1. Mike Fl

    Mike Fl New Member

    Can someone debunk this claim that it is only 9:10 AM according to shadow analysis?
  2. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    Check for daylight savings time error.
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  3. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I did time stamping of Sandy Hook photos in this thread:

    there is my KMZ file with this analysis in #58

    It looks like the author of the OP video incorrectly determined the shadow direction. I got a much later time of about 11 AM for the same arrangement of cars and shadows around the fire house in Photo #1.

    EDIT(2): He cheated a bit while using SunCalc tool. He used the shadow of the wall corner, the footprint of which does not align with the roof corner but lays inside it. The edge of the wall corner shadow goes along the green arrow (that points toward the Sun):
    Screen shot 2014-10-12 at 16.57.04.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
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  4. deirdre

    deirdre Moderator Staff Member

    if its an aerial view it is 11:00 at least. the channel 12 helicopter didn't arrive until about 11:10.

    This man (video below) uses the dashcam video to show/match the time of the first helicopter arrival. The original debunk (full) is in a video he made called "deadliest minute" but I haven't watched that one.

    Although I cant tell where your video got that 'shadow angle' from because none of the other shadows there go at those angles. ??

    Also you can show when the triage station was set up at the firehouse and when ambulances arrived, through the police reports.

    starts @1:09 (but look for his original video ; )
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
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  5. Hama Neggs

    Hama Neggs Senior Member

    I'm trying to understand your analysis, but can't parse the above sentence.
  6. WilliamSeger

    WilliamSeger New Member

    The main problem with this "analysis" is that the guy aligned with the corner of the roof, neglecting both the perspective (note that we can see the southwest wall), and the roof overhang. Any attempt at a better alignment with where the corner would be at ground level shows that the time is definitely after 10 AM. [...][​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2014
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  7. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    Sorry about this, I have rephrased the sentence. What I wanted to say is that in the OP video the direction of shadow is determined at the corner of the building. This corner is made by the walls. Due to the roof edges overhanging the walls, the position of this corner is not visible in the aerial photograph but it can be inferred. Alternatively, one can use the visible position of the grey step near the corner (green arrow), as the line going along the edge of the shadow (orange arrow) passes close to it:
    Screen shot 2014-10-12 at 18.42.30.

    This gives the time of the video after 11 AM (16:00 UTC - 5)
    Screen shot 2014-10-12 at 18.35.31.
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
  8. Jason

    Jason Senior Member

    Can't the Firetruck also be used to determine the time of day. If we were to figure out the height of the firetruck would it make things simpler.

  9. WeedWhacker

    WeedWhacker Senior Member

    Aren't the 9/11 call time-stamps proof??
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  10. OK Sherlock Holmes, facts like that are pretty damn strong. No need to confuse the CTists to point of cruelty (Pure sarcasm, WW! Please resume crueling!):cool:
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  11. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Yeah, but you've got to get into the mind of the theorist, who thinks everything is fake, so the only actual evidence that means anything is errors in the fake. Glitches in the matrix.
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  12. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    There must be something wrong in your SunCalc input. The day time (>11h between sunrise and sunset) is too long for 14 December at this latitude and the solar noon at ~10:40 is too early for this time zone.
  13. WilliamSeger

    WilliamSeger New Member

    Yeah, you're right. I played with it some more and it seems you can't enter a date -- you have to actually step through the calendar month by month -- and also it seems to be perhaps showing my local (Mountain) time on the time bar instead of the Eastern time at the location. But here's the output from the Naval Observatory calculator between 9 AM and noon:

    Astronomical Applications Dept.
    U.S. Naval Observatory
    Washington, DC 20392-5420

    o , o ,
    W 73 19, N41 25

    Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun
    Dec 14, 2012
    Eastern Standard Time

    Altitude Azimuth
    (E of N)

    h m o o
    09:00 14.6 140.5
    09:10 15.7 142.6
    09:20 16.8 144.7
    09:30 17.9 146.8
    09:40 18.9 149.0
    09:50 19.8 151.2
    10:00 20.7 153.5
    10:10 21.5 155.8
    10:20 22.2 158.1
    10:30 22.9 160.5
    10:40 23.5 162.9
    10:50 24.0 165.4
    11:00 24.4 167.8
    11:10 24.8 170.3
    11:20 25.0 172.9
    11:30 25.2 175.4
    11:40 25.3 177.9
    11:50 25.4 180.5
    12:00 25.3 183.0

    I'd say that the shadow is at least 170 degrees azimuth (11:10 AM), and probably closer to 175 (11:30 AM).

    (Edit: It looks like the time in the OP video is not Eastern, either: It's also showing 10:40 for solar noon, when it should be a little before 11:50, by the Naval Observatory calc.)
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2014
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  14. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    Yes, this is a very good point. The time in the OP video is for a wrong time zone. If it were EST, even this flawed calculation would give time after 10 AM, that is, after the shooting.
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  15. WilliamSeger

    WilliamSeger New Member

    I just went to Yahoo to see if there was any response to comments I posted yesterday, and now it says, "This video is private."
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  16. NoParty

    NoParty Senior Member

    If only the MSM (or real life) could bury mistakes as easily as YouTubers do...
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  17. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    I remember that in the comments somebody asked for and got the permission to copy this video but I cannot find now who it was. Is there a way to recover a cache with comments?

    Also, the burying this mistake has already left some FB users puzzled:
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  18. WilliamSeger

    WilliamSeger New Member

    Your second Facebook page had links to both the original and a copy. I posted similar comments on that copy, and within an hour, that copy had also been removed
  19. Gouchybear

    Gouchybear New Member

    Please understand I am NOT trying to stir anything up, but rather trying to understand the use of SunCalc and why you (or someone else) chose to use the sun angles from the building when the sun angle can clearly be seen in reference to the light poles long the left edge of the photograph?
    Also, I'm confused by the shadows cast by the trees; specifically the shadows from the trees on the left side of the photo are cast to the right (the same as the the shadows from the light poles) while the trees on the right side of the photo cast shadows to the left, but the building casts no shadows at all, in any direction (except for the thin shadow cast backward on the roof from roughly the 5:00 o'clock to 11:00 o'clock position).
    Again, NOT trying to cause any trouble, but can someone help me understand how is it possible for shadows to be cast in so many different directions from the same light source (the sun) at the same time?
    Thank you for your patience in explaining this to me...
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 24, 2016
  20. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    The photo you are looking at is a Google Earth image from 9/20/2013. If you zoom out on that image it becomes a bit clearer.


    The base image is not taken from directly overhead, so the pole shadows are a little confusing. What you interpreted as a shadow is actually the pole itself. It's sometimes useful ( understanding Google Earth images) to rotate the image to match the view direction. To do this, rotate until the corner edges of the building are vertical on screen (which also makes the poles vertical).


    EDIT: The above might still be confusing, as it's indicating the direction of the sun when viewed from overhead. It matches the direction of shadows on flat ground left by vertically aligned objects, but is not the full 3D direction of the sun. It is, however the direction you need for SunCalc.

    Trees are a poor choice for calculating shadows because the part of the tree that is at the top of the shadow is rarely directly above the base of the tree, and the base of the tree is often obscured, and many type of tree do not have vertical trunks.

    Utility poles are better, but they can lean a bit, and corners of buildings are generally perfectly vertical, however it's only accurate on flat ground, and you've got to be careful to make sure you are not using a sloping roof.

    Notice here how the pole shadows vary, partly due to the slope of the ground.

    But also due to the fact the poles, unlike building corners, are frequently not perfectly vertical.
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2016
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  21. Trailspotter

    Trailspotter Senior Member

    This is not the photograph, the shadows in which had been analysed here, but a default Google Earth/Google Map image used by SunCalc. The shadow directions were taken from the youtube video in OP, which is no longer available. As far as I remember, there were no shadows from the light poles, just from the corner of the building and a few cars, like in one remaining screenshot in my post #7
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  22. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    There are pole shadows in the wider shot, although they are largely obscured. All the shadows are consistent here. But as I noted above, using a building corner is going to give you the best vertical.
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