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  1. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    A recent tweet By Jim Lee prompted me to look into an old story:

    Source: https://twitter.com/rezn8d/status/807229209659711488



    To understand what this means you need a little context. It's referring to the "chemtrails" conspiracy theory, which basically says the government is spraying stuff out of aircraft for some purpose. Frequently proponents of the theory name three common metallic elements (Aluminum, Barium, and Strontium) as being sprayed for either weather control, or climate modification. They test for these metals in soil and water, and find them because they are common in the environment. Jim Lee has his own version of the theory which is that the government is adding stuff to jet fuel. He's suggesting here that Stadis 450 (an anti-static jet fuel additive) has barium in it, and hence barium in Jet Fuel.

    There are a couple of problems with this theory:
    1. There's no barium in Stadis 450, the elemental ingredients are: carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, and sulfur.
    2. It's added to the fuel at under 5 parts per billion, too small to do anything when diluted in the atmosphere.
    So how did we get here? Well there are some precursors in the very early version of the chemtrail theory (pre-geoengineering) which started over fears that military jet fuel JP-8 was toxic. So back then then they would look at the ingredients of the JP-8 blend, one of which was Stadis 450, like back in 2002 on the Chemtrail Central forum.
    Then on "Educate Yourself" in 2005
    But the modern version of the Stadis 450 myth dates back to February 2009 to the defunct site chemtrails.cc, which said:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2009022...s.cc/2009/02/16/the-not-so-secret-ingredient/
    This is demonstrably false. Firstly static dissipators like Stadis have no metal content, and neither of the two links given mention metals. In fact the Stadis data sheet (from 2011) quite specifically says it contains no metals.
    https://www.fmv.se/FTP/M7789-000193/datablad/M0729-465015_Stadis_450PDS.pdf
    20161209-132050-iccnd.

    What seems to be the source of the error is that the writer on chemtrails.cc confused "dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid" (which is a listed ingredient in Stadis) with "dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid, barium salt" (which is not), because they were both listed in the EPA document. But they are very different chemicals. One contains barium, and the other (the one in Stadis) does not.

    The "EPA study" that would continue to be cited as proof that barium was in Stadis does not even mention Stadis 450!. It is not a study of what is in anything, it's just a study of four forms of dinonylnaphthalene, including the one that's in Stadius, but has no barium in it.

    Like many things in the chemtrail mythology these errors were pointed out immediately, but then ignored and the story was repeated.

    In April 2009 it showed up on one of the older chemtrail sites Agriculture Defense Coalition.

    In Nov 2009, in the Alex Jones "Prison Planet" forum

    In 2010 it came up on my other site, Contrail Science
    I responded at the time, noting barium was not actually in Stadis
    The next year(2011) it showed up on Geoengineering Watch as a possible explanation for the "high" levels of barium they had been finding (although they think "chemtrails" are more likely).
    In 2012 Harold Saive posted a video in which he claimed the EPA study found barium in Stadis (it did not, see above). Basically this was just repeating the myth.

    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiMXbjKaVoY

    In 2013 Jim Lee posted here on Metabunk, claiming that barium was in Stadis, unfortunately it was not sufficiently point out to him that it wasn't, so he seems to continue to think that it was, posting on his site in 2015.


    The link he gives (barium salt fuel additive) goes to a Wikipedia page that notes it is the acid, not the barium salt, that is used in Stadis. So again, no barium.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinonylnaphthylsulfonic_acid
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Dec 11, 2016
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  2. SR1419

    SR1419 Senior Member

    Am I missing something? Are they spelled identically but different?

    Have you sent the correct information via twitter ? Did Jim Lee acknowledge it?
     
  3. Spectrar Ghost

    Spectrar Ghost Senior Member

    Bolded the two names. You cut off the end of the second one. It is also known as Barium dinonylnaphthalenesulfonate.
     
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  4. CeruleanBlu

    CeruleanBlu Member

    I was confused by this too, until I looked a bit deeper. Please someone correct this if wrong!

    First, notice you failed to copy the full quote, which was "dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid, barium salt" with the comma, and the words barium salt. this is a separate chemical compound, but both have similar or identical 'chemical names' according to different companies. These are those two:

    Calcium Bis(Dinonylnaphthalenesulphonate)
    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/93828#section=Top
    which contains no barium, is included in Stadis 450 and goes by the following names:
    1. Calcium bis(dinonylnaphthalenesulphonate)
    2. Dinonylnaphthalenesulfonic acid, calcium salt
    3. EINECS 260-991-2
    4. calcium 2,3-di(nonyl)naphthalene-1-sulfonate
    5. calcium 2,3-dinonylnaphthalene-1-sulfonate
    6. AC1L3QZE
    7. 86329-66-0
    8. AN-39871
    9. LP114256
    10. LS-195532
    Then we have

    Naphthalenesulfonic acid, dinonyl-, barium salt
    https://pubchem.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/compound/160104#section=Top

    Which contains barium, is NOT included in the fuel additive we're discussing, yet goes by the following names

    1. Naphthalenesulfonic acid, dinonyl-, barium salt
    2. 25619-56-1
    3. Barium dinonylnaphthalenesulfonate
    4. EINECS 247-132-7
    5. NSC 49580
    6. Barium bis(dinonylnaphthalenesulphonate)
    7. Dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid barium salt
    8. barium(2+); 2,3-di(nonyl)naphthalene-1-sulfonate
    9. Naphthalenesulfonic acid, dinonyl-, barium salt (2:1)
    10. AC1L4N1T
    11. SCHEMBL163347
    12. C28H44O3S.1/2Ba
    13. CTK4F6119
    14. AR-1H7710
    15. AR-1H7711
    16. C28-H44-O3-S.1/2Ba
    17. AN-17800
    18. LP000555
    19. Bis(2,3-dinonyl-1-naphthalenesulfonic acid)barium salt
    20. BARIUM(2+) ION BIS(2,3-DINONYLNAPHTHALENE-1-SULFONATE)


    So if I'm not mistaken, this is two completely different chemical compounds that serve very similar functions in their industrial use and have very similar and confusing "Brand" names. Do I have this right @Mick West ?
     
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  5. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Not exactly, there are four chemicals mentioned.

    63512-64-1 Diisononylnaphthalene (a.k.a. dinonylnaphthalene)
    25322-17-2 Dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid
    25619-56-1 Dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid, barium salt
    57855-77-3 Dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid, calcium salt

    Dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid is what is in Stadis 450


    "dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid, barium salt" is the salt formed by adding barium to dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid. I should bold them in the OP.
     
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  6. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    I sent him the Stadis factsheet that showed there was no metal. He did not respond.
     
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  7. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Just to try and clear up any confusion on the naming. A salt is the compound you get when you react an acid with a base (bases are alkaline compounds).

    To take a common example, if you react hydrochloric acid with sodium hydroxide (aka caustic soda, or lye), you get a salt, sodium chloride. That's common table salt. If you used the same naming convention used in that fact sheet, you would call it "hydrochloric acid, sodium salt".

    In a salt, a hydrogen atom is knocked off the acid molecule and replaced by a metal atom, so hydrochloric acid, HCl, becomes sodium chloride, NaCl. Organic acids work the same way, e.g. acetic acid, CH3COOH can become sodium acetate, CH3COONa. Again, you could call it "acetic acid, sodium salt", but it is a totally different compound with totally different properties.

    From the description of Stadis 450, it is clear that dinonylnaphthalene sulfonic acid is the "aromatic solvent" in which the active ingredients are dissolved.

    (In chemical terminology, "aromatic" has a specific meaning: it doesn't mean it smells, it means it has a specific type of structure with a ring or rings of carbon atoms. The naphthalene part of the molecule, that is the double ring of carbon atoms, is aromatic.)
    IMG_8696.PNG

    This is a "sulfonic acid". The SO3H part is what makes it an acid, and that H is the hydrogen atom that would be replaced by barium in the salt.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
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  8. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    A likely source of confusion is the 'comma form' in CAS descriptions.

    From the "Naming and Indexing" abstract:
    Pages 2/3, my emphasis.

    https://www.cas.org/File Library/Training/STN/User Docs/indexguideapp.pdf
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  9. rezn8d

    rezn8d Jim Lee

    So the comma did trip me up. I can admit that... however. Don't think we are done here:



    Chemistry Characterization of Jet Aircraft Engine Particulate by XPS: Results From APEX III
    https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/20140012043.pdf

    Maybe that's why the CDC mentioned barium in jet fuel.... boom.
     
  10. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    Put some numbers on that. How much is mentioned. How much is in the detergent? Which detergent, and what lubricant? And how often is it used?

    And why is any of this significant?
     
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  11. rezn8d

    rezn8d Jim Lee

    It is significant because it is unknown... and I want to know.
    #Derp
     
  12. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    It shouldn't be hard to get hold of a sample of jet fuel and send it off for a full elemental analysis.
     
  13. Jay Reynolds

    Jay Reynolds Senior Member

    I think Jim has been told that before. Not hard to buy at smaller airports, less than $5/gallon.
    If he wants to know.......;)
     
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  14. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    Why not rely on Dr. Lohmann et al.?
    While their particle test was not quantitative, they had some Jet A1 analyzed, quite obviously to have some relative numbers to compare with the determined particle fractions. See slide 12.

    JetA1_Elements.

    Barium might be included with "others" (seems to cover elements under 1 ppmm). So not a significant amount in any case. Much less than trace elements in mineral water ...
     

    Attached Files:

  15. Mick West

    Mick West Administrator Staff Member

    20170123-113342-0d1ns.

    Seems like barium is pretty insignificant compared to other metals.
     
  16. JFDee

    JFDee Senior Member

    @rezn8d does put some numbers to Barium in jet fuel on his site. He quotes an analysis from 2000:
    Original source: Shumway 2000

    However, this does obviously not in the least support his claim that "chemtrails are full of Barium". Note that the unit here is ppb (parts per billion).
    Even Aluminum in military jet fuel (JP8) is just 9 ppm - compared to 3 ppm(m) in the ETH Jet A1 analysis.
    (Source: Chemtrails: The Shady Truth About Contrails)

    Once again: it's much more justified to claim that mineral water is "full of metals".
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2017
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  17. Trailblazer

    Trailblazer Moderator Staff Member

    Or that jet fuel is "full of calcium".

    Chemtrails: for healthy teeth and bones!
     
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  18. Landru

    Landru Moderator Staff Member

    It should be noted that jet-a is what commercial aircraft use. JP-5 and JP-8 are used by the Navy and the Air Force respectively.
     
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