails by the anti-vaxxers has gone all the way to the top.

    One of the protestors at the CDC was Del Bigtree, who along with Andrew Wakefield created the widely debunked documentary film Vaxxed. Here he is pointing at a "chemtrail".

    Andrew Wakefield himself, a hero in the anti-vaccine movement, appears to have embraced all manner of conspiracy theories. In early 2016 he headlined a "conspiracy-sea" cruise that included everything from crop-circles to mind-control. And while that does not necessarily mean he endorses those beliefs, he does seem to endorse the chemtrail belief. In August this year both Wakefield and Bigtree headlined a joint Vaxxed/Geoengineering (chemtrails) conference organized by Dane Wigington - the most prominent promoter of the chemtrail theory.
    Wakefield said to Wigington: "you are doing an immense service to mankind".

    Bigtree also discusses chemtrails with Dane. Curiously he laments the fact the people who are concerned about things like chemtrails, people he though were "evolved", do not always embrace the anti-vaccine movement. So perhaps the crossover is not quite as distinct as I thought.

    Still that crossover is there, and now Wigington and Wakefield have joined forces it makes it okay for the anti-vaxxers to admit their belief in chemtrails. I'm not sure why the crossover happened, and I'm not sure if there will be any effect. I can't imagine it will help the credibility of the anti-vaccine movement, so perhaps that speaks to some desperation on their part. It will probably help the chemtrailers a little, by aligning them with a very slightly more mainstream movement. However it might backfire, as a lot of people new to chemtrails might see the anti-vaccine link, and be aware that it's pseudoscience because of the more mainstream coverage.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
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  2. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    i think it's just one specific group really and not indicative of the anti-vax community in general. Seems likely Del Bigtree advertised and his supporters (which would believe in chemtrails if they support him and showed up) came because they are heated about the reaction to the vaxxed movie.

    100 people isnt all that many considering The Nation of Islam is pretty well organized it sounds.

  3. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The protest wasn't anything to do with chemtrails though, it was a VAXXED protest, about what they see as a cover-up in the CDC. So I don't think they were really selected for as chemtrail believers.

    The chemtrail thing only came to the surface because of the contrails.
  4. Critical Thinker

    Critical Thinker Senior Member

    Another thing that I have seen to be a commonly held belief among anti-vaxxers and chemtrail conspiracy people has been that many are also anti-GMO/pro-Organic. Most of us that are familiar with the studies into the mindset of CTs, already know that belief in one conspiracy theory is positively correlated with having beliefs in multiple conspiracy theories.

    Document of one study from 1994, however it only covers a small subset of the various CT beliefs and doesn't cover the ones in question.

    Is anyone aware of more recent/relevant studies that show correlations between belief in one specific conspiracy theory and another specific conspiracy theory, that covers these more recent conspiracy theories?
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
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  5. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    probably didnt word what i meant very well. I meant that the very few "parents" ( i counted 11 that i could find) not related to Islam Nation, maybe only knew about the protest from DelTree's Facebook or something.

    the few 'protesters i found linked from your pic above that are claiming 'illness' all are wearing Vaxxed t-shirts or tagging things on FB with "#Vaxxed", #teamvaxxed etc... so they sound like groupies of the movie and DelTree. I believe if Deltree tells them they are being poisoned by chemtrails (or vaccines) they want to believe him. The two ladies i searched through a bit of their FB pages, there was zero talk of chemtrails before teh day of the protest when their 'beloved' DelTree (I'm assuming) told them the trails were making them sick.

    Anyway it seems to me that all the protesters were either "Nation of Islam" or "teamvaxxed". So that's two very specific ('motivated') groups, and is not necessarily indicative of the anti vax movement in general.
    P ANTI-VACCINES PROTEST 5P_00.00.00.21_1476484718824_2171804_ver1.0_640_360.
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  6. Dick Holman

    Dick Holman New Member

    Not quite the papers I was looking for, & the first one is unpublished, so no numbers. I hope this helps to illuminate the current situation.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2016
  7. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Dane is well aware of the relationship between belief in multiple CT's , and so he targets those audiences.
    He did the same with Tea Party folks who he expected would be receptive because of anti-authoritarian views but who eventually rejected him, probably because they weren't as self selected as CT audiences might be.
    By self selected I mean the form of selection in which the more extreme the idea is, the more likely reasonable people will leave the group over time. If that sort of selection continues the group itself gets more unreasonable.
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  8. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Senior Member

    It doesn't seem like a very big leap for a group of people that already believe doctors want to inject poison into everyone to also think that the government wants to spray everyone with poison. Similar logic in both cases. I feel silly for not knowing this but I didn't know Andrew Wakefield was still such an active member of the community. Still surprising to me how someone who blatantly committed intentional fraud hasn't budged after all these years. Thanks for posting.
  9. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

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  10. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    When you wake up to one conspiracy, you lose the trust and you start to question everything you ever accepted with blind faith. The anti-vaxxers have witnessed the correlation between vaccinating their children and the adverse effects. We look up at the sky and see a criss cross lines...sorry, but that isn't what we grew up with. You believe they are mere contrails and some people believe they are toxic chemicals. Some people have done tests and say they contain strontium, barium which aren't healthy for us to be breathing in. Let's face it, a world without all these toxins is what we organic loving human beings would like for us and our children.
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  11. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    Anti-vaxxers have witnessed what toxins do to their children or loved ones. Perhaps, that is why they follow the chemtrail conspiracy and gmo's, because we want to live a more "natural" life, without the bombardment to our immune system.

    And it would be one thing to allow everyone to have the choice to vax or not vax, but the govt is forcing vaccines on us. This needs to stop.
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  12. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    "It doesn't seem like a very big leap for a group of people that already believe doctors want to inject poison into everyone to also think that the government wants to spray everyone with poison."

    We don't believe it is the doctors that want to inject poison into everyone. The doctors are merely following orders to force them on us. The pharmaceutical companies are making billions and they are immune from liability thanks to the 1986 National Childhood Vaccine Act. We, the taxpayers, get to enjoy paying out to the ones that are getting injured and dying. Again, it boils down to having a choice to vax or not vax. Those that want to vax, have at it. Those that want to bypass should be given the right to do so as well.
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2016
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  13. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    I assure you, we aren't "groupies". Our children were robbed of a healthy childhood because we put our blind trust in the system.
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  14. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    I was referring to the very specific people in the OP only. Having looked into them a bit I have great sympathy for these parents, their children do display heartbreaking disabilities, I understand their fear and anger. I also understand the very real psychological need to have something to direct that anger on and the need to try to help/save other children. My disdain is for Andrew Wakeman and Del Bigtree only, for preying on thier pain.
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  15. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    You do have the right not to vax. That's why the medical community is so upset. Noone though has the right to jeopardize babies and children with autoimmune issues that prevent them from receiving vaccinations, that's why vaccines are mandated for attendance in schools.

    Moderator Note - deirdre
    This thread is about anti-vaxxers who also believe in chemtrails and related conspiracy theories. Please stay on topic. There are threads that discuss other vaccine issues elsewhere on this site.

  16. Dan Wilson

    Dan Wilson Senior Member

  17. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    Not injecting the disease into her bloodstream is the preventive measure and boosting her immunity with Vitamin C, Elderberry, etc is the preventive measure.

    So now she is in school without the Tdap. Why can't another healthy child be allowed in school without the Tdap, if that is their choice? Why make us jump through hoops to meet their tyrannical laws?
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  18. tinkertailor

    tinkertailor Senior Member

    Story time:
    When I was in my young teens I spent two months in one of the United State's top children's hospitals, on a small research ward of six rooms. There were a couple of studies going on at the same time, and so I got to meet and interact with quite a few people just in my little ward.
    One of these people I met was a three-year-old boy with leukemia. He was a bubbly, happy boy, but he could barely interact with his mother because his immune system was so weak from the treatment his parents were trying. Unlike myself and the other kids on the ward, his mother could not sleep in the same room as him. Unlike myself and the other kids on the ward, his nurses and doctors had to get suited up to visit him in plastic garments. When I went on my wheelchair rides I could see through a tiny window into his room and it was all plastic, everything was covered in plastic. One day my mom and I saw his mom and invited her into our room because she looked stressed. She talked with us for hours, told us that she hadn't been able to hold her little boy for three weeks. He was three. She wasn't able to hold him, his immune system was so broken down. When she touched him it was through plastic, he couldn't see her smile at him through the face mask she had to wear. She couldn't comfort her uncomfortable child. She told us that if he survived--to this day I don't know if he has--he would have a weak system. He probably wouldn't be able to interact with kids like he was supposed to. He wouldn't be able to go to parks or even to schools because he could get sick and something as simple as the common cold could kill him.
    Then there was the sixteen-year-old girl who had just had a double lung transplant. You read that correctly: double lung transplant. A very rare operation, dangerous too. We would often run into each other on our walks, her weezing along on her walker and me in my wheelchair. Before she got sick she was a straight-A student wanting to be a lawyer, now she was going to graduate high schools years later than her friends, homeschooled probably because--again--they didn't know how her body would react. If she got the cold or whooping cough it would kill her, if she wasn't killed by the rejection. Again, I don't know if she is alive today.
    There was the young couple in the weekly knitting/crochet group, who were in their early twenties and had just had a baby. When we inevitably talked about the who-are-you what's-your-story why-are-you-heres that hospitals dredge forth in conversation they told me that their preemie newborn had a heart condition--holes in her heart. I think she may have had surgery on it, maybe more than one surgery. The mother was picking up knitting pretty fast, getting a baby blanket banged out really quick. The father's attempts at crocheted baby washcloths were lopsided, but we all knew that he was excited for the moment that he would be able to use them on his daughter, when she was home. For the foreseeable future though, they knew they'd be at the hospital for some time.
    I had a friend there; we used to paint pictures together in art. Every week for six or seven weeks we painted together and talked. Truth be told, I don't know what was "wrong" with him, why he was there. He slurred his words, he was in a wheelchair like me except his was automated. He had mobility issues with his arms. I looked forward to painting with him every week. When I got out of the hospital I said goodbye to him. Months later, I came back to visit. I asked my favorite child-life specialist if he had gotten out and she told me through tears that he'd died. I don't know what killed him, but I know that he got out of the hospital.

    When you're a kid and you're sick, you are already robbed of your childhood. At an age when I should have been making friends and going to the mall, I was stuck in a hospital on bed rest for two months, and that's not counting the additional months I spent on bed rest out of the hospital--six months total. At an age when these kids should have been safe in their mothers, or studying for AP exams, or being cuddled, or playing basketball, they were also stuck on the sixth and seventh floors of a hospital building in a big city, some of them quite far from home. I missed out on a lot, and my disease was nothing compared to others'.

    All of the above people could easily have been considered immunocompromised--that is, their immune system being so weak that they are unable to even have vaccinations. That means that in the event that they survived--a slim chance in a few of the above examples--they would still have to be careful for the rest of their lives about germs. And I would be all for people choosing not to vaccinate their kids, or at least less against it, if immunocompromised people were able to be safely vaccinated and protected. Really, I would.

    So here's the issue with your little comment on your kids' childhoods being taken away by "blind trust in the system", coming straight from a person who has been there and seen it and still thinks about it daily:
    These people would be so so SO happy to be able to vaccinate their children, but they can't. And people who choose to look away from science, from the tons of studies done again and again and again that debunk all the vaccine myths the anti-vaccine groups peddle, are endangering kids' lives. And it isn't just kids. Adults, too. HIV+ people. People who have already been robbed in the genetic lottery. All these people are affected by vaccination rates DIRECTLY. Scientifically. Clearly. With links and proof, peer reviewed, the whole shebang. It isn't just about one's own kids. It's about the community as a whole, and caring for society in general.
    Every time I read something anti-vax I think about all those people I met in the hospital and I feel physically ill.

    This is why we vaccinate.
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  19. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Moderator Note - deirdre
    If you have further questions about contrails please start a new thread following the posting guidelines. We have let you ask questions and make assertions here since you are an anti-vaxxer who believes in chemtrails and your input is valuable in that sense. But it seems you are not listening to any information provided you in this thread. This isnt the appropriate thread to teach you all about clouds and contrails in full.

    Again, any further discussion should go in the appropriate thread. If you need help finding a specific contrail topic you are interested in ask a member for help. you can also check out http://contrailscience.com/

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  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

  21. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    This site is so blatantly biased. You leave Tinkertailor's rant on vaccines which should have been deemed "off topic" and you move my thread to a closed off one from the public. I think I figured out who is doing the research for "snopes" (aka, government agency)
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  22. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    haha, actually, no I don't like it here anymore. I have no problem that you guys are a debunking site working for the govt., my problem is that it's a waste of time when you guys are so blatantly biased. please remove me from this govt site so I wont waste anymore of my time and likely get hacked.

    i do not like it here.
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  23. Norma Rae

    Norma Rae Closed Account

    You would think that it would be easy to delete an account. Where are your instructions on how to delete an account? Or please do it for me. I don't want to waste my time on such a blatantly biased website. delete acct.
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  24. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    Mick already told you how to delete an account in PM. Deleting your account wont erase your messges though, just in case that's what you wre thinking.
  25. T W Huning

    T W Huning New Member

    "fringes of science" What in the world are the "fringes of science" objectively? I assume the fringes of science are still science. "Fringes of science" sounds highly subjective and prejudicial. Seems like an indirect argumentum ad hominem to me. Was e=mc2 on the fringe cutting edge?
  26. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    you could always google the definition of the phrase.
  27. T W Huning

    T W Huning New Member

    "If we have data, let's look at the data. if all we have is opinions let's go with mine. -barksdale


    There is no data at all regarding vaccines presented in the above essay by Mr. West. It is not a scientific debate of the matter. It does not scientifically with data debunk (the word bunk would be more logical) anything. It is essentially an op-ed piece.

    It may be incorrect in some respects. "In 1998, Wakefield, Prof. John Walker Smith, Dr. Simon Burch, and 10 other co-authors published a paper in the Lancet, a British Medical Journal, which showed a possible correlation between the MMR vaccine and resultant gastrointestinal dysfunction along with developmental delays and autism. Though the paper itself did not state a conclusive causal effect, it did state the need for further study into the possibility that the MMR shot was to blame. Wakefield went on to publicly bring attention to the possibility, criticizing the MMR shot and calling for separation of the three vaccines." ..."Wakefield continues to defend the paper he and his co-authors published and he continues to state the need for the MMR vaccine to be discontinued and individual shots to be manufactured and distributed instead." Natural News (emphasis added) Apparently Dr. Wakefield is not an "anti-vaccer".

    Learn more:
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 3, 2016
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  28. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member


    how does your quote*, negate what Mick wrote? Mick said
    from wakefields paper itself
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2016
  29. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    It's not supposed to be a debate about vaccines. It's an article about the cross-fertilisation between two fringe conspiracy theories. If you want to discuss Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent and discredited studies then there are other threads to do so.
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  30. T W Huning

    T W Huning New Member

    Nowhere is it stated in the above summary that MMR vaccine causes autism. It is pointing out a POSSIBLE connection that should be looked into further.
    Also, the interpretation in the above summary mentions possible environmental triggers.
    We identified associated gastrointestinal disease and developmental regression in a group of previously normal children, which was generally associated in time with possible environmental triggers. "The most well known scientific paper that claimed to demonstrate a link, one by Andrew Wakefield..." is misleading on two counts. Firstly, the paper had 13 authors. Secondly, in statements that he has made subsequently Dr. Wakefield may have expressed his belief that the trivalent vaccine leads to autism, but the paper did not claim a definite, proven connection. I am pointing out that Mr. West in the above piece has not bunked anything regarding vaccines. The piece is about conflating people who have doubts about vaccines with people who belive there are chemtrails? This "debunks" nothing. What is the purpose? One can't bunk chemtrails by attacking people who believe they exist. That is argumentum ad hominem and it is not valid. Mr. West did an excellant job of bunking the cruise missile with the airline markings, but this post bunks nothing regarding vaccines. "how does your quote*, negate what Mick wrote?" It "negates", contradicts, this statement: The most well known scientific paper that claimed to demonstrate a link, one by Andrew Wakefield.... The paper was about a possible link. The paper was not by Andrew Wakefield; it was by Andrew Wakefield, John Walker Smith, Simon Burch, et alia. ps. If you are going to remove from public view references and comments and opposing views that you don't want people to see, FORGET IT !! A control freak stifling other peoples views. A typical intolerant closed minded censoring libtard who is not interested in rational discussion. GROW UP! Cancel my registration and do not send me any e-letters. This is clearly a political site. "so", what a smart alec irrational childish response that was. You have wasted hours of my time. BYE!!
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2016
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  31. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    But this article is not about Wakefield. It is about the antivaccine movement, which is far bigger than any one author or paper. Neither is it trying to debunk anything. The claims about vaccines and the claims about chemtrails are widely discussed elsewhere on this site. This article is simply drawing attention to a seemingly new development in which two large conspiracy theory movements are coming together.
  32. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    he isnt trying to debunk anything about vaccines, this thread is about anti-vaxxers also believing in chemtrail theory.

    You need to learn how to use the 'x' icon in your comment box, so people can follow your posts. You can read up on how to post properly in the "how to" forum.

    as Mick stated, the paper demonstrates a link. In fact it goes out of it's way to suggest the environmental factor was the MMR shot. No other possible environmental factor were mentioned. If a link wasnt demonstrated why would Wakefield bother to say more studies needed to be done.

    I'm sorry you dont agree that
    is demonstrating a link.

    But, again, this thread is about anti-vaxxers who believe in chemtrails. Your semantic interpretation has been noted. Any more discussion about it in this thread will be deleted as off topic.
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  33. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    the purpose is examining bunk and "areas" that bunk proliferates, how it spreads etc.
  34. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Read the quote @deirdre posted above. Metabunk also discusses bunk at a meta level (hence the name), i.e. the reasons that bunk spreads and the means by which it does so. Here it seems that a very "fringe" conspiracy theory (chemtrails) is being absorbed and promoted by followers of a slightly more mainstream, but still fringe, movement (anti-vaccine).
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  35. MikeC

    MikeC Closed Account

    Each thread is about its own topic - trying to change the topic in a thread is not allowed - start a new thread for a new topic.

    this one is about links between chemtrail belief and anti-vax belief - nothing else.

    As has been suggested if you want to discuss something else then either find a thread on that topic or start one.