1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    These figures of the concentration of aluminum in rain and snow match WITWATS/Mangels figures quite well, 520 ug/l to 1120 ug/L


    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  2. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    A biblography of articles pertaining to the subject. Use of keyword search for words such as trace metals, aluminum, barium, strontium, etc. will get you some good references. I would like to find some of these online as historical references thouroughly debunk the present claims that something has changed in he past ten years correlating to purported geoengineering.

    A bibliography : the long-range transport of air pollutants and acidic precipitation

  3. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  4. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's a problem. And one that is probably illustrated by the wildly different test results they get.

    What they really need to do is take multiple samples on the same day.

  5. tryblinking

    tryblinking Member

    Well, quite. It seems that in this context the sets of 'chemtrail believers' and 'skilled personnel' may not only fail to intersect, but turn out to be mutually exclusive.
  6. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member


  7. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Strontium deposition comes from dust and marine sources


    Weathering versus atmospheric sources of strontium in ecosystems on young volcanic soils
    Peter M. Vitousek, Martin J. Kennedy, Louis A. Derry and Oliver A. Chadwick

    See preview@ above URL. The authors have done some work quantifying atmospheric strontium depostion derived from both terrestrial and marine sources

    some of Vitousek's data:
  8. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    This is an excellent overview of atmospheric deposition

  9. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    So...I assume one would expect to find aluminum in hail...what about barium? Barium is also found in dust isn't it??

    I am guessing that hail is quite susceptible to containing all sorts of particulate matter as it is formed from strong convective up drafts in strong thunderstorms...??

    Anthony Hilder's latest masterpiece is this classic interview...no real data just outlandish claim after outlandish claim...

    Interview from "Conspiracy Con" - I did not know that existed...not surprised I guess:

  10. firepilot

    firepilot New Member

    Hilder has a cottage industry out of conspiracy videos.

    The aircrap site is him just trying to corner the market on it, and rebrand it as "death dumps", so he can sell more videos.
  11. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    So do we know for sure that aircrap is Hilder's?
  12. firepilot

    firepilot New Member

    Yes, its his site, he founded it.
  13. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  14. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    That's a terrible technique, as it's going to have all the dust that the surface of the plastic trays collect. That will have lots of mineral dust in it, hence lots of aluminum. It's not coming from the rain though, just windborne dust.
  15. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    In WITWATS, While standing near his home, Dane Wigington said:
    I'm interested in seeing what study he refers to, but haven't found any references given.
    While looking, I found this 2003 paper at the CARB website:
    Asian aerosols in North America: Extracting the chemical composition and mass concentration of the Asian continental aerosol plume from long-term aerosol records in the western United States

    Figure 7 in the paper shows aluminum constitutes 1.5% of the Asian dust aerosol
    This paper characterizes asian dust in British Columbia, Canada, and states:

    "Filter samples in the region show a massive injection of crustal
    elements (Si, Fe, Al, and Ca) with concentrations of Si approximately double those
    previously recorded. Ratios of these elements to Fe are shown to be statistically similar to
    ratios observed in mineral aerosol events in Hawaii and China. On the basis of the
    difference between observed and expected elemental concentrations and reconstructed soil
    mass in the episode, it is estimated that Asian dust contributed 38–55% to observed PM10
    in the Lower Fraser Valley, the remainder being attributed to local sources."
    http://www.geog.ubc.ca/~ian/Long-ra...r Fraser Valley, British Columbia, Canada.pdf

    Figure 6 of the paper shows Al ranked third in abundance, below Si and S, and above Fe.
  16. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    It's a bit of a straw man though, as nobody is claiming that China is the sole source of these metals, or even a major source.

    See also in:


    Aluminum is so ubiquitous in the dust that they use it as a baseline to calculate the "Aluminum elemental ratios" of the other elements (i.e. how much of that element there is relative to aluminum).


    Aluminum is of course implicitly present on the graph with a value of 1. About the same as Iron.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
  17. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Trace metals in rain and snow during 1973 at Chadron, Nebraska


    The average level of aluminum given above, 3.5 x 10-7 grams/cm3 is equal to 350 micrograms/liter.
  18. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  19. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    You are quite right.
    These Long Island, NY samples were all taken at the same time:

    Aluminum results were 15ug/L, 82ug/L, 13 ug/L, and 20 ug/L

    So, you have one result four times the other three, yet from the same rainfall.
    As you can see, this went straight over Francis Mangels' head.
  20. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Average Aluminum Concentration from Data at coalitionagainstgeoengineering.com

    Yes, indeed, Mick. The average aluminum content of rain in the 1967 study you quote above was 800 ug/L and for snow 460 ug/L.

    I went to the "Test Data" link at Michael J. Murphy's Coalition Against Geoengineering website, went through all of his samples of snow and rain,
    from 2007 through 2011, then found the average.

    Michael J. Murphy constantly claims that his samples show abnormally high levels of aluminum in rainwater.

    An analysis of his own results proves his claim to be false. The average aluminum concentration in his samples was 484 ug/L.
    His samples show that average levels of aluminum in rain & snow are currently LOWER than they were over 40 years ago.

    He needs to retract that claim.

    Sample Date Location Aluminum Level (µg/L)
    12/27/2007 Italy 13
    3/1/2007 East Lake Shasta, CA (snow) 7.2
    4/14/2007 East Lake Shasta, CA 88
    4/21/2007 East Lake Shasta, CA 27.2
    5/4/2007 East Lake Shasta, CA 33.2
    1/31/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA (snow) 368
    2/23/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 262
    3/18/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 2190
    4/21/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 650
    5/22/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 188
    5/29/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 881
    10/4/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 84
    11/1/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA 815
    11/11/2008 East Lake Shasta, CA (lightning storm)3450
    3/21/2009 Mt. Shasta, CA 1540
    3/22/2009 Mt. Shasta, CA 41
    3/28/2009 Mt. Shasta, CA 853
    10/14/2009 Mt. Shasta, CA 611
    7/10/2010 Maui, HI 400
    7/26/2010 Maui, HI 219
    1/14/2011 Long Island, NY (snow) 15
    1/14/2011 Long Island, NY (snow) 82
    1/14/2011 Long Island, NY (snow) 13
    1/14/2011 Long Island, NY (snow) 20
    2/21/2011 Big Bear, CA (snow) 38.8
    5/17/2011 Orinda, CA 118
    5/17/2011 Orinda, CA 66.9
    Average 484.2333333
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  21. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I am considering challenging the chemmies to conduct a simple science experiment, one which anyone can do fairly cheaply.
    Hypothesis: Aluminum oxide will increase the pH of soil

    According to the patent claimed being used by the chemmies,
    Here is the aluminum oxide, 50 micron:

    Any thoughts on this?
  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Sounds like a reasonable experiment. Technically you'd have to only add a very small amount one day at a time to match the theorized distribution. But any actual data point is good.

    Who do you think might do it though? They all seem a bit resistant to science.
  23. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  24. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    The study collected rainwater in acid washed plastic containers during 1991, which they call "wet deposition". They did not analyze for all elements, they selected a few to check for. Their results did not seek a concentration of elements in the rain, rather they sought to determine the total amount of each element which was deposited on a square meter. They found that out of the elements they checked for, the most abundant was aluminum:

  25. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  26. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

  27. Steve Funk

    Steve Funk Active Member

    Mangels claims that the aluminum concentration at his place has increased from 1.3 to 1.6%. A liter of soil typically weighs 1,300 to 1,500 grams. 0.3% of that would be about 4 grams of aluminum, or approximately 8 grams of Al2O3. Might be interesting. Maybe I will order a container of the dental powder. I could do a preliminary test at home, and send a sample of each to the lab for confirmation.
  28. Unregistered

    Unregistered Guest

    its not that hard to figure out, even if the dust gets in the trays, if there is a significant amount more aluminum on chemtrailing days, it's because the atmosphere and the "dust" is full of chemtrails. It's really not that f*****g hard to tell when you have a massive pollutant being sprayed into the atmosphere... Barium isn't going to come out of lightbulbs and go into dust and magically appear in quantities that are above EPA limits on chemtrailing days. You point out imperfections in experiments done by people who have love... (the ones who usually don't have a boatload of cash) - versus the experiments done by those with greed (lots of cash and corrupt). Read the Bible, it talks about this whole thing about how greedy people and deception will destroy the world. Harold is a good man, and he does what he does because it's obvious we are being poisoned..

    How exactly would one be able to tell if there were chemtrails? Because apparently nobody with millions of dollars - no it's not even that, the Illuminati, yes Illuminati control everything so tight and hell there is so much proof towards chemtrails now.... debunking... what a lame word.. You know I personally know of and have seen people get shot killed and arrested for trying to expose the EPA in certain parts of this country? Where my girlfriend grew up, a few scientists were found dead underneath their house, shortly after they had told people they were going to expose some seriously skewed EPA lab results, because the EPA told them that even if the results are above limits, you report them as being just below the limits. I understand this website aims to rationally prove things, but what is going on is NOT rational, its insanity, and it takes one to know one I guess....
  29. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Is there more aluminum on "chemtrailing days"? Test done in Hawaii by Dr. Lorrin Pang show no correlation between perceived "Chemtrailing" and the levels of aluminum in rainwater.

    You also have to eliminate confounding factors. If the contrails are due to an incoming front, then it would not be surprising that they would be followed by higher dust levels, as the first rains will naturally have higher dust content than later rains.
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2013
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  30. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    Roseanne Barr is a multi-millionaire who has joined the chemtrails promotion. She could easily hire a private jet to go up and get a sample. I doubt that she ever will, by your logic, she won't because she is controlled by the Illuminati? Unregsitered, I suggest you begin a campaign to draft her into the project. Go ahead, I'll be here waiting to see the results.
    • Like Like x 1
  31. Belfrey

    Belfrey Senior Member

    Found this 1978 paper which gives some sample results for strontium in rain and snow:

    Ichikuni, M. 1978. Calcite as a Source of Excess Calcium in Rainwater. Journal of Geophysical Research 8(C12): 6249-6252.

    Here is the results table:


    Because they were mainly interested in the source of the calcium, the strontium is only given as a Sr/Ca ratio. However, from that one can calculate the strontium content:

    Ca (ppm) Sr/Ca*10^-3 Sr (ppb)
    0.96 3.96 3.8016
    0.96 4.22 4.0512
    1.1 5.28 5.808
    0.48 10.5 5.04
    3.61 2.84 10.2524
    1.89 2.48 4.6872
    8.05 3.55 28.5775
    1.54 3.48 5.3592
    2.28 5.88 13.4064
    22.9 3.26 74.654
    8.3 2.56 21.248
    3.42 5.12 17.5104

    I'll also paste below the data on aluminum that I posted on another thread, for those who pull this up in a search, since this is a very useful thread.

    Vermette, S.J., and V.G. Bingham. 1986. Trace Elements in Frobisher Bay Rainwater. Arctic 39(2): 177-179.
    Here is the table of results, showing Al measurements ranging from 150 to 1300 parts per billion:

    Duce, R.A., G.L. Hoffman, W.H. Zoller. 1975. Atmospheric Trace Metals at Remote Northern and Southern Hemisphere Sites: Pollution or Natural? Science 187(4171): 59-61.
    Elements given (in nanograms per standard cubic meter) from air samples:
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2013
  32. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I've seen Patrick Roddie recently make this claim:

    Note he is speaking of airborne aluminum. He doesn't give a reference and doesn't respond to questions, so I went looking but haven't found results yet. If anyone knows whether this is true I'd like to know.

    In my search I did run across an EPA paper discussing their air monitoring circa 1998.
    The key term here is speciation, where the elemental or compounds found in airborne sampling is analyzed to determine the source, quantity and variability.

    Guideline on Speciated Particulate Monitoring

    These quotes were interesting as they pertain to geological material found airborne:
    2.2 Major Chemical Components
    Most of the PM2.5 or PM10 mass in urban and nonurban areas can be explained by a
    combination of the following chemical components:
    • Geological Material: Suspended dust consists mainly of oxides of aluminum, silicon,
    calcium, titanium, iron, and other metal oxides (Chow and Watson, 1992. The precise
    combination of these minerals depends on the geology of the area and industrial
    processes such as steel-making, smelting, mining, and cement production. Geological
    material is mostly in the coarse particle fraction (Houck et al., 1990), and typically
    constitutes ~50% of PM10 while only contributing 5 to 15% of PM2.5 (Watson et al.,

    [NOTE-JR-PM2.5 are particle less than 2.5 micron and PM10 are particles 10 microns and larger]

    Sodium, aluminum, silicon, potassium, calcium, iron, and zinc are abundant only in the
    coarse particle fraction (PM10 minus PM2.5), consistent with expected contributions from marine
    aerosol (e.g., sodium) and suspended dust (e.g., aluminum, silicon, calcium, iron). The
    proportion of geological material in PM10 varies from site to site, with over 80% of PM10
    attributable to geological material in Las Vegas, NV (Chow et al., 1995a; Chow and Watson,
    1997a) and less than 20% in San Jose, CA (Chow et al., 1995b).

    2.3 Properties that Quantify Source Contributions
    The relative abundance of chemical components in an ambient PM2.5 sample reflects the
    chemical composition of the source emissions in the monitored environment. Chemical source
    profiles are the fractional mass abundances of measured chemical species relative to primary PM2.5
    mass in source emissions.
    Figures 2-4 through 2-7 show source profile examples for the common PM2.5 emitters of:
    (1) geological material, (2) motor vehicle exhaust, (3) wood and coal burning, and (4) coal-fired
    power generators (Watson et al., 1996a). In each of these illustrations the height of each bar
    indicates the average fractional abundance for the indicated chemical, while the dot shows the
    standard deviation of the average. When the height of the bar exceeds the position of the dot, and
    when the height of the bar is much higher than it is in other profiles, the corresponding species
    is considered as a good marker for that source type.

    Figure 2-4 shows the similarities and differences among chemical abundances in three
    sub-types of PM2.5 geological emitters: (1) paved road dust, (2) unpaved road dust, and (3)
    natural soils. Aluminum (Al), silicon (Si), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), and iron (Fe) have large
    abundances with low variabilities. The total potassium (K) abundance is 15 to 30 times the
    abundance of soluble potassium (K+). Aluminum (Al), potassium (K), calcium (Ca), and iron (Fe)
    abundances are similar among the profiles, but the silicon (Si) abundances range from 14% in
    unpaved road dust to 20% in paved road dust.

    This Figure 2-4 is very interesting since it shows details of ordinary soil found in Colorado, not nationally representative but you can get the idea of how atmospheric scientists typify soil by the elements usually found and use certain more abundant soil elements and compounds as a "marker" for the type of elemental profile found in a sample:
    In this case aluminum, silicon, calcium and iron definitely would be markers!

    natural soil speciation profile.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  33. MikeG

    MikeG Senior Member

    I found a 2014 example of EPA testing of HVAC filters in Chicago. Aluminum was included in the test results.

    I found this on the EPA website. It addresses amendments to air toxicity standards in aluminum production.


    It seems that the EPA is more interested in industrial byproducts of aluminum production than actual aluminum particulate levels in the atmosphere.


    Attached Files:

    • Useful Useful x 1
  34. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member